Licence Fee Increases - Shooters Quite Unhappy.

FLAG

Hi Folks

An update, it appears that the renewals for 2007/8 will be for a single year, the three year licensing will not come into force until 2008.

Now the bad news reference the 2007 Finance act, when the three year lisence comes in 2008:
Rifle/pistol/revolver €170.00 each/3 years
Shotgun €115.00

Get this this Firearms Training cert aimed at 14 year olds and above, €170 for a rifle/pistol/revolver and €115.00 for a shotgun. Kinda defeats the purpose of introducing young people to the sport:

Range authorisations a snip at €1,000.00

And reloading certificate €90.00

Talk about rip off Ireland, any individual involved in the sport will really suffer!

Tourist rip off as well, €57.00 for a yearly pistol/revolver and rifle, so much for encouraging international competition to Ireland.

In any case extracts attached?

Now we need to see what can be done to change this, election coming up, lets see what 250,000 firearms lisence holders have to say!!!

Declan
FLAG

Clare gunner

Kind of odd E30 for a "prohibited weapon"??? How do you liscense somthing legally that is prohibited????

bullets

Might be a good time to ask for specific's on what happens
the money that we pay for the certs. and break down on
way its used. Be nice if some of it was used to in some way help
out the sport. It does not cost all that much for someone to punch in your
details into a computer and rubber stamp a bit of paper.

Surely under the freedom of information act that such a request could be
made (or can it?)

On the Ms office attachement is shows licence price for Crossbows ??
Did not think you could legally licence one in Ireland.

~B

Kramer

Absolute RIP OFF :mad: .

3 rifles, a couple of shotguns, a .22 pistol & the occassional bit of reloading.....

€1000 come renewal time :eek:

Another nice little earner for the cash starved boys in Leinster House.

Kramer

Clare gunner wrote:

Kind of odd E30 for a "prohibited weapon"??? How do you liscense somthing legally that is prohibited????

Sounds like a bargain to me! €170 (rifle) vs €30 (prohibited, whatever that might be???) .

Only in Ireland, only in Ireland.................

prohibited weapon licence :rolleyes:

FLAG

Clare gunner wrote:

Kind of odd E30 for a "prohibited weapon"??? How do you liscense somthing legally that is prohibited????

Lads

Don't get the nickers in a twist about prohibited weapons, the definition is ala the 1925 Firearms Legislation and does not reflect modern weapons for what you might think, they were then gas guns etc.

Clare gunner

So does that mean you can legally posses a can of Mace[prohibited weapon within the meanings of th FA 1925] if you apply for a E30 liscense.:rolleyes:

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Now we need to see what can be done to change this, election coming up, lets see what 250,000 firearms lisence holders have to say!!!

How about "Don't call us Declan, we'll call you".

Honestly. As if noone saw this hike in charges coming from ten miles off. And now you're advocating what, that we go in to the Minister and tell him we'll vote him out for it, when we have no say in the matter?

Tell you what, if you have such a good working relationship with the man, why not go off and get this fixed?

:rolleyes:

We warned you this would happen, and you ignored us, and now clubs have to come up with a grand just to get their licence and even more to come up to spec in the first place, the demands on us as shooters have gone up just as much, and you're expecting us to row in behind you on another Don Quixote job?

I could sum up my response in about two words, but I don't think they could play it on radio if I did. :mad:

DJKH

Sparks wrote:

How about "Don't call us Declan, we'll call you".

Honestly. As if noone saw this hike in charges coming from ten miles off. And now you're advocating what, that we go in to the Minister and tell him we'll vote him out for it, when we have no say in the matter?

Tell you what, if you have such a good working relationship with the man, why not go off and get this fixed?

:rolleyes:

We warned you this would happen, and you ignored us, and now clubs have to come up with a grand just to get their licence and even more to come up to spec in the first place, the demands on us as shooters have gone up just as much, and you're expecting us to row in behind you on another Don Quixote job?

I could sum up my response in about two words, but I don't think they could play it on radio if I did. :mad:

Well Mark, there you go again, pi**ing me off with your unnecessary comments, if you think I had any direct responsibility for a decision made by the department of finance then you are badly mistaken.

We met with DOJ yesterday and a lot more progress was made on all matters.

But I am not going to open the door for more abuse by you, just pi** off and go argue with someone else, god knows you have lots of choice.

Declan

Please note this is a personal response.

Sparks

We met with DOJ yesterday and a lot more progress was made on all matters....
...But I am not going to open the door for more abuse by you,

Awwww.
You met behind closed doors with the DoJ representing me, but you won't tell me what happened?
I'm hurt.
Now, I'm going to have to officially demand a transcript from your boss in my capacity as secretary of the NTSA.
Gosh, that'll take all of three minutes.
What an inconvienence.

Sparks

Now, I'm going to have to officially demand a transcript from your boss in my capacity as secretary of the NTSA.

Done.
And in the event that he takes too long, I'll submit an FOI request to the DoJ.

Or, you could stop being childish, do your job, and circulate the results.

Your call.

Sparks

DJKH wrote:

We met with DOJ yesterday and a lot more progress was made on all matters.

By the way, you didn't point this out, but I think it's relevant; the Dail goes into recess shortly and every analyst is saying that the Minister won't be returned; so any "progress" you made is pretty much worthless anyway.

sidneyreilly

ENOUGH OF THE SLAGGINGS!!! This totally non productive. Get on with discussing mechanisms to counter this.

Sparks

Get on with discussing mechanisms to counter this.

Sidney, have you read the Act? We're boned, probably for the next few years.
The only thing that comes to mind is to sack the lot that got us into this mess in the first place and then try to start from scratch, because that's where we are at the moment.

Sparks

From the NARGC's page:
Proposed Firearms Licence
Renewal Prices as per the Finance Bill
Now x 3 Years Proposed per Finance Bill

Unlimited Shotgun Licence € 25 € 75 € 115
Limited Shotgun Licence € 6 € 18 € 30
Second and Subsequent € 6 € 18 € 30

Rifle € 38 € 114 € 170
Subsequent € 38 € 114 € 170

Junior Training Gun - - € 115
Junior Training Rifle - - € 170

Club Range Authorisation - - € 1,000
Firearms Dealer € 340

A 5 year Gun Licence in Nth. Ireland costs Stg£50 (€77) per
person for ALL firearms held !!

rrpc

I have to agree with Sparks here, the whole purpose if getting the 3 year licence introduced was (supposedly) to bring us into line with Northern Ireland and licence the holder rather than the firearm.

Instead of which we get this ballsed up interpretation and an excuse to rip us off.

Somebody certainly wasn't watching the ball here.

This is completely FUBAR

And as Sparks said, you'd want to have been fast asleep to not see this coming.

Vegeta

This is a joke.

Clare gunner

Lads,I hate to say it but did we honestly expect NOT to be ripped off in Ripoff Ireland????Or that we would actually do somthing in line with our EU neighbours,like a 5 year cert ala the UK???Or that it would be cheap & reasonable???
Anyways,no point in pussing about the spilt pint now,or bitching amongst ourselves. It will happen,if we dont do somthing about it.Hint ,hint election looming,opinions on the doorstep??]
And this is one thing that now affects ALL shooters.No one can sit this one out.Soo maybe we would be all better involved in thinking how to counter this somwhat,than slagging each other?????

Sparks

Lads,I hate to say it but did we honestly expect NOT to be ripped off in Ripoff Ireland?

No, that's why I kept saying that the three year licence was not any kind of boon that we'd gotten, and certainly not one that was worth the rest of the crap in the Firearms Act.
And please, don't be suggesting that just because this affects all shooters that we should row in behind DK's don quixote antics.
I'm ticked off enough at having to fork out over €500 in licence fees for no good reason while he runs about saying the Act is a good thing and that it's all for the best. :mad:

sidneyreilly

Sparks wrote:

Sidney, have you read the Act? We're boned, probably for the next few years.
The only thing that comes to mind is to sack the lot that got us into this mess in the first place and then try to start from scratch, because that's where we are at the moment.

And replace them with whom Sparks? You will not find many volunteers who wish to put themselves in the position to get regularly chastised on a public board. And remember apart from NARGC we are talking volunteers, such people who would volunteer would soon get disillusioned and chuck in the towel.

Anyway, enough of that. CG is correct, time to move ahead. Petition? March on the Dail?

Sparks

You've got to be kidding me sidney. You won't find volunteers so lets leave the same people in there to talk to the government in our names despite them having screwed the pooch beyond all recognition in the same job so far?

That's like saying that you wouldn't find too many volunteers to sit in the henhouse, so you may as well leave it to the fox!

Feck's sake.

And I notice that the NRPAI/SSAI/WhomeverWeAreToday didn't even blink at this supposed lack of volunteerism when they doubled the size of the NRPAI committee. And that groups like the ICPSA have no such troubles with finding volunteers to run assocations. And that all our local gun clubs and target shooting clubs don't stop overnight because suddenly people cease to volunteer.

And "put themselves in the position to get regularly chastised on a public board"? They wouldn't be in that position if they didn't hide what they did behind closed doors all the bloody time!!!

You want to move ahead? Forget about it. Until we sort out this sheer stupidity in how we have our associations set up, we aren't going to ever be able to move forward, and we all know it.

oldzed

lads , section 67(2) of the finance bill quotes that - an excise duty of €405 shall be charged ,levied and paid on every authorisation to posess, use, carry, sell or expose for sale a restricted firearm that is granted or renewed on or after 1 aug 2007.

I would really like to know whats on the restricted list now as the 995€ license bill I am facing could turn into 2365€ depending on inclusions or exclusions and much as i love and spend on the sport , I cant afford that.

If anybody has any idea I would love to hear it .

a very concerned oldzed

sidneyreilly

Sparks, anyone who would be stepping in to replace personal in SSAI or whatever organization would be going in at the deepend without some establishment in place. It would be disastrous.

Also you need not lecture me on volunteering, I do more voluntary things for shooting then I frankly have time for, same as your good self. You would not however find me volunteering for a "clean slate" committee of the umbrella body for shooting sports in the country. If such a group requires change then it needs to be gradual.

Anyway, again we have gone away from problem at hand, any suggestions as to how to counter this? Petitions etc..?

oldzed

page 124 from the link below
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/finance%20bill%202007/FinanceBill2007.pdf

civdef

This is a friggin bummer.

Sparks

oldzed wrote:

lads , section 67(2) of the finance bill quotes that - an excise duty of €405 shall be charged ,levied and paid on every authorisation to posess, use, carry, sell or expose for sale a restricted firearm that is granted or renewed on or after 1 aug 2007.

Well. I have to admit, I thought they'd be less straightforward than that, but I guess it'll do the job they intended the restricted list to do, namely, a de facto ban.

I would really like to know whats on the restricted list now as the 995€ license bill I am facing could turn into 2365€ depending on inclusions or exclusions and much as i love and spend on the sport , I cant afford that.

So would I but what I've heard is that the SI the bodies were shown has now been changed (by having things added to it). I haven't seen the new SI, but from what I hear, unless you're shooting with air pistol, air or .22lr rifle or shotgun, it's on the list.

Sparks

sidneyreilly wrote:

Sparks, anyone who would be stepping in to replace personal in SSAI or whatever organization would be going in at the deepend without some establishment in place. It would be disastrous.

Really? How interesting. Tell me sidney, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU CALL THIS THEN?

If such a group requires change then it needs to be gradual.

If? If?
And gradual? We've just gradually gotten ourselves to a point where we can just about kiss our sport goodbye. We're now up there with sailing or golf in terms of how much you have to lay out to start, and we don't have their appeal to the executive looking to do very little and have a few drinks on a sunny weekend.

Anyway, again we have gone away from problem at hand, any suggestions as to how to counter this? Petitions etc..?

I've asked a few friends in the Greens and Labour for ideas, but I don't know of any legal mechanism to counter this, because it's all perfectly legal thanks to the Firearms Act 2006. We might have had a chance with petitions and the like before the CJB went through. Now, we're right up the creek without a paddle.

Sparks

See, this is what happens when I read Declan's interpretation of legislation instead of reading it myself directly.

According to the Finance Bill 2007, these new charges come into effect this year, not in 2008.

The relevant phrase being on or after August 1, 2007.
Meaning I have to stump up €510 in 5 months time. Cheers for that there Declan, nice bit of representing, that.
:mad:

civdef

I suppose there's no chance we can discuss the issue without the personal stuff? Far too important to be clouded with grudges and digs.

Sparks

You'll have to excuse me civ, I just learnt I need to find €500 from somewhere in a fairly tight budget on a fairly tight timescale, because of a firearms act I opposed from the moment we saw it, while Declan said I was an idiot for doing so and that the act was a great success. And now that we're starting to see the hammer come down, all he can say is "oh well, let's move on". No apology for screwing the pooch, no admission that the way things were done was wrong, no hope that maybe we'd learn from our mistakes and change our approach, no, it's just straight back up onto the back of that donkey and straight back at the windmill. :mad:
And to top it off, he goes off saying that he's meeting the DoJ on our behalf but won't give us the details?
I've had enough of it. I'm done with FLAG and the NRPAI/SSAI/Whatever and I've had it up to here with this "fight The Man" approach.

sidneyreilly

civdef wrote:

I suppose there's no chance we can discuss the issue without the personal stuff? Far too important to be clouded with grudges and digs.

Yes please