Licence Fee Increases - Shooters Quite Unhappy.

Saddlebags

For anyone in Carlow/Kilkenny,take note that not one sitting TD bothered to respond to e mails on this subject!

Clare gunner

Breakdown for the Clare/Limerick area response in local reps.
Be intresting to see who ,in what areas responded the most.

FF 4 responses
FG 0
PDs 1
Labour 0
Greens 0
Socialists 0
SF 0

National
FF 5
FG 1
Labour 0
PDs 2
All others 0

Please step into my web,when you come canvassing!!:mad:

Astra,
It already exists.It's called PULSE.It works,more or less.

astraboy

[QUOTE=Clare gunnerAstra,
It already exists.It's called PULSE.It works,more or less.[/QUOTE]
I'm aware of the current pulse system, but would it be able to deal with a single license per shooter type of scheme? From what I've heard pulse is far from perfect........

BryanL

mine from locals would be
FF 3
FG 2
labour 0
PD 0
SF 1

also worth noting that Sinn Fein would support a foxhunting ban,i suppose they prefer guns:D

Clare gunner

It would be intresting to see what happens when PULSE has to deal with a OMOL all ruight.
Thought it was the Socialists who wanted to ban foxhunting.??
So long as SF /Labour dont form a coalation..'
Otherwise we will have Guns and Roses:D

astraboy

Clare gunner wrote:

I
Thought it was the Socialists who wanted to ban foxhunting.??
So long as SF /Labour dont form a coalation..'
Otherwise we will have Guns and Roses:D

Guns'N'Roses for government!:p
Heh heh heh:D

newby.204

X,

While I am opposed to the increase of licence fee as another stealth tax I think it is not really a good time to make highlight it. Its not cowardice but the recent American college shooting has made the topic very sensitive with very many people who believe that gun law should be much stricter here. I have mentioned the issue with other politicians but the recent events has certainly put any further discussion on the back burner.



Feel free to keep me updated and reminded



Richard

richard.daly@finegael.ie

The above is a response i received on enquiring about updates on the situation regarding the increase in licence fees from one of only three TD's to email me back. Somebody please please explain to me how you could possibly draw any comparison from the situation in the USA to ours?? Anybody??:mad:

civdef

Where's this fella's constituency again?

Our man in Havana

Kildare South. He is a member of Athy town council.

Umiq88

Might be worth mentioning to them the problem's they could have on they're hands if people refuse to pay they're fee's.

I know there must be alot of farmers and others out there that have one shotgun and wont pay rediculous amounts of money for something that costs more to license than the gun itself.

A line some people mightn't have considered is the shooting community flat out refusing to pay the fees and all of a sudden you have quater of a million unlicesened firearms out there. How would they like that.

Sparks

How would they like that.

I suspect they would call the ERU before they'd call to negotiate a solution with the shooters...

the hunter

i was talking to a dealer last nite and i was asking did he know about the price hike and he heard it was all done away with and one of the shooting bodies was in discussion with the government on the fee's ????

Sparks

The official Department of Justice position on the fees hasn't been released as yet hunter (expect that today or tomorrow), but the unofficial word is that the gressroots campaigning from shooters convinced the Department that the fees were unsupportable.

N.O.I.P.

Just received this today, the last half of the mail is old news at this point but I found it interesting that in the first paragraph we are told that it was the Department of Justice, Equality & Law Reform that requested the increase

I refer to your recent e-mail to Minister of State Parlon regarding the increase in the Firearm Licence Fee.

At the request of the Department of Justice, Equality & Law Reform, the Finance Act 2007 provided for new three-year rates for Firearm Certificates and for registration duties for Firearm Dealers to replace the annual rates and the introduction of four new categories of certificate/authorisation/licence. Currently firearm certificates and registrations of firearms dealers are subject to an excise duty and are renewed annually from 1st August.

Provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2006, which have yet to be commenced, will mean that firearm certificates and firearms dealers registrations will be renewable every 3 years from the date of issue/registration. The administration of firearm certificates and firearms dealers is dealt with by the Garda Síochána with the excise duty collected being remitted to the Revenue Commissioners.

The rationale for moving from an annual to a three-year lifespan for these certificates/registrations is primarily to free up Garda time and resources. Because there are 170,000 registered firearms in circulation, currently there is considerable time spent in ensuring compliance in this area. These changes come into effect on 31 December 2007.

Excise duty rates on firearm certificates and firearms dealer registrations were last increased in the Finance Act 1992 and consequently it was deemed appropriate that they be adjusted to take account of CPI increases since then. Therefore the new rates take account of i) the fact that the new rate now covers three years rather than one year, and ii) inflation since 1992 (i.e. 15 years).

I trust this clarifies the position.

Yours sincerely

Aengus Ó'Riain

Private Secretary

stevoman

that is the exact letter i have just received via email and i was about to post it here. obviously the politicians have taken the good time to write up one broad letter not dealing with our individual complaints and responded with what we all ready know. nothing about is there anything we can do. one more politition has just lost another vote!!!!!!!!!

Sparks

From the Parlimentary Questions thread:

What a cop-out of an answer.

172. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason the firearms licence fee has gone up by 50% even though the three-year licence means that less Garda man-hours are needed to administer it compared with the previous system. [14778/07]

173. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if, in view of the fact that the proposed list of restricted firearms contains Olympic pistols, an association (details supplied) and other relevant sporting bodies will be given an opportunity to have input into the second draft of the Statutory Instrument; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14779/07]

174. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he will be commencing the remainder of the Firearms Act 2006, in view of the fact that the Criminal Justice Bill 2007 is already amending it before it has been fully commenced. [14780/07]

175. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when the Garda Commissioner’s guidelines for superintendents with relation to the Firearms Act 2006 will be published. [14781/07]

176. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when the firearms range inspector will be appointed by the Minister. [14782/07]

177. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason several firearms ranges have already had to spend tens of thousands of euro on upgrades to comply with Garda demands for range certification in view of the fact that the relevant legislation has not been commenced and that the range inspector not been appointed. [14783/07]

178. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when the official regulations to which firing ranges must conform will be published. [14784/07]

179. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will give assurances that target shooters wishing to compete in international competitions who find their sporting equipment listed on the restricted list will not find themselves required to comply with draconian and onerous demands to obtain firearms certificates. [14785/07]

180. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason shotgun licences cost €115 for a three-year period with each subsequent shotgun on the licence costing €30 but an air rifle licence costs €170 and can only have one air rifle on it. [14786/07]

181. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason in view of the obvious benefit to tourism that the 2012 Olympics represent, the firearms licence costs for foreign visitors have been increased to €57; and the reason no free visitors’ permit mechanism has been created to encourage the tourism that competitive target shooting represents. [14787/07]

182. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to strong concerns expressed by an association (details supplied) regarding recent changes to firearms legislation and licensing systems; if he will meet the association; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14788/07]

188. Mr. Durkan asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he has received correspondence in relation to licence fees; his plans to address this issue in early course; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14823/07]

194. Mr. Ferris asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason it was necessary to increase the fees for firearms licences and training licenses by so much; and his views on whether this constitutes an exorbitant and unfair expense on tens of thousands of people who participate in gun sports here. [14866/07]

203. Mr. Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of firearms licences currently in place for each category of shotguns, rifles, pistols and other firearms; the number of firearms licences currently in place in each county; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14943/07]

Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): I propose to take Questions Nos. 172 to 182, inclusive, 188, 194 and 203 together.

The Criminal Justice Act 2006 was signed into law by the President on the 16th July 2006. All sections of that Act relating to firearms have been commenced other than the following sections: 28 (Firearms training certificate); 30 (Application for, and form and effect of firearm certificates); 32 (Conditions of grant of firearms certificate); 33 (Authorisation of rifle or pistol clubs or shooting ranges); 38 (Registered Firearms Dealers); and 40 (Reloading of ammunition).

A Project Board, Chaired by an Assistant Commissioner of An Garda Síochána comprising members of my Department and An Garda Síochána is actively addressing the issues which need to be put in place before these sections can be commenced, including significant changes to the Garda PULSE computer system.

Officials of my Department met recently with two of the Shooting Organisations to discuss a number of issues relating to the new licensing regime. I am anxious that the programme of change which is being undertaken proceeds smoothly and has legitimate regard to all the interests involved, not least the public interest. It is in that context that I am considering the establishment of a consultative panel to bring the relevant stakeholders together on a structured basis.

The licensing of firearms and registration of Firearms Dealers is governed by the Firearms Acts 1925 - 2006. The Criminal Justice Act 2006 substantially amended the existing legislation to provide for a new firearms licensing regime. The present frequency of licensing of firearms and the registration of Firearms Dealers on an annual basis is changing to a three yearly basis - primarily to free up Garda time and resources. The new scheme, however, will not take effect until 2008, so the licensing process will go ahead on the usual annual basis this summer under the old fee structure.

In relation to the increase in charges, the Department of Finance and Revenue Commissioners advised me that, since the last time the fees were changed in 1992 there had been a 51% increase in the Consumer Price Index. The new fee structure reflects this increase as well as a tripling of the annual rate to reflect the new three year term.

It was not intended that the increase should cause undue hardship or difficulties for those who have to obtain licences. I am in receipt of correspondence regarding the fees from various members of the shooting community and as it will be some time before the new fees arise there will be time to consider the legitimate concerns that have been expressed.

Under Section 29 of the Criminal Justice Act, 2006 I may, by statutory instrument and in the interests of public safety and security, declare specific firearms and ammunition as “restricted”, by reference to their category, calibre, working mechanism, muzzle energy and description. It should be noted that where a firearm is deemed “restricted” it does not mean that the possession or sale of such firearms is prohibited.

Where a person wishes to possess such a firearm they will be required to make an application to the Garda Commissioner for the grant of a firearms certificate and satisfy the Commissioner that they comply with the conditions set out in Section 4 of the Firearms Act, 1925, as amended by the 2006 Act. In addition firearms dealers will be required to seek an authorisation from me for the importation for sale of such firearms.

My Department has consulted with An Garda Síochána, organisations representing different shooting interest groups and firearms dealers representatives regarding the drafting of this statutory instrument. I am satisfied that the final version which will be published, within the near future, will represent a reasonable balance between allowing people go about their business or interests lawfully while at the same time having due regard to public safety and security.

The Commissioner in consultation with my Department has prepared draft guidelines on firearms licensing. The draft is currently being finalised and it is my intention that it will be circulated when ready.

The Firearms Act 1925, as amended, provides that gun clubs and ranges may be authorised by a Garda Superintendent. However, a Superintendent shall not grant such an authorisation unless he is satisfied that the possession, use or carriage of firearms in pursuance of such authorisation will not endanger public safety or the peace. In so far as the grant of an authorisation for a gun club or range is concerned the courts have ruled that the Superintendent is persona designata in relation to such decisions and cannot be fettered in any way.

In addition, under Section 4 of the Firearms Act 1925, a Superintendent before granting a firearms certificate shall be satisfied that such person can be permitted to have in his possession, use and carry a firearm or ammunition without danger to the public safety or to the peace.

We are in transition phase, however, and Section 33 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006, when commenced will provide that the owner or operator of a rifle/pistol club or range shall be required to apply to the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána for an authorisation. Such ranges and clubs shall be required to meet minimum standards as set down by me, by way of Statutory Instrument. In the case of a range authorisation, the application must be accompanied by a range certificate as issued by the Firearms Range Inspector.

Proposals are being finalised at present in my Department in relation to the Range Inspection function.

On statistics, I am informed by the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána that the there are currently 220,715 firearms licences in the State, including 49,218 rifle, 170,156 shotgun, 1,228 handgun and 113 other various firearms licences. I am informed by the Commissioner that providing a breakdown of firearms licences by county could not be achieved without a disproportionate use of time and resources. The following table sets out firearms licences by Garda divisions.

Garda Division Total no. of firearms licensed
Mayo 10,613
Clare 7,895
Kerry 8,948
Donegal 11,288
Limerick 8,759
Cork City 3,739
Cork West 10,260
Cork Nth 8,579
Tipperary 14,347
Galway West 8,911
Louth/Meath 17,362
Laois/Offaly 13,030
Sligo/Leitrim 6,802
Carlow/Kilkenny 15,865
Cavan/Monaghan 14,379
DMR Eastern 4,157
DMR West 3,821
DMR Nth 3,617
DMR Nth Central 223
DMR South 2,675
DMR Sth Central 511
Wexford/Wicklow 17,815
Longford/Westmeath 11,478
Roscommon/Galway 11,052
Waterford/Kilkenny 11,644

flight93

Here is the best reply I got yet!

Thats class!!

Only Colm O'Gorman and Councillor D'Arcy (Wexford) got back to me..

Vegeta

well what do we think??

Sparks

Dodging the question completely. Which makes me think they're not serious about dropping the fees at all.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Dodging the question completely. Which makes me think they're not serious about dropping the fees at all.

Thought the very same thing myself. Who exactly is in talks with them over the fees. I would like to contact them and give them a bit of ammo.

Again they are spouting this crap about the license not being raised since 1992. cough...driving license....cough

Anyone have Quinns e-mail address, lads we are going to lose this one if we don't keep up the pressure.

We need to identify the people actively chasing the minister on this and keep at them to get us a satisfactory answer.

In simple terms, price is up by over 50% and costs are down 66%.

Sparks

We need to identify the people actively chasing the minister on this and keep at them to get us a satisfactory answer.

Check the mirror.
Seriously, and I can't stress this enough, it was the grassroots campaigning that got the response here, not any particular representative body (that's not to say they weren't working hard at it, just that one body versus a thousand letters/phone calls/personal visits to local TDs/emails/faxes, well, it's not much of a competition).

Remember:

I am in receipt of correspondence regarding the fees from various members of the shooting community and as it will be some time before the new fees arise there will be time to consider the legitimate concerns that have been expressed.

Which translates to "they're yelling at me, but I'm not doing anything just yet".
So yell louder folks.

Clare gunner

Got another one in from Madeline Taylor Quinn,with the same stuff about it being in line with inflation,blah,blah.Ok they aint listening very well,Start it up again.This time pointing out that this inflation nonsense wont wash.
and that they can now expect TRIPLE the mailing on this matter.

BryanL

the question i'm asking is why does one T.V. licence do?why can drive any car with a drivers licence.but need multiple for shooting?
Bryan

astraboy

I'd also be concerned about the restricted list. I know its another battle for another day but what purpose does it serve? Does it make Ireland safer? In fairness it would be preferable that your local super, who you applied to for all your firearms, would be the person to apply to for any firearm that may be restricted. Will it be a case of "I don't like the look/sound/design of that gun so its 'restricted' making it harder for genuine shooters to get the firearms they need for their hobby?

RE the increase, this whole "in line with inflation" thing is bull. There is no benefit to the shooting community with this fee and we are not paying for a public service as such, other then garda admin. If they want to revise the license then why not go the whole hog and have one man one license in one fell swoop?

Sparks

Little snippet in the Evening Herald today, which the answer given by the Minister would seem to render incorrect

Clare gunner

[.

I know its firearm that may be restricted. Will it be a case of "I don't like the look/sound/design of that gun so its 'restricted' making it harder for genuine shooters to get the firearms they need for their hobby?

No it is up to the decision of the cheif comissioner then.He has to justify this if need be in the District court.It is going to look daft,if he is refusing somone who has two pistols or whatever ,over a third or over a semi rifle.Plus he is going to be travelling alot to DCs in this fair land.
From what I have of inside info.It works like this;you apply, the Sgt sends it in to the district office.The Super then decides yes ,no ,unsure. Unsure,refer to local Sgt,whats mr X like? Sgt says he is a sound guy,never any bother...or complete nutter and gurrier or whatever shade of the afore mentioned.

Super then makes up his mind,with the thought has Mr X already got a liscense.So what will happen with the restricted is the Super is pushing it up the chain to the Cheif Comissioner,who will make the decision based on your local Super and Sgt!!:eek: So basically it is a Cover Yo Ass situation,where the top and the bottom will get it,if anything goes wrong.Not the middle[IE the Supers] so they can say.Well the local Sgt thought he was ok and the Cheif issued it,nothing to me.:rolleyes: Just a hell of alot more paperwork for the Gardai to enforce this.
Look,we can speculate on this restricted thing till it happens.The only way to do this is somone has to import a semi and see what happens.A suck it and see situation at the moment.

I am beginning to think this Q&A sessions on the Lic fees are becoming a sop to us.:( Issue a promise on next year.If we are in power,shure we will possibly do somthing if we could be botherd.If not, let the other crowd deal with them lot givin out about everything.:mad: And by then they will have moved onto somthin else anyway.
Soo it is time to let them ALL know that this wont go away.Whoever gets into power will be botherd by us on this matter untill next year as well.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

No it is up to the decision of the cheif comissioner then.He has to justify this if need be in the District court.It is going to look daft,if he is refusing somone who has two pistols or whatever ,over a third or over a semi rifle.Plus he is going to be travelling alot to DCs in this fair land.

Won't be him, it'll be one of his deputies or office workers...

From what I have of inside info

Yeah.
I'm getting increasingly more cynical of "insider information" these days CG.

It works like this;you apply, the Sgt sends it in to the district office.The Super then decides yes ,no ,unsure.

Er, no.
The Super decides "restricted list? yup, send back to the applicant with the note 'please apply to the commissioner'".
If he didn't do that, he'd be in the chain that led to someone being given a firearm, and that's precisely what some supers are trying to avoid so they won't risk the possiblity of explaining in court why they issued a firearms cert to someone who shouldn't have had one.

Look,we can speculate on this restricted thing till it happens.The only way to do this is somone has to import a semi and see what happens.A suck it and see situation at the moment.

No offence there CG, but when it comes to McDowell-issue legislation and the Garda Commissioner, I'm hesitant to suck anything because there's not much surprise as to what you'll see afterwards...

Soo it is time to let them ALL know that this wont go away.Whoever gets into power will be botherd by us on this matter untill next year as well.

Agreed. With the election just called, it's time to get promises down on paper to fix this god-awful mess McDowell has just dropped us all in, and not by repealing legislation (which in Ireland seems to take hundreds of years anyway), but by writing sensible stuff to overrule it.

Our man in Havana

Has a supers refusal ever been over turned in the courts?

rrpc

Bond-007 wrote:

Has a supers refusal ever been over turned in the courts?

Yes [cynical] It's called the "I didn't issue the licence" system [/cynical]