Licence Fee Increases - Shooters Quite Unhappy.

Sparks

No, not given the events of the last 24 hours o_p. It'd be a hiding to nowhere for the next week or so at least. You'd just be inviting the start of a pro/anti-gun control debate and not only has that nothing to do with this, it'd be in incredibly poor taste, and just once, I'd like to avoid the glee that people seem to exude when descending on tragedies like these with pro- or anti-gun arguments (and frankly, both camps piss me off in equal measure when they do that).

Still no responses from the politicians.. bar Lisa MacDonald

sidneyreilly

I recieved in the post a latter from Bernard J. Durkan T.D. of Kildare North Constituency. In brief he has initiated urgent enquiries on my behalf. Very nice letter, very encouraging:D Thing is, I am not one of his constituents!!! In fact I have not had a single response from my local representatives out of all the emails:mad:

Am not impressed!

Anyhoo, anyone in the Kildare North area take note.Drop him a line.

maglite

Got a reply from the tainiste's sec today
usual akk of reciet

but no sig no heading no time takem

Rew

sidneyreilly wrote:

I recieved in the post a latter from Bernard J. Durkan T.D. of Kildare North Constituency. In brief he has initiated urgent enquiries on my behalf. Very nice letter, very encouraging:D Thing is, I am not one of his constituents!!! In fact I have not had a single response from my local representatives out of all the emails:mad:

Am not impressed!

Anyhoo, anyone in the Kildare North area take note.Drop him a line.

Emailed him but had no answer

flight93

The issue and renewal of firearm certificates are subject to the payment of excise duty. Under the provisions of the Firearms Act 1925 firearms certificates must be renewed annually on the 1st August. Currently firearm certificates and registrations of firearms dealers are subject to an excise duty and are renewed annually from 1st August. The current rates were set in 1992. Changes provided for in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 mean that from the 31 December 2007 firearm certificates will be renewable every 3 years from the date of issue.

Provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2006, which have yet to be commenced, will mean that firearm certificates and firearms dealers' registrations will be renewable every 3 years from the date of issue/registration. Administration of firearm certificates/registrations is dealt with by the Garda Síochána with the excise duty collected being remitted to the Revenue Commissioners. The rationale for moving from an annual to a three-year lifespan for these certificates/registrations is primarily to free up Garda time and resources.

The Bill provides in Sections 61 to 67 inclusive, for the excise rates to be increased to current day values and adjusted in accordance with this 3 year change. In addition to the changes to existing arrangements, the Criminal Justice Act 2006 introduces a number of new categories of certificate/authorisation/licence to which excise duties are now being imposed.

The Garda Síochána administer the issue and renewal of firearm certificates and collect the excise duty payable. The excise duty collected by the Garda Síochána is remitted to the Revenue Commissioners.

The rates of duty, which were last adjusted in 1992, are being updated to take account of increases in the consumer price index since that time and the 3-year period of validity of firearm certificates. The current rates and the proposed new rates are:

Rates of Excise Duty on Firearm Certificates
Description of Firearm Certificate Current Rate of Duty
(1 Year) New Rates of Duty
(3Years)
Certificate for pistol, revolver, or rifle €38 €170
Limited* certificate for a shot-gun
Second and each subsequent limited certificate for a shot-gun €6
€6 €30
€30
Unlimited* Certificate for a shot-gun
Second and each subsequent unlimited certificate for a shot-gun €25
€6 €115
€30
Certificate for crossbow
Second and each subsequent certificate for crossbow €25
€6 €115
€30
Certificate for prohibited weapon €6 €30





Background
Section 9 of the Firearms Act 1925 provided for the establishment of the Register of Firearms Dealers. In order to operate as a firearms dealer a person must be registered in the Register of Firearms Dealers. Registration is subject to the payment of an excise duty. Until now registration had to be renewed annually as and from the 1st August. The annual renewal was also subject to the payment of excise duty.

The Criminal Justice Act 2006 amended the Firearms Act 1925 to provide, among other things, that the registration of a firearms dealer will be renewable every 3 years from the date of registration. The change comes into effect on 31 December 2007.

The Garda Síochána administer the registration of firearm dealers and collect the excise duty payable on registration and the renewal of registration. The excise duty collected is remitted to the Revenue Commissioners.

The excise duty rates on the registration of firearms dealers have been adjusted to reflect (a) consumer price index increases since the current rates were set in 1992 and (b) the fact that registration now lasts for 3 years. There are 2 rates of duty, a ‘full’ rate of €75 per year and a ‘reduced’ annual rate of €12 which applies to those firearms dealers who are registered for the purpose of selling ammunition only.

The consumer price index has risen by 51% since 1992 when the current rates of excise duty were set. The proposed new 3-year rates have been rounded to, respectively, €340 and €55.


Regards,

PAT CAREY, T.D.

(01 6183377 / 01 8644118)








17 April, 2007




Dear Mr. XXXXX,

I write to acknowledge receipt of your e-mail dated 12 April, 2007 which I will bring to the Tánaiste's attention.

Yours sincerely,




_______________________
Private Secretary

"Laura B. Grainger" <Laura_B._Grainger@justice.ie>



Dear XXXXXXX,

Thank you for your email outlining your dissatisfaction with the changes the Minister for Justice has made with regard to the system for the renewal of licence fees for firearms in the Republic of Ireland and also the increase of the licensing fee by 50%.

I am in contact with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in this regard and as soon as I receive a reply from him I will be in contact with you.

Kind regards

Yours sincerely,

Liz McManus, TD
Deputy Leader and Spokesperson on Health




Dear XXXXXXXX
Thank you for your email. Please find enclosed copy of Press
Statement I
issued.
Best wishes

Billy Timmins


TIMMINS CALLS ON GOVERNMENT TO DROP GUN LICENCE STEALTH TAX


Deputy Billy Timmins has called on the Government to desist from
increasing the cost of gun licences. The Government proposes to
increase
the three year rifle licence fee from €114 to €170 and a shotgun
licence
from €75 to €115.

Deputy Timmins pointed out that this is just another stealth tax and
none of this money is reinvested in the sport. In addition Timmins
said
that the Minister for Justice would be better occupied if he ensured
that people who were getting gun licences received some training on
the
weapon before they received authorisation to use it.

End

maglite

So the Question we should ask is does he support licence fee increases in line with inflation / a price rise of 50$ in licence fees

then publish the info that he supports such an increase!!!!!

babybundy

Certificate for prohibited weapon €6 €30
wats a prohibited weapon and how can it be licenced if its prohibited

Clare gunner

I asked that question a few pages back Baby.Seems to relate to Mace and such like[prohibited as they fit into the 1925 descrpition perfectly].And as it stands is just a burrocratic idiocy!No one obviously read this act and just slapped a rise on it.:(
Pat Carey just looks like he likes waffling and telling people things they already know.:(

rrpc

OK, seeing as no-one else did this, I had a quick trawl around and this is what I've come up with:

Driving licences (also considered an excise duty) were last increased in the 1989 Finance Act when they were increased from £17 to £20. (10 year licence).

The current licence fee is €25 (which is a rough translation of £20 into euros, the correct translation would be €25.39).

So what we're paying now has been in place for 18 years.

I think we should tell people to expect a 60% increase in their driving licence fee from the current government.

So that would be €40 then.......

Vegeta

rrpc wrote:

OK, seeing as no-one else did this, I had a quick trawl around and this is what I've come up with:

Driving licences (also considered an excise duty) were last increased in the 1989 Finance Act when they were increased from £17 to £20. (10 year licence).

The current licence fee is €25 (which is a rough translation of £20 into euros, the correct translation would be €25.39).

So what we're paying now has been in place for 18 years.

I think we should tell people to expect a 60% increase in their driving licence fee from the current government.

So that would be €40 then.......

This is perfect well done rrpc this is exactly the kind of counter arguement we need. Well spotted

ArthurJ

rrpc wrote:

I think we should tell people to expect a 60% increase in their driving licence fee from the current government.

So that would be €40 then.......

Well done. Thats the sort of info we need.

rrpc

Thanks folks


Who's going to do passports?

Clare gunner

Another two replies from Peter Power[FF] and Tony Kileen[FF] minister of???
Personal reply from P Power,[local TD to me].acknowledgement from Kileen.
Well, we are making alot of noise and it seems we are getting thru to them.:D

Vegeta

I think we have made ourselves heard but now we need to keep on their radar.

I think in the next 2 days e-mail everyone who said they'd look into it and on friday blitz the lot again.

We need to show them we are not going away on this.

There are 6 votes in my house alone, 3 of us are shooters

N.O.I.P.

Hey Guys I'm not sure it was needed but since I have been toying with the idea of taking up target shooting I thought I'd fire off some emails about this too. It turned out to be a little longer than I had planned but I hope it helps.

Good Afternoon

I am writing to you to express my grave concerns over an issue that has only recently been brought to my attention. The issue in question is the seemingly groundless and quite frankly extortionate raise in the firearms license fee.

Under the new system a firearms license will now be valid for a period of three years and a direct by-product of this will be a vast decrease in the amount of clerical work for the Gardai. Thus increasing the amount of time spent, and Gardai available on the streets. This is something that would be welcomed by all license payers, however it stands to reason that with less time being spent processing license applications the endeavor would require less financial input. If anything this should mean that the cost of a firearms license should have decreased, instead it has increased by nearly 50%.

Unlike like most other license fees be they for Dogs, Cars or Televisions the revenue generated by the firearms license fee is not redirected back into the shooting sports and so these sports are supported to an enormous degree by the financial input of their proponents.
A price increase of this magnitude may prove too much for some to absorb leading to reduced numbers of sports shooters and endangering an already besieged sporting community.

Target shooting is a sport to which I have only recently been introduced, but it is one which I have throughly enjoyed and was hoping to take up more seriously. Unfortunetly it now appears as though this will not come to pass as this recent price increase has for me moved the sport beyond the realm of affordability.

I fear that should this increase not be revised the shooting sports will eventually become the sole preserve of the wealthy. Is my chosen sport to be denied to me because of my income? Is the point of all sports not to encourage the forging of friendships and to assist in the breakdown of barriers social, racial and economic?

While I must admit that in recent years I have been lax in my duty as a voter, this year it is my intention to be quite vocal at the polling booth, and to ensure that my family and friends, as well as those of all firearms license holders, are as well.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards
XXXXXXXXXXX

(Tel : XXXXXXX)
(email : XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX)

chem

Just in from the meeting in dunleer eith Des Crofton. He reported that there is alot of TD feathers been ruffeled by use and to keep up the pressure. He also stated that the restricted firearms list Should be known to him by tomorrow:eek:

Maread Mc Guinness MEP (FG)was the only representative to turn up out of all parties asked to attend.

She reported that the anti lobby in europe to approch her, and that this was the first time she had been asked by a shooting group for support in ANY matter. She said what we all know, that the anti blood sport groups are very orginised and willing to shout till they are listened to.

Just one question to you all. How long do we have to work on this. I may be wrong but I picked up from the meeting that we only have till next tuesday before the finance bill gets approved. Is this correct?

dimebag249

To be honest, I'm a lot more worried about the restricted firearms list than the fee increase. My money says we get boned...

phantom_lord

chem wrote:

restricted firearms list Should be known to him by tomorrow

I haven't been here in a while , what's that?

jaycee

dimebag249 wrote:

To be honest, I'm a lot more worried about the restricted firearms list than the fee increase. My money says we get boned...

Rock and a hard place ...
We already got screwed , we're just waiting to see who the real daddy is .
The DOJ or the Dept of Finance ... Some choice..! :rolleyes:

Terrier

Vegeta wrote:

There are 6 votes in my house alone, 3 of us are shooters

There are 40+ votes in my Gun Club.. this is the way the NARGC should be getting the attention of TD's

Clare gunner

Blitz them again people!!!! Throw everything that you have at it.If you need to redraw your letter pointing out that of all people who were to meet with the gun owners reps only ONE FG MEP had the courtsey to attend.That party will be reciving your vote if this finance clause goes thru....
Couldnt be botherd to act on our behalf...our vote goes to somone who does!!!Simple as that!!:mad:

Sparks

Just in:

The Government has revised the law concerning the granting of firearms certificates. The fee for such a certificate has now increased substantially and the Department attributes this to the fact that it has not increased since the early 1990s and that the certificate is now valid for 3 years rather than just one.

Fine Gael believes that the extension of the validity of the certificate to 3 years should reduce the amount of administration involved in the gun licensing process and that this should impact positively on the cost of a certificate. Fine Gael also commits to increasing charges for such items by no more than the ECB annual rate of inflation.

Furthermore, there is now an added cost if a firearms training certificate that is required by minors and other persons learning to use a firearm. Fine Gael believes that the fee for such training certificates should be set as low as possible so that people are encouraged to seek and obtain the training certificates rather than undertaking uncertified training.

I hope this clarifies the matter for you.

Every good wish,

Yours sincerely

Jim O'Keeffe T.D.
Fine Gael Spokesperson on Justice

Sparks

And replied to:

On 4/19/07, jim.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie <jim.okeeffe@oireachtas.ie> wrote:
The Government has revised the law concerning the granting of firearms certificates. The fee for such a certificate has now increased substantially and the Department attributes this to the fact that it has not increased since the early 1990s and that the certificate is now valid for 3 years rather than just one.


Dear Jim,
Yes, we've been told this. The problem is that we do not receive, and never have received, any goods or services for our licence fees. There is no proficiency testing service, as with a driving licence. The firearms licence is not an identity document, as with a passport. We are not even contributing to a social service, as we do with our television licence.
So how inflation can apply when no goods or services are involved, escapes us.

Fine Gael believes that the extension of the validity of the certificate to 3 years should reduce the amount of administration involved in the gun licensing process and that this should impact positively on the cost of a certificate.


Indeed. It reduces Garda man-hours by at least 66%. And while our suggested licensing system, put forward during the consultation phase of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, which would have been a licence that lasted 5 years and licensed the person rather than the firearm (as is the standard throughout the UK and most of the EU) would have reduced Garda man-hours required by 92% or more, 66% is still a significant drop.

Fine Gael also commits to increasing charges for such items by no more than the ECB annual rate of inflation.


May I enquire as to what goods or services Fine Gael would provide in return for our license fee?

Furthermore, there is now an added cost if a firearms training certificate that is required by minors and other persons learning to use a firearm. Fine Gael believes that the fee for such training certificates should be set as low as possible so that people are encouraged to seek and obtain the training certificates rather than undertaking uncertified training.


We wholeheartedly support and applaud this sentiment.

Yours in Sport,

--
Mark Dennehy, Secretary
National Target Shooting Association ltd.

sidneyreilly

A meeting between the NARGC's Des Crofton and Dept. of Justice officials (in the Dept) concluded half an hour ago (12.30) with the following result:

The proposed increase in Licence Fees has been abandoned.
Department Officials are now of the opinion that the proposed fee was "UNSUSTAINABLE"
Firearms Certs will be renewed in the normal way at the current rate on July 31st 2007 for 1 year.
The 3-year licence will come into operation in 2008.
The fee for the 3-year licence will be set, only following consultation with the NARGC.


The above is nothing less than a clear victory. Two other interesting points emerged from the meeting.

1. The Department has staff working flat out to answer the exceptionally high number of Parliamentary Questions put down in the Dail by so many T.D.'s about the proposed increase. Brendan Howlin TD was to the fore in this.
2. The Department is concerned at the large number (72) of Judicial Reviews that have been granted by the High Court in Firearms Licence cases, against Garda Superintendents nationwide. In relation to the High Court actions Des Crofton pointed out to the meeting that "the only way to cure a headache is to stop banging your head against the wall".

astraboy

Well said sparks. I think its a major issue that we are being charged more for a reduced service! The licensing of the person, not the weapon should be introduced. Its common sense really.

Sparks

sidneyreilly wrote:

A meeting between the NARGC's Des Crofton and Dept. of Justice officials (in the Dept) concluded half an hour ago (12.30) with the following result:

The proposed increase in Licence Fees has been abandoned.
Department Officials are now of the opinion that the proposed fee was "UNSUSTAINABLE"
Firearms Certs will be renewed in the normal way at the current rate on July 31st 2007 for 1 year.
The 3-year licence will come into operation in 2008.
The fee for the 3-year licence will be set, only following consultation with the NARGC.


The above is nothing less than a clear victory. Two other interesting points emerged from the meeting.

1. The Department has staff working flat out to answer the exceptionally high number of Parliamentary Questions put down in the Dail by so many T.D.'s about the proposed increase. Brendan Howlin TD was to the fore in this.
2. The Department is concerned at the large number (72) of Judicial Reviews that have been granted by the High Court in Firearms Licence cases, against Garda Superintendents nationwide. In relation to the High Court actions Des Crofton pointed out to the meeting that "the only way to cure a headache is to stop banging your head against the wall".

Excellent news!
(Bit worried that it's only the NARGC that gets consulted, but still excellent news)

Clare gunner

Has this made public yet???As can we expect a press release from NARGC,ITSA,and the other organisations, by email or print to confirm this as actual intent by the Govt????

Wont pop the bubbly just yet...But if this is true.......:D

astraboy

Great news if true! The system works!:D Perhaps this shows what a few of us lunatics(only messing lads!) with emails can do when we pester politicans. Now to worry about the restricted firearms list. Hopefully it won't be used as an election issue, displayed before the media by McDowell in an effort to show he is "serious about gun crime".

Dr Strange

Well done! If this is indeed true would it be time to send the "thank you emails" or make the phone calls to the local politicians who helped with this?



Best,
Preusse (who has no vote)