Return of the English disease?

shane86

I have to admit, Ive been so busy over the past 7 days (working, drinking and recovering for the most part) that Ive barely seen the news/read the papers. However, any UK media coverage I have seen makes absoloutely no reference to any of the trouble coming from the English fans, and it wouldnt be the first time either. During the WC werent there many hundreds arrested? Although it seldom broke into huge gang violence there was the odd incident iirc, and I recall interviews with Irish people/bar owners in Frankfurt (I think) where they basically said that if you werent English you felt very threatened, that they were getting abusive with their "no surrender to the IRA" type of thing. But according to the English media it all went off without a hitch? It may be cops being heavy handed a little, but they always offer the same excuse: English fans drunk in a country where walking the streets with 10 pints in you simply isnt the cultural norm, and getting attacked when they get merry. Irish fans go abropad and drink until they cant walk, and we seldom get "attacked" by the cops.

Zebra3

Not sure of any links, but there was widespread rioting and looting at England's Euro84 qualifier in Luxembourg. Some Scousers even travelled over on one way tickets, looted jewellers, went off and stored the stuff at the lockers in the train station, and then went back to get arrested by the police at the rioting so they'd be deported (ie get home for free). When everything had died down a week later, they went back over to get all their stolen stuff.

If you have no idea of England fans rioting in Belgium at Euro2000, well ,what can I say?

Plenty of England fans rioting at Italia90 (including attacking Irish fans) as well as at Euro92. Pre-arranged signals when they turned on the local police and attacked them after some English started blowing whistles and chanting "Kill the Bill".

Rioting at France98 in Marseille.

And Euro80 in Italy and at Espana82.

Rioting in Oslo after their USA94 qualifier defeat.

Rioting in Dublin at Euro92 qualifier and 1995 friendly.

Sorry, if I've left anything out.

BaZmO*

Stekelly wrote:

On a seperate note, would the pl not be better off using those perspex barriers in english grounds rather than wasting 10 or so full rows of seats (from front to back) to seperate fans?

There was about 10-15 rows of empty seats either side of the perspex at the Roma game. That's why the Utd. fans weren't totally blameless for the trouble on account of the fact that they entered the cordoned off seating area to charge the perspex in retaliation to the Roma fans doing the same on their side.

Fratton Fred

Zebra3 wrote:

Not sure of any links, but there was widespread rioting and looting at England's Euro84 qualifier in Luxembourg. Some Scousers even travelled over on one way tickets, looted jewellers, went off and stored the stuff at the lockers in the train station, and then went back to get arrested by the police at the rioting so they'd be deported (ie get home for free). When everything had died down a week later, they went back over to get all their stolen stuff.

If you have no idea of England fans rioting in Belgium at Euro2000, well ,what can I say?

Plenty of England fans rioting at Italia90 (including attacking Irish fans) as well as at Euro92. Pre-arranged signals when they turned on the local police and attacked them after some English started blowing whistles and chanting "Kill the Bill".

Rioting at France98 in Marseille.

And Euro80 in Italy and at Espana82.

Rioting in Oslo after their USA94 qualifier defeat.

Rioting in Dublin at Euro92 qualifier and 1995 friendly.

Sorry, if I've left anything out.

sorry, I thought by the way you were saying it, it happened in the last decade:rolleyes:

got anything a bit more recent or are you trying to use a riot in Belgium 7 years ago as justification for spanish police beating people in wheel chairs?

Davidth88

Zebra3 ...

Most if not all of the things you mention are regarding the English national side. Ill be honest I wouldn't travel with the England it seems to bring out the worst in people , it's horrible.

What happened in Europe last week , and a few weeks ago in Lille was terrible .

The French CRS have always been known as a bunch of meathead thugs, ask any french person they will tell you the same thing. It seems that the Spanish/Italian police come from the same school

Please don't call this the ' English Disease ' I hate that term . What has happened in Italy recently would seem to show this term is now out of date.
It reminds me of the black times when Colin Moynahan tried to bring in ID cards and Maggie Thatcher was leading a hate campagn against Footie.

What happened in England was that partly because of Hillsbourgh the police reaslised that you are not a criminal just because you are going to a football game , and believe me pre-Hillsbourgh it was like that . They ( The police ) totally re-thought their stratagy and it seems to have worked.


Years ago ( 80s )I was at a Watford Vs Arsenal ( with my brother who is an Arsenal fan so we were in the away end ) game where the atmosphere was boysterous but not threatening . The police suddenly seemed to have enough and drew their batons ( trunchons ). Well it kicked off BIG TIME and all because the police became aggesive. My point being , the violence was caused by the police in this instance , it seemed that a lot of what i saw have read about was caused by the police last week.

therecklessone...... glad you got home safe , what a horrible experience ! I may hate rottenham but no-one deserves what happened on Thursday.

Zebra3

Fratton Fred wrote:

sorry, I thought by the way you were saying it, it happened in the last decade:rolleyes:

Never said anything about it happening in the last decade. You wanted to know of incidents involving English fans rioting abroad, so I threw a few examples in off the top of my head.

Fratton Fred wrote:

got anything a bit more recent or are you trying to use a riot in Belgium 7 years ago as justification for spanish police beating people in wheel chairs?

What gives you the impresion that I'm using a riot in Belgium in 2000 to justify someone in a wheelchair being attacked? Do you enjoy making stuff like that up? :rolleyes:

If you're looking for more recent trouble involving England fans, there's the widespread violence that accompained their 5-1 win in Munich in September 2001. Since then there has been very few "attractive" fixtures abroad* for England fans to cause trouble although there were running battles caused by English fans inside the ground during their Euro2004 qualifier in Bratislava, and I think there was also trouble during a recent friendly in Amsterdam.

*They more sense than to kick if off in places like Poland, Albania, Greece, and Azerbaijan.

redspider

From viewing the footage (6:51) on that Italian website, the planned 'gap' between the sets of fans was breached by BOTH sets of fans. The ground stewards who had orange tops on were 'ran through/past' by the Roma fans as a result of the goal and who then (were) stopped at the perspex barrier. The Man Utd fans as a voluntary response 'ran past/through' their stewards and were on their way to the perspex barrier when the Riot Police came down and forced/beat them back.

Note that NOTHING made the Man Utd fans leave their seats - they did so of their own FREEWILL and entered an area that they KNEW was off-limits. They were not oblivious to the Stewards positioning and the reason of their position or the reason as to why there was a gap of empty seats. So, they knew what they were doing.

Its true that the Police came down heavy, and it looks like a kid/youth was caught up in it and some fans took particular grievance to that. However, many fans did not return to their seats and watch the football game. No, instead they organised themselves and started 'having a go' at the Police which brought on another Police backlash.

One thing that should be pointed out is that NONE of the Man Utd supporters were hit in an area of the stands/seating that they shouldn't have been in. That is a clear indicator of 'guilt by position' if nothing else. Clearly, many innocent people or at least those not causing trouble at the time were caught up in it.

I dont think any neutral observer would say that 100% of Man Utd fans were innocent on what went on.

I havent seen as much detailed footage of the Roma side.

Is there anyone with any credibility still defending the Man Utd fans?

I dont think so ...... and Uefa wont either, although they dont have the wherewithal to do anything about it before tonight's return leg.

redspider

Zebra3

Davidth88 wrote:

Zebra3 ...

Most if not all of the things you mention are regarding the English national side. Ill be honest I wouldn't travel with the England it seems to bring out the worst in people , it's horrible.

What happened in Europe last week , and a few weeks ago in Lille was terrible .

The French CRS have always been known as a bunch of meathead thugs, ask any french person they will tell you the same thing. It seems that the Spanish/Italian police come from the same school

Please don't call this the ' English Disease ' I hate that term . What has happened in Italy recently would seem to show this term is now out of date.
It reminds me of the black times when Colin Moynahan tried to bring in ID cards and Maggie Thatcher was leading a hate campagn against Footie.

What happened in England was that partly because of Hillsbourgh the police reaslised that you are not a criminal just because you are going to a football game , and believe me pre-Hillsbourgh it was like that . They ( The police ) totally re-thought their stratagy and it seems to have worked.


Years ago ( 80s )I was at a Watford Vs Arsenal ( with my brother who is an Arsenal fan so we were in the away end ) game where the atmosphere was boysterous but not threatening . The police suddenly seemed to have enough and drew their batons ( trunchons ). Well it kicked off BIG TIME and all because the police became aggesive. My point being , the violence was caused by the police in this instance , it seemed that a lot of what i saw have read about was caused by the police last week.

therecklessone...... glad you got home safe , what a horrible experience ! I may hate rottenham but no-one deserves what happened on Thursday.

I posted the stuff about the English NT's fans cos Bateman was talking about their behaviour and Fratton Fred wanted links as if English NT fans were angels or something. :rolleyes:

As I said earlier the term the "English Disease" is widely used by the English media and is done so because England was the first to "export" it's hooligan problems.

redspider

BaZmO* wrote:

There was about 10-15 rows of empty seats either side of the perspex at the Roma game. That's why the Utd. fans weren't totally blameless for the trouble on account of the fact that they entered the cordoned off seating area to charge the perspex in retaliation to the Roma fans doing the same on their side.

agreed .....

although I would change:

weren't totally blameless for

to:

were to blame for the Riot Police treatment of

Jazzy

nipplenuts wrote:

Maybe this should be in Politics, but, given recent events involving English clubs in Europe, is it time Uefa took action and forced the English to clean up their act?

a stupid unfounded reactionary comment.
go back to 1921

GuanYin

Lads, calm down and keep it civil.

shane86

Fratton Fred wrote:

sorry, I thought by the way you were saying it, it happened in the last decade:rolleyes:

got anything a bit more recent or are you trying to use a riot in Belgium 7 years ago as justification for spanish police beating people in wheel chairs?

There was trouble at Euro 2004, and some minor rioting at the WC iirc.The English media gave it little coverage. And, while not abroad, there was very serious trouble at a Millwall match in Birmingham.

Fratton Fred

shane86 wrote:

There was trouble at Euro 2004, and some minor rioting at the WC iirc.The English media gave it little coverage.

The English Media gave it a lot of coverage, there is nothing more the English red tops like than a good story about English thugs abroad, the reality is the "Violence" that involved the English was fairly minor.

There are a lot of people travel with England, I think there were 100,000 in Germany for the Portugal game, when 100,000 people are drinking all day there will be arrests, I think during the world cup there were 120 England fans arrested, with a handful charged. compare those numbers with Dublin on a Saturday night (or the 400 odd arrested after the Germany Poland game).

In Portugal for Euro04, there were 53 English people arrested during the tournament, most of whom were not charged with anything.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of thugs who would like nothing better than going on the bi-annual fight fest that is the european cup or the world cup and thankfully most of them have been served with banning orders which prevents them from travelling.

But, hey, lets drag up something that hapened 23 years ago cos it's another excuse to have a dig at the English:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Zebra3 wrote:

*They more sense than to kick if off in places like Poland, Albania, Greece, and Azerbaijan.

One minute the English are thugs, the next they are cowards.

Careful, your true colours are showing:rolleyes:

leninbenjamin

Sky news reporting violence at Old trafford already. clashes between Roma fans and Police, Sky news seem to be suggesting that some Roma fans are looking for a fight (questioning reliability of sky here).

certainly puts and end to the debate that its an "English" disease if these reports are true.

Chucky the tree

leninbenjamin wrote:

Sky news reporting violence at Old trafford already. clashes between Roma fans and Police, Sky news seem to be suggesting that some Roma fans are looking for a fight (questioning reliability of sky here).

certainly puts and end to the debate that its an "English" disease if these reports are true.

I find it funny that whens its the united fans involved with clashes with the Italian police its the italian police who were at fault but when the Roma fans get in a fight with english police, its all the Roma fans's fault.

leninbenjamin

Chucky the tree wrote:

I find it funny that whens its the united fans involved with clashes with the Italian police its the italian police who were at fault but when the Roma fans get in a fight with english police, its all the Roma fans's fault.

i blame the police dogs. they really looked up for a fight, barking and straining on the leads.

Sky keep blaming the Roma fans, emphasisng it everytime the repeat themselves (they like to do that a lot on Sky). Just flicked over to RTÉ there, they seemed to suggest it was inter fan clashes that caused it all. Stuff been thrown and all that jazz... on the footage Sky keep showing, anyone involved the fights was wearing black and you can't pin down which club they are from, seemed more like there was a group there looking for a fight, be it English or Italian i can't say.

It seemed to be over pretty fast. something like nine arrests, and a few fans bleeding after being at the receiving end of missiles

~Rebel~

leninbenjamin wrote:

they seemed to suggest it was inter fan clashes that caused it all.

Had me all confused there! was wondering what the f**k Inter fans were doin there!

Stuff been thrown and all that jazz... on the footage Sky keep showing, anyone involved the fights was wearing black and you can't pin down which club they are from, seemed more like there was a group there looking for a fight, be it English or Italian i can't say.

Reports that the fans in black were speaking english..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/10/nroma110.xml

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

griffdaddy

~Rebel~ wrote:

Reports that the fans in black were speaking english..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/10/nroma110.xml

Those Italian hooligans are getting smarter every week!

bohsman

Fratton Fred wrote:

One minute the English are thugs, the next they are cowards.

Careful, your true colours are showing:rolleyes:

They are cowards because they have common sense?

Zebra3

Fratton Fred wrote:

One minute the English are thugs, the next they are cowards.

Careful, your true colours are showing:rolleyes:

What true clours are these? If you are trying to say something why don't you instead of trying to play down the undeniable.

The comment I made was in reference to the well-known attitude of England's hooligans. Kick it off in western European countries when in huge numbers where the likelihood is that the worst thing that will happen to them is they'll be deported. They never go and kick it off in eastern European countries where they could be locked up for years on end or attacked with petrol bombs by the locals.

They are both thugs and cowards.

Fratton Fred

Zebra3 wrote:

What true clours are these? If you are trying to say something why don't you instead of trying to play down the undeniable.

The comment I made was in reference to the well-known attitude of England's hooligans. Kick it off in western European countries when in huge numbers where the likelihood is that the worst thing that will happen to them is they'll be deported. They never go and kick it off in eastern European countries where they could be locked up for years on end or attacked with petrol bombs by the locals.

They are both thugs and cowards.

I think you are saying enough.

Zebra3

Fratton Fred wrote:

I think you are saying enough.

In what way? Why don't you come out and say directly what you mean?

Jazzy

this thread is as pointless as it is stupid

therecklessone

Hitting people with batons...how typically Spanish

Spotted at Seville's La Liga game at the weekend. Respect.

GuanYin

Why don't you both STF.

Look - I made a very very clear point earlier on about what was and wasn't on in this thread.

Zebra - I don't think you can show anything other than your opinion that hooliganism is an English disease. Seria A has a huge, long and recent history of real nasty violence that is still common today, even in European games. Italian football was shut down after a cop was killed not 2 months ago. Nothing on that scale has happened in recent years in the UK.

South America is infamous for some large scale riots at sporting events and even the US has seen some very very serious riots at sporting events in the last 20 years.

As for the UK being the only ones to export hooliganism? Look up the behaviour of the German fans in WC1998. Leeds and Middlesboro fans have both been attacked and seriously wounded in italy - both events wer eblamed on extremist Roma fans - Roma being one of the most notorious groups in Italy - read the history of violence at Rome derbies.

Oh and lets not forget Turkey - Irish fans and players have had a very rough time there - lest we forget.

Now - you've made some rather biggoted accusations on this thread. Either show that the level of incidents of hooliganism from English is statistically higher than other countries - or drop it. It

That isn't a polite request. If you make another widespread inflammatory post without backingit up with links, you'll be taking a break.

Mr. Presentable

All the major leagues have/had a hooliganism problem. My initial point as OP was that what had appeared in recent years to have been a good job by the English in particular in dealing with their problem, now seems to be coming undone.

In spades.

Look at OT tonight. The police transported Roma fans directly to the stadium and, it not being open, left said fans exposed to their hosts. I have read up and down this thread Man U fans (in the main, but not exclusively) spouting on about how they are victims in this, how English fans in France, Spain and Italy have all been victims. Time for them to lift their siege mentality and wise up. Tonight we have Rome fans coralled in England and pelted with missiles outside a locked OT.

Psi, the trait of hooliganism has long been referred as the English disease. There is nothing racist in this, any more than calling chips French fries is racist, from my point of view at least.

Jazzy

nipplenuts wrote:

All the major leagues have/had a hooliganism problem. My initial point as OP was that what had appeared in recent years to have been a good job by the English in particular in dealing with their problem, now seems to be coming undone.

In spades.

Look at OT tonight. The police transported Roma fans directly to the stadium and, it not being open, left said fans exposed to their hosts. I have read up and down this thread Man U fans (in the main, but not exclusively) spouting on about how they are victims in this, how English fans in France, Spain and Italy have all been victims. Time for them to lift their siege mentality and wise up. Tonight we have Rome fans coralled in England and pelted with missiles outside a locked OT.

Psi, the trait of hooliganism has long been referred as the English disease. There is nothing racist in this, any more than calling chips French fries is racist, from my point of view at least.

frankly, ur talking sh1t. get back to 1921

therecklessone

nipplenuts wrote:

My initial point as OP was that what had appeared in recent years to have been a good job by the English in particular in dealing with their problem, now seems to be coming undone.

In spades.

How so?

Hooliganism never went away, it was simply contained and curtailed by effective policing. Inside grounds it has disappeared, would you care to show me where the fan/fan clashes or fan/police clashes took place tonight inside Old Trafford?

[edit]Events in Italy/Spain hardly show the work of the English authorities unravelling[/edit]

nipplenuts wrote:

Look at OT tonight. The police transported Roma fans directly to the stadium and, it not being open, left said fans exposed to their hosts. I have read up and down this thread Man U fans (in the main, but not exclusively) spouting on about how they are victims in this, how English fans in France, Spain and Italy have all been victims. Time for them to lift their siege mentality and wise up. Tonight we have Rome fans coralled in England and pelted with missiles outside a locked OT.

The reports I've seen mentioned a confrontation by a small number of ManYoo hooligans (Will Smith and his chums) outside the entrance to OT followed by a number of confrontations between Roma supporters and Greater Manchester Police. Neither group of fans covered themselves in glory, but I'll say this...GMP behaved far better than their Roman counterparts.

I resent the implication you make that fans of English teams claim victim status, in my case in Spain. I was assaulted by a thug in uniform for no justifiable reason, and I personally know of many others who tell the same story. No fan/fan confrontation occured in Seville. The behaviour of our fans post beating was less than exemplary, but wholly understandable given the extreme provocation.

nipplenuts wrote:

Psi, the trait of hooliganism has long been referred as the English disease. There is nothing racist in this, any more than calling chips French fries is racist, from my point of view at least.

If you were as knowledgeable as you like to think, you'd be aware that English hooliganism never went away. Why the do you ask is it returning, and suggest that the English authorities need to do something to combat its return?

therecklessone

Jazzy wrote:

frankly, ur talking sh1t. get back to 1921

You are adding nothing to this debate.

Mr. Presentable

Jazzy wrote:

frankly, ur talking sh1t. get back to 1921

Nice, Jazzy. Real classy.

mike65

Someone close this please.

Mike.

bohsman

mike65 wrote:

Someone close this please.

Mike.

Ignore it like the English media do?

mike65

Er nope. This thread is played out.

Mike.

GuanYin

nipplenuts wrote:

Psi, the trait of hooliganism has long been referred as the English disease. There is nothing racist in this, any more than calling chips French fries is racist, from my point of view at least.

I'm not that bothered by the term, otherwise I'd have renamed the thread.

I am concerend about some of the opinions expressed here which basically paint the issue as an English originating one that isn't as bad anywhere else.

GuanYin

Right. Enough of this crap. Jazzy - consider youself on a warning - if you have nothing intelligent to contribute, don't bother.

Zebra - I'll be watching your posts with great interest.