Licence Fee Increases - Shooters Quite Unhappy.

Sparks

Bond-007 wrote:

Has a supers refusal ever been over turned in the courts?

Actually, technically, no.
What has happened has been that the Super was told that his reason for refusing was not legally supportable. In those cases, the Super has always changed his mind as to his decision (in fact, it usually happens on the steps rather than in the courtroom, at least metaphorically). But there was no legal entitity in the state who could legally order a Super to either grant or deny a firearms certificate application.
The new Firearms Act 2006 does change that, giving the District Court that power, but it's a bit of a grey area at the moment as to whether or not the DC can go ahead with such a case because the whole Act is not yet commenced; so the bit about going to the DC for a ruling is in place, but the bit about the Super needing to respond in three months, and in fact the whole bit about the new licence itself, is not in place, and there's the argument that both must be in place for the DC challange mechanism to be valid.
It'd need a test case to decide that. I'm not sure if there's one in the pipeline or not.

edit:
I know, I know, it all sounds terribly academic and utterly irrelevant to the practicalities of day-to-day stuff; but this kind of thing does lead to unfriendly Ministers getting away with blue screaming murder...

Sparks

I should also point out, by the way, that the current chap in charge of the firearms division in the DoJ seems to be a great leap forward in terms of communications and so forth. We shall see, but there does appear to be reason for hope yet...

Clare gunner

]

Sparks wrote:

Won't be him, it'll be one of his deputies or office workers...

Obviously,but I am quoting as how the system SHOULD work.

Yeah.
I'm getting increasingly more cynical of "insider information" these days CG.

Er, no.
The Super decides "restricted list? yup, send back to the applicant with the note 'please apply to the commissioner'".

Sparks,I went on and mentioned quite a bit more on this in the paragraph.This is related to the application as told to me by the FAO in my local Garda station.If you are going to quote me,at least quote the paragraph in full,not just cherrypick what you think are faults?

No offence there CG, but when it comes to McDowell-issue legislation and the Garda Commissioner, I'm hesitant to suck anything because there's not much surprise as to what you'll see afterwards...

Talking there of a solo run,which I will proably do myself,as no one else seems to want to try and bell the cat:( :rolleyes: .Then you can all issue critiques on how it should have been done,etc.:)
Ya wont know till you try.

dimebag249

Sorry, I know we're in 'wait and see' land here, but does anyone know if a person will, in theory anyway, have to apply to the comissioner for a 'restricted' firearm if that person already owns and has a licence for it. Plus if shotguns are restricted based on magazine size, as in the U.K., will a magazine plug suffice to make it un-restricted. Any educated guesses guys?

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Obviously,but I am quoting as how the system SHOULD work.

According to the PTB, that is how the system should work

Sparks,I went on and mentioned quite a bit more on this in the paragraph.This is related to the application as told to me by the FAO in my local Garda station.If you are going to quote me,at least quote the paragraph in full,not just cherrypick what you think are faults?

CG, I'm not trying to cherrypick - I was trying to make the point that I'm getting cynical about "insider information". I mean, seriously - why would your FAO, who's not even a superintendent, know what the Minister intended better than you do? Just 'cos he's wearing the uniform doesn't mean he's going to be better informed, we've seen that proven time and again, thanks to the poor training the gardai get in firearms legislation...

Talking there of a solo run,which I will proably do myself,as no one else seems to want to try and bell the cat:( :rolleyes: .Then you can all issue critiques on how it should have been done,etc.:)
Ya wont know till you try.

Exactly. And if it's you that tries, good luck to you and please let us know how it goes; but I wouldn't want to be the first to try and I don't think I'll be volunteering for the role for a good few months until I have a chance to save up for the trip

Clare gunner

Will take a guess that any restricted weaponary out there will be treated as normal and issued as is with certs.Anything that is registerd after the enactment date will proably become a comissioner liscense issue.
The plug ,proably,as the UK restriction must be done by a proof house or regd gunsmith.Not a DEALER! We are in short supply of both smiths and proof houses here,so it would be intresting to see how they would enforce this.

Sparks

dimebag249 wrote:

Sorry, I know we're in 'wait and see' land here, but does anyone know if a person will, in theory anyway, have to apply to the comissioner for a 'restricted' firearm if that person already owns and has a licence for it.

Yes, you'll have to go through the commissioner's office for renewals and for new applications.

Plus if shotguns are restricted based on magazine size, as in the U.K., will a magazine plug suffice to make it un-restricted. Any educated guesses guys?

Er.
Hmmm.
Depends on the Commissioner I'd imagine.

Clare gunner

[

CG, I'm not trying to cherrypick - I was trying to make the point that I'm getting cynical about "insider information". I mean, seriously - why would your FAO, who's not even a superintendent, know what the Minister intended better than you do? Just 'cos he's wearing the uniform doesn't mean he's going to be better informed, we've seen that proven time and again, thanks to the poor training the gardai get in firearms legislation...

Nope,you are taking this out of context;I gave a description of how the current application ,"personality check "works. FAO, SGt,Super,referal on chacter between local station and District HQ.That is fact on how the current system works.The restricted system now will work on the FAO,Sgt,Super referal,if restricted,Super refers this to the Cheif Comissioner The cheif has now to consider THREE referalls from down the chain,causing the paperwork to climb in triplicate for the Gardai and that there is a CYA built into it for the middle ranks.
THAT IS MY POINT,and it seems to be what the Gardai are basing it on themselves.With no doubt plenty of Garda self made up extras.:(

Exactly. And if it's you that tries, good luck to you and please let us know how it goes; but I wouldn't want to be the first to try and I don't think I'll be volunteering for the role for a good few months until I have a chance to save up for the trip

What??You want a semi auto rifle????:eek: Goood Lord!Theres hope for you yet..:D

Sparks

the current application

Ah.
See, I missed that bit, I thought you were talking about how the new system would work.

What??You want a semi auto rifle???? Goood Lord!Theres hope for you yet..

Semi auto rifle? Why the heck would I want one of them? Don't be daft, I prefer a rifle that's accurate.
Now a semi auto pistol, well, that's something else. That's two events in the Olympics and another four or five in ISSF...
And a fullbore rifle, that's another four or five ISSF events at 300m.

Quillo

Here's a nice one from Tom Hayes:

A chara,


Thank you for your recent correspondence in respect of proposed increases to the cost of gun licences.

I am opposed to the increase in gun licence fees proposed in the Finance Bill.

As you may know, at present the issue has been ‘parked’ for twelve months. However, when discussion takes place at national level, I will certainly vocally oppose any increase in gun licence fees.

Many thanks for getting in touch with me in respect of this issue.



Yours sincerely,

Tom Hayes T.D.
South Tipperary

Vegeta

Got that one aswell

Clare gunner

Semi auto rifle? Why the heck would I want one of them? Don't be daft, I prefer a rifle that's accurate.

Never shot a HK PSG 1 or Springfield M1a National match then????:p

Sparks

Pah. You show me an accurate semi-auto, I'll show you a more accurate single-shot

Clare gunner

Like I said the above two or the Sig 550 sniper version.While you are reloading..I'm shooting:p

Sparks

That's fine by me CG - there's an hour and 45 minutes to shoot sixty shots, so I don't need to hurry, I need to put them in the center of the target

ironsight

This may be off Thread ~ BUT !

Has anyone seen an "Official" list of restricted firearm's yet.... ?

I am negotiating with the Gardi since january 12th in respect of a certificate and they still insist on refusing to co-operate, so I would be curious to know what they are going to term restricted.

Sparks

Has anyone seen an "Official" list of restricted firearm's yet.... ?

No, not even those saying they have. The list shown to the shooting organisations earlier was a draft; it has since been changed, but the DoJ isn't releasing it at the moment. The NTSA met them a few days ago and we specifically asked that the draft list as it stands now be released to the general shooting community to address the resentment it seems to be causing. We didn't get told no, but we were told that the decision lay with the secretary and he was holding off because of the publicity over the Virginia shootings. Personally, I think a lot of this has been parked until after the elections, and probably even after that until the Dail returns in June.

Clare gunner

Getting BORING hearing this old tripe about Virginia being an excuse for things not being handed out or delayed.
I didnt realise that Ireland has offically become the 51st state of the Union!!!:(
If it has,well then we have nowt to worry about as the constitution of the US then applies with the 2nd amendement in full.
If we are supposedly an independant nation,what the Hell has a tragedy in the USA 2.5 K miles away got to do with our firearms laws???????

That secetary has a LOT of explaining to do here.:mad: This S"ite wont wash anymore.:mad:

civdef

Lads, don't get too upset, last thing we need right now is some aspiring TD to jump on details of the list and make a political football out of it.

rrpc

Which I'd say is exactly why it's not being released at the moment.

Clare gunner

Just got a call from Willie O Deas clinic [Sat 12:20].from his secetary wanting clarification on the current liscense situation and the pricing and how the proposed liscensing will affect Irish shooters.Got the same agreement that this current situation is daft,and that O Dea intends to do somthing about this soon[date unspecified].
However the intresting thing is ODea is shadow spokesman for Justice in FF,[didnt know that!]and there seems to be things moving behind the scenes with this ,and that the establishment wants to keep it sthum.Anyone know or heard anything going on of a simmilar tone from their contacts?

Sparks

This news that the PDs may walk from government is something to keep an eye on - if Minister McDowell and the PDs do walk, then no further SIs can be signed until after the election meaning that all the new legislation on range licences, 3-year licences, etc, etc, cannot be commenced until after the election; and it's not hugely likely that it'd be the same person in the Ministerial seat afterwards. On the other hand, the SIs could be signed on the way out the door...

astraboy

Whats an "SI" sparks sorry?

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

This news that the PDs may walk from government is something to keep an eye on - if Minister McDowell and the PDs do walk, then no further SIs can be signed until after the election meaning that all the new legislation on range licences, 3-year licences, etc, etc, cannot be commenced until after the election; and it's not hugely likely that it'd be the same person in the Ministerial seat afterwards. On the other hand, the SIs could be signed on the way out the door...

Interesting insight, Mark I understand that the NTSA met with officials of the DOJ earlier this week.

A report on the meeting I am sure would be appreciated by all interested parties.

So often you have in the past accused me of not circulating information maybe the shoe is on the the other foot.............report please!

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

This news that the PDs may walk from government is something to keep an eye on - if Minister McDowell and the PDs do walk, then no further SIs can be signed until after the election meaning that all the new legislation on range licences, 3-year licences, etc, etc, cannot be commenced until after the election; and it's not hugely likely that it'd be the same person in the Ministerial seat afterwards. On the other hand, the SIs could be signed on the way out the door...

The PDs will not walk away from the government.

The PDs are only holding talks to look like they have a moral conscience

Why would they give up the justice and health ministerial positions, party suicide.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Interesting insight

It's not an insight, it's a legal point.

I understand that the NTSA met with officials of the DOJ earlier this week.

Indeed we did, myself and the NTSA Chair. As reported here.

A report on the meeting I am sure would be appreciated by all interested parties.

I'm sure it was.

So often you have in the past accused me of not circulating information maybe the shoe is on the the other foot.............report please!

Too late Declan, information was already circulated earlier this week, both by email to our members and on boards here. It wasn't in a filed report entitled "What the NTSA did last week", it was just put forward in this thread and in the monthly NTSA eMailshot.


Now, about that report of your meeting with the DoJ...

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

It's not an insight, it's a legal point.


Indeed we did, myself and the NTSA Chair. As reported here.


I'm sure it was.


Too late Declan, information was already circulated earlier this week, both by email to our members and on boards here. It wasn't in a filed report entitled "What the NTSA did last week", it was just put forward in this thread and in the monthly NTSA eMailshot.


Now, about that report of your meeting with the DoJ...

Well apologies all round, perhaps you will post the link to the thread I must of missed it!

As posted the meeting we had with the DOJ was attended by the Chairman of the SSAI and it was agreed that he would do the report, now as this was posted before Mark are you just being stupid or argumentive as ususal.

Sparks

perhaps you will post the link

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055087518

We have met with the Department of Justice and are still pushing for further meetings between the NTSA and the Department...This issue has not been resolved, it seems to be simply parked until after the election

And from post 408 above in this thread:

No, not even those saying they have. The list shown to the shooting organisations earlier was a draft; it has since been changed, but the DoJ isn't releasing it at the moment. The NTSA met them a few days ago and we specifically asked that the draft list as it stands now be released to the general shooting community to address the resentment it seems to be causing. We didn't get told no, but we were told that the decision lay with the secretary and he was holding off because of the publicity over the Virginia shootings. Personally, I think a lot of this has been parked until after the elections, and probably even after that until the Dail returns in June.

and that was it - the rest of the meeting was basicly just an introduction to our sport for the new chap in the Firearms section. We were shown no new documents, and nothing new was discussed. The consultation panel did get mentioned, but that's at a very early stage in there and while they think it'll go ahead, they don't even have a full list of the groups they want to approach to brainstorm about it yet.

maglite

10 May 2007


Dear Mr X


I am directed by the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Michael McDowell, to refer further to your correspondence of 13th April 2007 regarding the increase in firearms licence fees.


Under the Criminal Justice Act 2006, the present frequency of licensing of firearms and the registration of Firearms Dealers on an annual basis is changing to a three yearly basis – primarily to free up Garda time and resources. The new scheme, however, will not take effect until 2008, so the licensing process will go ahead on the usual annual basis this summer under the old fee structure.

In relation to the increase in charges, the Department of Finance and Revenue Commissioners advised the Tánaiste & Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that, since the last time the fees were changed in 1992 there had been a 51% increase in the Consumer Price Index. The new fee structure reflects this increase as well as a tripling of the annual rate to reflect the new three year term.

It was not intended that the increase should cause undue hardship or difficulties for those who have to obtain licences. As it will be some time before the new fees arise, in the interim the Tánaiste will consider any legitimate concerns which licence holders may have.

Officials of this Department met recently with two of the Shooting Organisations to discuss a number of issues relating to the new licensing regime. The Tánaiste is anxious that the programme of change which is being undertaken proceeds smoothly and has legitimate regard to all the interests involved, not least the public interest. It is in that context that the Tánaiste is considering the establishment of a consultative panel to bring together the relevant stakeholders on a structured basis.

Yours sincerely

____________
Private Secretary

aparently i need to add a charicter to post a quote?

Vegeta

got the same myself this morning