Licence Fee Increases - Shooters Quite Unhappy.

Quillo

Interesting press release on the NARGC site:

http://www.nargc.ie/FISSTA%20Press%20Release

Solidarity in action.

Clare gunner

Yeah the fishermen had this as well before,and realise they could be next.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend....

Well Folks,if this is true and we call a cease fire until this is offical!!!
Trust is one thing,confirmation by action is better.
Hold off the thanks notes until we see this in writing.I think we can say to each other as individuals and organisations

DAMN WELL DONE[/SIZE][/B]

It just shows what we as gun owners can acheive if we put a bit of work,intent and willpower into a grassroots campain by using mod technology to this for us ..
To quote W Churchill again.

This is not the end ,nor is it the beginning of the end.But it is perhaps the end of the beginning

If this has been proven to work,we should keep this grassroots network alive and kicking.To do the same to ill informed politicans or journalists ,etc.
Whos for going and bothering the Examiner,and the DOJ if the "restricted list" is too draconian:D
Pat yourselves on the backs all. We needed a morale booster,and have gotton it thru our own work,in our own way.

Dvs

Hello All,
I would like to ask everyone to take a moment,
to reflect on the fact, that we all put whatever differences we have aside,
we worked together as sport shooters, e-mailed called and faxed or politicians and made our common voice heard!

Let us remember and learn from this,
we can pursue and enjoy our own chosen disciplines,
but lets make sure that the politicians know,
mess with any of us,
we will respond with one voice.

Good work everyone.

Dvs

Dr Strange

Clare gunner wrote:

... It just shows what we as gun owners can acheive if we put a bit of work,intent and willpower into a grassroots campain by using mod technology to this for us ... If this has been proven to work,we should keep this grassroots network alive and kicking.

Yes, I agree, however it only works if everyone pulls together and not the fractional infighting I have seen since joining this forum. It was actually quite sad to see this and I hope this will be the point where everyone can work together. We don't have to agree on everything but to support each other when it matters is the main point.

Best,
Preusse

EDIT: Dvs was quicker with his reply. Didn't read it until mine was written. Totally agree!

Sparks

And I'd like to remind us all that we're not all done yet.
The restricted firearms list is due out very soon now, if in fact they didn't hand round a copy of it today.

Sparks

And by the way - this worked because we didn't work together. We all fought our own corners and because we were all lined up the same way and noone tried to use this to step on other toes, it worked.
See? All stand together. Not all fall in behind one person.
Works much better.


And I'd also like to say that this isn't so much a victory for any of the shooting associations (NTSA included) as it is for the individual shooters who came together here and outside of here and yelled at their local representatives. Grassroots works folks.

Colm O'Gorman rang me today to state that he is fully behind the owners of firearms in getting these increases repealed.

Can someone post proof that the fees have been reduced?

Sparks

Just got off the phone with the DoJ and it seems that it's not that the NARGC has jumped the gun, but the official position isn't laid out yet and noone there can comment until the Minister decides. Their best guess is that they'll know by Monday or Tuesday and the PQs laid down for answer in the Dail on Tuesday will set out the official position; but they were quite specific that that's not a committment.
They did say that the Minister was open to reviewing the fees and they did say that there has been an enormous amount of correspondance on the matter (yay for boards.ie).

Dr Strange

Sparks wrote:

And by the way - this worked because we didn't work together.

I see it differently, Sparks. Yes, maybe there wasn't anyone working closely together but by posting the letters and the replies by TD's etc on the forum it did help others to write their own letters/emails, make the phone calls, etc. at the same time. In that way the shooting fraternity did work together and you could say, also different Associations fought their own corners, quite rightly so, the individual shooters got organized, particularly through this forum, and started the ball rolling.

Sparks wrote:

We all fought our own corners and because we were all lined up the same way and noone tried to use this to step on other toes, it worked.
See? All stand together. Not all fall in behind one person.
Works much better.
And I'd also like to say that this isn't so much a victory for any of the shooting associations (NTSA included) as it is for the individual shooters who came together here and outside of here and yelled at their local representatives. Grassroots works folks.

I agree. However, as I said before, this wasn't just a "everyone for him/herself" fight. You got organised through this forum on a matter that matters to all shooters and that's what carried the day (hopefully). You all managed in time to put petty infighting aside and do something and this is the result. Don't underestimate what this forum did. I do believe that more shooters followed and wrote emails, made phone calls etc after hearing from friends and relatives about what was happening. So well done!

Next stop: restricted list!

Best,
Preusse

Dvs

Sparks wrote:

And by the way - this worked because we didn't work together. We all fought our own corners and because we were all lined up the same way and noone tried to use this to step on other toes, it worked.
See? All stand together. Not all fall in behind one person.
Works much better.


And I'd also like to say that this isn't so much a victory for any of the shooting associations (NTSA included) as it is for the individual shooters who came together here and outside of here and yelled at their local representatives. Grassroots works folks.

Sparks,
That was my point,
we sports shooters worked together.

Not organizations,
Individuals, people power.

Dvs.

Sparks

Preusse wrote:

In that way the shooting fraternity did work together and you could say, also different Associations fought their own corners, quite rightly so, the individual shooters got organized, particularly through this forum, and started the ball rolling.

I can go along with that
We just have a long history in these situations Preusse, of everyone trying to be the alpha male in the pack, and the end result is a lot of squabbling and not much work. This time, we pretty much told anyone who tried that to sod off, and as a result, we all pulled together.
It was very pleasant to witness

You all managed in time to put petty infighting asied

Well. No. We convinced shooters to do something themselves instead of waiting for shooting associations to do it for them, and from what I heard down the phone line a minute ago, that's what made the difference.
One, two, ten shooting bodies sending delegations - well, it takes up a day.
100,000 shooters sending emails and faxes and phone calls and yelling at their TDs - that's something else

Don't underestimate what this forum did.

Oh, the irony

Sparks

Dvs wrote:

Sparks,
That was my point we sports shooters worked together.
Not organizations,
Individuals, people power.
Dvs.

Yup
A model for the future, perhaps!

Dr Strange

Sparks wrote:

... We just have a long history in these situations Preusse, of everyone trying to be the alpha male in the pack, and the end result is a lot of squabbling and not much work ...

Yes, I can see how that can hinder proper work. As a newbie to the forum I am not quite up to date with how things work and what the "history" is between some people here, but sometimes I can guess

Sparks wrote:

... This time, we pretty much told anyone who tried that to sod off, and as a result, we all pulled together.
It was very pleasant to witness ...

Absolutely agree! And, to be honest, I was quite surprised it got results so quickly.

Sparks wrote:

... Well. No. We convinced shooters to do something themselves instead of waiting for shooting associations to do it for them, and from what I heard down the phone line a minute ago, that's what made the difference.
One, two, ten shooting bodies sending delegations - well, it takes up a day.
100,000 shooters sending emails and faxes and phone calls and yelling at their TDs - that's something else ...

They have to listen at some stage however, 8 years in your lovely country have also shown me quite the opposite may happen. :rolleyes:

Sparks wrote:

Oh, the irony

You said it.

Best,
Preusse

Sparks

Preusse wrote:

Absolutely agree! And, to be honest, I was quite surprised it got results so quickly.

Well, they are going to be calling an election on Tuesday (that's apparently the current best guess)...

Vegeta

ok we should stop all this back slapping for the minute, we got noticed but we have not won yet

We need to get some very important questions asked when the Minister is questioned, in order of importance

1. What good or service are we receiving for our license fee
make it clear that the only thing this does is generate revenue for the government. We get nothing back and more garda time is freed up. Where is the logic in an increase. Inflation may have gone up 60% but admin costs have also gone down by 66% due to being 1 in every 3 years.

2. Why has the driving license fee and passport fee not been raised accordingly
Driving license has not been increased since 1989 (thank you rrpc) but is still 25 euro for 10 years (over 3 times the length of the new firearms license)

3. Why not make the system even more efficient (and in my opinion safer for the public) and follow the U.K. and N.I
Doing this will further reduce admin costs, bring us in line with our neighboring countries. This will not happen this time round but we should at least get the idea out there.

to rob their own slogan. A lot done, more to do

Clare gunner

Agreed Veg,AND I might point out it isnt in concrete yet.In the sense that the minister"is open to reviewing the fees"and that between then and now is five days.And the old saying A week is a long time in Irish politics still holds true.As soon as I see this on Govt paper with the appropriate sig under it THEN I'll belive it!!So it still has to be made clear to them that this is a cease fire not the peace accord.:(
As to in fighting,who did what etc.In the end we are all GUNOWNERS! And it was us collectively who were threatened.The whole idea of grassroots is it binds collectively individuals to fight a common enemy,not a specific cause revelant to one sector.Also it's advantage is it gives the individual a input on how much/little they want to do.There is no leaders just people speaking from their sector of the sport.Yes it works,and I think it shows that we are not as impotent as we thought we were this time last week.Nor that Govs around an election time are any time are as omnipotent as they would like to think they are.

BryanL

the other thing i would say is we should all, be directing everyone we know with a gun, to this site.1-2 organisations can never be expected to do the work of many is also a lesson.you can't just pay subs and go back to sleep.
if all goes well be important to thank Fine Gael on the door step for their efforts on the gun licence(then vote for whoever you like:D )
Bryan

Clare gunner

Last Mon I stopped in a well known gun dealer in the MidWest who shall rename nameless,but would be well known to the MidWest area.
As one does to see if there was anything that one would fancy,and in my quest for a local dealer[within 100 miles round trip] who has 9mm ammo.
Got chatting to him about the liscense hike.Oh it was all doom and gloom,and that there was nothing that we can do and there would be rakes of guns no one would want dumped in gun dealers and that 223 was already restricted,and that SA would never get in ,etc etc.You get the pic.
Asked well have you written to your TD,phoned your local canditate, burned the ears off the Irish gun dealers assoc?etc.The answer was "ah,shure I'll wait until they show up and then tak to them."
Bearing in mind that this fellow has appx 250K worth of rifles,and shotguns in stock and makes a decent part time living from it,I would think

Needless to say I didnt buy nothing,and seeing loads of the usual Confederate ,and usual memoribilia from the Deep South of the US.I felyt like saying,that his spirt of the South or fighting for his guns or livlyhood was sadly lacking,and
"Sah,I must tell y'all I must remove at once from your premisis the Stars&Bars, of the True South as you truely Sah,do that flag of the Southen States no honoah!!!.:eek: "

Point being it is those kind of people who do us no favours,and proably wouldnt be arsed looking at websites like this,nor scratching themselves to help themselves either,but let us or organisations do the work instead.
To those out there of that bent I say.Hang your heads in shame!!!:mad:
They are the first to moan when it is all over why nothing was done,the first to bitch on how it should have been done,and the last to do anything to change the situation.

G17

A mail I was CC'd on

A meeting between the NARGC's Des Crofton and Dept. of Justice officials (in the Dept) concluded half an hour ago (12.30) with the following result:

The proposed increase in Licence Fees has been abandoned.
Department Officials are now of the opinion that the proposed fee was "UNSUSTAINABLE"
Firearms Certs will be renewed in the normal way at the current rate on July 31st 2007 for 1 year.
The 3-year licence will come into operation in 2008.
The fee for the 3-year licence will be set, only following consultation with the NARGC.


The above is nothing less than a clear victory. Two other interesting points emerged from the meeting.

1. The Department has staff working flat out to answer the exceptionally high number of Parliamentary Questions put down in the Dail by so many T.D.'s about the proposed increase. Brendan Howlin TD was to the fore in this.
2. The Department is concerned at the large number (72) of Judicial Reviews that have been granted by the High Court in Firearms Licence cases, against Garda Superintendents nationwide. In relation to the High Court actions Des Crofton pointed out to the meeting that "the only way to cure a headache is to stop banging your head against the wall".

Quillo

I think one of the reasons we got a result here is that is was a single easily understood issue: A big price increase in something. Nothing technical, nothing new to understand, nothing that changed the availability of guns and so easy for TDs and senators to understand and get behind in the run up to an election.

Had we been pushing a list of grievances or looking for clarification on a technical matter we probably would have generated far less interest.

Vegeta

Quillo wrote:

I think one of the reasons we got a result here is that is was a single easily understood issue: A big price increase in something. Nothing technical, nothing new to understand, nothing that changed the availability of guns and so easy for TDs and senators to understand and get behind in the run up to an election.

Had we been pushing a list of grievances or looking for clarification on a technical matter we probably would have generated far less interest.

completely agree here

My fear when the restricted list comes out is that everyone will pick the bit that applies to them only and then go mailing. That's another fight though

Lets see this one through first.

Sparks

My fear when the restricted list comes out is that everyone will pick the bit that applies to them only and then go mailing.

So?
It's the volume of complaints that got noticed. They weren't comparing each to every other complaint in the Department, they just saw how many people were ticked off at the proposal and thought that therefore it wasn't supportable.
If 100,000 people all complain about the contents of the restricted list - even if they're not all complaining about the same thing - then they'll listen again.

Quillo

Sparks wrote:

If 100,000 people all complain about the contents of the restricted list - even if they're not all complaining about the same thing - then they'll listen again.

Much harder to get the "why" across to non-shooter though.
Everyone understands a price hike.
I suspect it may be more difficult to get our elected representatives behind the idea that we, the shooting public, don't want this or that restricted.

Might need some careful phrasing.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

So?
It's the volume of complaints that got noticed.

Yeah but every complaint was about the exact same thing.

They weren't comparing each to every other complaint in the Department, they just saw how many people were ticked off at the proposal and thought that therefore it wasn't supportable.
If 100,000 people all complain about the contents of the restricted list - even if they're not all complaining about the same thing - then they'll listen again.

I don't want to get into a restricted firearms list debate now as I think we should keep our eyes on the prize. Lets keep shooting affordable. When we have this set in stone we will make a new thread on how to co-ordinate our efforts in coming up with a better system than having to restrict firearms. Agreed?

Rovi

G17 wrote:

I suppose this has been posted elsewhere but..

Indeed it has, post #326 of this very thread.

rrpc

The problem with the restricted list from our point of view, is that the process has not started yet. Having something on the restricted list does not mean that you can't get a licence for it per se, and if we start complaining about it before it actually becomes law, we don't have anything concrete to point to and say "this is what it's doing", or "it's a de facto ban on xxx".

There are other things we need to push for first. The horses ass that was made of the NTSA's suggestion of One Person, One licence has to be pushed, and again it's an easy message becuase it obviously saves on admin by the Gardaí and streamlines the system, as well as making it cheaper for us.

We could also push for a commitment to channel some of the money raised from this tax back into the sport, again an easy message with plenty of comparable examples.

There are a number of other things that could also be addressed:
1. Visitor permits for international shooters to attend competitions here, or a commitment to recognise the European firearms pass without further red tape.
2. Freeing up movement of club firearms so that people can attend competitions without getting removal orders every time they leave a district.
3. A proper licence with photo id as per the rest of the planet.
4. Training licences should have a nominal charge, and could for example specify all club firearms rather than just one, or even just types and calibres.

That's just for starters.

civdef

Training licences should be free. The firearm will already be licenced to its owner anyway. How's that for a starting point?

Sparks

civdef wrote:

Training licences should be free. The firearm will already be licenced to its owner anyway. How's that for a starting point?

That's the current Fine Gael position according the Jim O'Keefe email above...

rrpc

I suggested a nominal charge so that we wouldn't be accused of using Garda time without paying for it.

But free is good

astraboy

If the licensing of the person comes in, would they still have to go through the approval process of applyting for a new gun each time they changed weapon?

What I would like to see is a 3 or 5 year licensing of each shooter. The firearms licensed to that person are stored on a system. Each time the person wants to upgrade or buy a new firearm their firearm history, and thus a rough guage of their experience, can be easily sought off the system.