Licence Fee Increases - Shooters Quite Unhappy.

Sparks

Will it matter anyway in the end Sidney? These fees will knock out the younger members of the sport because €170 is too much for them; it'll knock out the retireees because €170 or €405 is too much for them, and neither group gets a discount and both are vital to the sport. This isn't the final nail in the coffin for the sport, but it's definitely over the half-way mark.

The only way we can afford to keep the sport going is for us all to give up our firearms licences and donate our firearms to the clubs, who then get an authorisation for their use and storage. But that's just delaying the inevitable, because the next thing will be that the authorisations (now free) will suddenly be charged for or refused or will get saddled with a dozen conditions.

Basicly, we're boned.

Vegeta

everyone here is in the same boat. We have been shafted. We need to get it changed.

I believe demanding a detailed breakdown of
(a) why the price has gone up
and
(b) where the money goes
is the first step.

I am of the opinion that it should go directly back into shooting, road tax does (to roads obviously), tv license does so why not firearms license.

Sparks

Doesn't matter if it goes back into shooting Veg; it has to come out of shooting to do so, and how many under-16s do you know who can afford €170 for a training licence? And this the week of the report from the ISC about sport and underprivileged kids as well :mad:

civdef

Something tells me quiet work by the likes of the NARGC will be a lot more effective than the bickering and sniping we see here.

Sparks

I'm a bit tired of all this "quietness" to be honest Civ. The finance Act (yeah, I've just checked and it went through the report stage and is now law and not alterable) was nice and quiet. The drafting of the restricted list has been nice and quiet. The drafting of the CJB2004 stuff was nice and quiet. About the only time we've not been screwed over or sold out has been when things were good and loud, in my honest opinion.

And frankly, if we'd bickered and sniped a bit more earlier, we'd be better off now.

Sparks

Okay, so I do have one or two small bits of good news. Not much compared to todays ton of bricks, but here they are for what good they'll do.

A signed letter from the Minister (which isn't as good as legislation or an SI, but seems to be the best we can get so far):





The two little bits of good news are that hunters zeroing their firearms are now explicitly recognised by the Minister as not being engaged in target shooting and thus are exempt from section 4A of the Act (which required them to be on a range under serious penalties); and so NARGC gun clubs don't need to pay €1000 for range fees or build ranges; And that clay pigeon ranges are specifically exempted from the same requirements.

The new license fee is more expensive then my air pistol.... great

Clare gunner

OTOH if we are all going to be forking out grands for shooting,we are going to be able to sound off even louder in public as to how put upon we are by the Irish Govt,and showing what sort of greedy Bstds are running us and not giveing one iota back into the sport.Phryrric I know.....:mad:

I did point out awhile ago when the CJB was going thru,we should have been at Mc Dowells clinic handing in a letter of protest.I dont think "intrested parties" as individuals are paid any attention.You need a crowd with media attention to get any sort of results.Are we going to do anything with an election coming up?

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

OTOH if we are all going to be forking out grands for shooting,we are going to be able to sound off even louder in public as to how put upon we are by the Irish Govt,and showing what sort of greedy Bstds are running us and not giveing one iota back into the sport.Phryrric I know.....:mad:

Not to mention that the reduced numbers will result in an overall reduction in our already rather miniscule amount of clout.

I did point out awhile ago when the CJB was going thru,we should have been at Mc Dowells clinic handing in a letter of protest.I dont think "intrested parties" as individuals are paid any attention.You need a crowd with media attention to get any sort of results.Are we going to do anything with an election coming up?

Like? A march? See the anti-iraq war march. A petition? Yeah, 'cos it'll be heeded.

Unless we can vote out a Minister or buy one, direct political conflicts are never going to work for us

bullets

There is going to be an AWFUL lot of shooters out there that
will not know about the price hikes until it comes time to renew their licence/s.
Not everyone surfs the boards and I dont see these price hikes
being advertised or any way that current firearms holders are being
informed in advance about them.

You may have a lot of people in Ireland that own firearms that all
of a sudden may be restricted and they could be in for an awful shock.

If there was a way for everyone that has a licence to be sent a letter
or informed of the changes nationwide there may be a bit more of a reaction
than just the ol net junkies like ourselves.

~B

Clare gunner

Thats a Fact Bullets. Wonder what will happen when ol Paddy Joe down the country gets the bill on July 31st for his ol shotgun??? Straight off to the farmers unions to complain.Dont worry in the hubbub of the election,it will be forgotten about to inform us minority about the increase.
Sparks,
to use your example of the anti war demos.Yes,big news when it happened,but the anti American crowd[and I will use that term,as really this has nothing to do with being anti war ,but anti American policy].They were so eclectic in their views and had so many different cheifs wanting so many different things,as well as the usual contingent of prima donnas,martinets,and princesses having hissy fits that the wasted whatever advantage they had in public favour.[Hmm that does sound fammilar....:) ]Plus they were lesbians had beards and werent up much on washing.:D[tounge firmly in cheek] So who will take that seriously.?
Indymedia is full of them ranting at each other.Be that as it may,at least they protest and hold some sort of demo about their greivances,[apart from bashing the odd US Navy aircraft as well.]
When was the last time Irish shooters did such??? We rely too much on comitties behind closed doors,old boy trust and Dail lunches.It is about time the little folks said their piece as well,as we only hear from the above three when it is all over,if at all,and what THEY want to tell us.
Thinking more along the line of a bunch of us showing up at Mc Dowells/Aherns/Cowens door and handing in a petition of why not one undersigned of the shooters will vote for him in the election or his party .

It was in the Dec/Jan Shooters digest ,that NARGC was going to run an independant canditate on the shooting issues.Who,what,when,where? Has anyone heard about this further?It is somthing that should be seriosly considerd.I mean,which politican would not give their eye teeth for grauenteed of 250k voters,at least 80k? Ok,I know you will say there other issues bothering us all more importantly than shooting..BUT I for one,will make sure that my vote is going to the most pro gun party canditate that darkens my door.Maybe this is the time to ask ourselves what is more important pirorities to us in our bread and circuses,and wether to put up or shut up about the state of Irish shooting in the future. We have achived,wether by accident or design a change in fortune for 30 odd years of nothing.Now,this election will show,are we willing to push beyond our miniscule number in noise and weight.[Remember in the 1980s in the UK,it only tookappx 100 hardcore activists to pretty much smash the poll tax.Somthing 1000% more important than shooting ever was.]
OR will we just be content to leave it to our elected organisations,or" arra couldnt be arsed to do anythin" attitude,or just slag each other off,about who did what when they shouldnt have,for another 30 plus years???It's now YOUR choice reading this.Do Somthing,and at least know you tried and won/lost/drew.Or sit on your ass,do nothing,and complain?If you take the 2nd option you will deserve everything that befalls us as Irish shooters in the future!!!!

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Wonder what will happen when ol Paddy Joe down the country gets the bill on July 31st for his ol shotgun?

I wouldn't worry CG, if what I hear is true, phones have been ringing off hooks all day long over this.

Sparks,
to use your example of the anti war demos.Yes,big news when it happened,but the anti American crowd[and I will use that term,as really this has nothing to do with being anti war ,but anti American policy].They were so eclectic in their views and had so many different cheifs wanting so many different things,as well as the usual contingent of prima donnas,martinets,and princesses having hissy fits that the wasted whatever advantage they had in public favour.[Hmm that does sound fammilar....:) ]Plus they were lesbians had beards and werent up much on washing.:D[tounge firmly in cheek] So who will take that seriously.?

Yeah. It was, after all, only the second largest march in the history of the Irish state. And was only replicated in the major towns and cities nation-wide. And they were after all, not being quiet about it.


Of course, there were more bearded lesbians walking about that day than there are shooters in Ireland, but that's not important in a democratic system where they count votes, is it?

When was the last time Irish shooters did such??? We rely too much on comitties behind closed doors,old boy trust and Dail lunches.It is about time the little folks said their piece as well,as we only hear from the above three when it is all over,if at all,and what THEY want to tell us.

You know what?
I'd have to agree.

It was in the Dec/Jan Shooters digest ,that NARGC was going to run an independant canditate on the shooting issues.Who,what,when,where?

Pfff. Waste of time. Maybe if we all lived in one constituency, but we don't - we're spread out (and thinly at that) round the nation. Even if we all voted at once, we wouldn't have a veto on even one TD. This whole "fight The Man" mentality is what's killing us.

Now, a grassroots movement, some twenty people a day showing up in someone's voting clinic, all arguing for better firearms legislation, while a body that didn't want 50 cal rifles for every ten-year-old; that would do some good.

Clare gunner

Yeah. It was, after all, only the second largest march in the history of the Irish state.

Being abit OT,but what was the largest march in the Irish state history??When somone threatened to bomb the Guiness brewery???:rolleyes: I was in Amsterdam on that day and the Dutch only botherd with 20k, in the Dam and the Hauge and they HATE the Americans with a passion post 9/11!!!
So I do take the stats of 250k abit liberally.

Of course, there were more bearded lesbians walking about that day than there are shooters in Ireland, but that's not important in a democratic system where they count votes, is it?

Maybe,if it was held closer to a general election possibly it would be.And lets face it,there is /was more at stake than a few hundred GIs knocking down the pints at Shannon.Nor do the beardies have money to fill the coffers at the race tent in Galway.:rolleyes:

You know what?
I'd have to agree.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
you do...???? Cough ..splutter[off for a stiff Jack Daniels]. A First ,Sparks actually AGREES with me!!:D

Pfff. Waste of time. Maybe if we all lived in one constituency, but we don't - we're spread out (and thinly at that) round the nation. Even if we all voted at once, we wouldn't have a veto on even one TD. This whole "fight The Man" mentality is what's killing us.

Just on that point;maybe somone can explain this voting process to me.If say,I dont want to vote for any of my local shower,cos they dont intrest/or repersent me properly.Is it possible to say,I want to vote ,but for mr X and he is in another consituency.is it possible to transfer votes to that canditate from outside his area??

Now, a grassroots movement, some twenty people a day showing up in someone's voting clinic, all arguing for better firearms legislation, while a body that didn't want 50 cal rifles for every ten-year-old; that would do some good.

That sounds dooable in every major town,city,barn ,dog and out house and reasonable,and I dont know of such an august body with such a outlandish demand here or anywhere else. Do we have any takers????

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Being abit OT,but what was the largest march in the Irish state history?

The PAYE protests in '79. Go after an Irishman's pockets...

I do take the stats of 250k abit liberally.

Don't. It was that big.

A First ,Sparks actually AGREES with me!!:D

Well feck it, it can't get too much worse than this, can it?

Just on that point;maybe somone can explain this voting process to me.If say,I dont want to vote for any of my local shower,cos they dont intrest/or repersent me properly.Is it possible to say,I want to vote ,but for mr X and he is in another consituency.is it possible to transfer votes to that canditate from outside his area??

Yes. You move house to the desired area and reregister there.
See what I mean about us being too spread out?

oldzed

a question .
if its 405 euro for the authorisation for a restricted firearm do we also have to pay the 170euro for a licence on top of this bringing it up to a lovely 575 € per gun ??
I feel sick since reading this today, I remember getting my first shotgun in 1988 and the licence was 13£ and my first rifle in 1990 and i think it was 18£, I remember going mad when the rifle went to 25£ and thinking it was really unfair . Now I dont know what to do as i have 4 rifles a pistol and 2 shotguns and without knowing whats on the restricted list , i reckon the pistol , 2 rifles , and both shotguns may be restricted so thats 5 @ 405€ + 2 @170, or 5 @ 575 and 2 @170 so its probably 2365 or 3225 and to think i was pissed off last year handing over 221€. I am also worried that there will be no resale value on the restricted firearms as very few will be willing to shell out 400 odd to license them, so selling a few is probably not an option either.

its like a sick joke waiting to see are my guns on the restricted list and even if they arent im still going to have to shell out a thousand euro to keep them .


what a complete shafting we have received.

a very despondent oldzed

Sandy22

Sparks wrote:

Well. I have to admit, I thought they'd be less straightforward than that, but I guess it'll do the job they intended the restricted list to do, namely, a de facto ban.

Doesn't Section 67 just apply to authorisations for dealers?

babybundy

hey lads just wondering could we compile a price list for all licence fees (not the dog licence either )

Sparks

Sandy22 wrote:

Doesn't Section 67 just apply to authorisations for dealers?

Looks like it. However, they still have to pay €405 to buy a firearm to sell on, which means the price of pistols and fullbores just jumped by €405 (unless gun dealers just became altruists).
Better than €405 every three years I suppose. Now you just pay it once...

Sparks

The NARGC's website did that for us:
http://www.nargc.ie/License%20Fees

SHOOTING COMMUNITY ABOUT TO BE HIT BY MASSIVE GOVERNMENT INCREASES



The Irish shooting community, incorporating both hunters and competitive target shooters, is about to be hit by exorbitant increases in firearms licence fees. The proposed fees appear in the Finance Bill 2007 and represent an enormous increase which cannot be explained by inflation or increased costs. In fact, as the licences are to be issued only every three years as opposed to annually, which has been the case up to now, there is a strong argument for a reduction in the fees to reflect the substantial saving in administration costs in two out of every three years.



The shooting and hunting associations, which represent more than 250,000 fieldsports enthusiasts are extremely angry, particularly as there was no consultation of any kind with them before the proposed fees were included in the Bill.



Des Crofton, Director of the largest of the associations, the National Association of Regional Game Councils with 27,000 gun club members, said the anger among his members is palpable. “The Government has definitely misjudged the reaction of shooting people. The fee for a rifle licence will rise to €170 for three years whereas the current fee for the same period (on an annual basis) is €114. This ignores the substantial savings which will be achieved by issuing the licences every three years instead annually. It represents an increase of 49.12%, much more when allowance is made for the saving in administration costs, which is simply unjustified. This Government clearly intends to rip us off before leaving office. The level of increases for other classes of firearms are even higher with a shotgun licence rising from €75 over three years to €115, an increase of 53.33% and second or limited shotgun licences from €18 to €30, an increase of 66.66%.”

Worst of all, it will cost a young person who wishes to train before taking up the sport €115 for a training licence for a shotgun and €170 for a rifle training licence, even though the training licence will not allow the licensee to own or possess a firearm.



Des Crofton said it is also significant that it is proposed to charge €1,000 for a target shooting club to be authorised and €1,000 for a range authorisation while in the commercial gun trade, a gun dealer’s licence is proposed to be only €340. He stressed that his members are involved in a sport and the Finance Bill proposals are nothing more than an invidious attempt to strangle the sport by putting it out of the reach of ordinary rural people.



Mr Crofton said this is an outright attack on shooting and hunting and he wishes to remind government candidates in particular that his Association has a club in almost every parish in the country. He said NARGC is also a Seanad nominating body and no party associated with these increases can expect any support from NARGC.



In a sample telephone canvas of NARGC members yesterday, feelings were running high.



ENDS



5TH April 2007

---

Proposed Firearms Licence
Renewal Prices as per the Finance Bill
Now x 3 Years Proposed per Finance Bill

Unlimited Shotgun Licence € 25 € 75 € 115
Limited Shotgun Licence € 6 € 18 € 30
Second and Subsequent € 6 € 18 € 30

Rifle € 38 € 114 € 170
Subsequent € 38 € 114 € 170

Junior Training Gun - - € 115
Junior Training Rifle - - € 170

Club Range Authorisation - - € 1,000
Firearms Dealer € 340

A 5 year Gun Licence in Nth. Ireland costs Stg£50 (€77) per
person for ALL firearms held !!

flight93

Does anyone know how much a pistol licence will cost? When are these increased fees ment to happen?

rrpc

I'm a bit confused here. The bill I have read (the one that passed the Dáil stages) and (to my mind) the latest compiled version states that all the new charges come into effect for new licences and renewals on or after 31st December 2007.

This means that Declan is right and for most of us it won't come into effect until July 2008.

Unless someone can point to a later amendment that changed the date to 31st July 2007 of course.

By the way, these charges were first published on 6th February this year (possibly earlier). We really should have seen this coming when we could have done something about it. It's too late now as it's passed all stages and been returned to the Dáil.

FLAG

Folks

I take RRPC's point we should have seen this in February, but then again all shooting organisations should have been consulted directly by Finance, we have lobbied Finance since 1998 for a change to the cost of a second rifle and now the same with pistols.......clearly to no effect.

However for all of the bitching by Mark, I was the one who brought the issue to DOJ and the same day discovered it in the Finance Bill, I immediatley upladed the info to the baroads and yet it is all my fault! according to Mr Denehy. As Secretary of the NTSA surely he should have been keeping his eye on ball also!

It would not be unreasonable to assume that they are using this in their misguided manner to try and reduce the numbers of lawfully owned firearms.

With respect to the fee for the dealer to trade in restricted firearms, this is an additional fee in addition to the normal fee, this is a single cost for a validity of three years, it does not mean that every time a restriced firearm is sold that they pay the fee.

In any case please see attached press releases from SSAI and NARGC, if it is too late then so be it but the training certificate issue needs to be sorted. Additionally in NI a five year fee of €73.50 covers all firearms, in contrast with the new 2008 fees, for an individual with a couple of rifles and afew shotguns numbering 6 in total the cost for five years equivalent is €1496.00!!

I can confirm that this will not come into effect until 2008 and none of the other providions of the current firearms amendments are likley to be implemented before the expiry of the current licensing period either, that includes range authorisations, conditions, guidelines etc, we should be getting an eyeball on the updated restricted list by 20th April.

Happy Easter
Declan
FLAG

Sparks

Declan, what the hell do you think you're doing releasing such a badly written press release on behalf of an organisation for whom you are not the PRO?

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

Declan, what the hell do you think you're doing releasing such a badly written press release on behalf of an organisation for whom you are not the PRO?

There is no PRO, what would you say is so badly written about it, perhaps it is time for a vote, and as a moderator of the board you should be moderating your language.

Release written as Charman of FLAG, no claim at being the PRO, the reason I resigned from that position was because of the torrents of abuse from yourgood self and you will note to date the position has remained unoccupied, not that it would concern you of course, you don't attend SSAI meetings!

Last post on the matter, I cannot take the bull from this man!

Sparks

There is no PRO so you can release press releases on behalf of a group where you are not on the committee and have not consulted with the groups they represent?
I don't think so.
I've submitted a complaint to the SSAI on the matter. It's bad enough your incompetence has landed us in here, I'm not willing to see you dig us in deeper with badly-written press releases and your usual "feck the rules" way of doing things.

Citizen_Erased

I'm guessing I am not the only one here not quite understanding the training license? I can understand that it would allow you to use the fire arm but at 3 times the price of an ownership license of a rifle isn't it a bit of a swindle. Not that I encouraged any sort of activity contrary to the law but would it not be that if the person who owns the gun is present , can that person not use it anyway? I know the government enforces ages on this in but all seriousness who will uphold that with say their own son etc?

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

There is no PRO so you can release press releases on behalf of a group where you are not on the committee and have not consulted with the groups they represent?
I don't think so.
I've submitted a complaint to the SSAI on the matter. It's bad enough your incompetence has landed us in here, I'm not willing to see you dig us in deeper with badly-written press releases and your usual "feck the rules" way of doing things.

Just to close this out, when a response is required to the situation as it has arisen one needs to respond quickly and to a time table not set by the constituent body of the associations, I am still mandated to act on behalf of the SSAI on matters pertaining to the current changes to the legislation.

On Wednesday we attended the Department of Justice, the present Chairman of the SSAI was present, when we learned of the potential issue related to the fees, the DOJ officials were not familiar with the detail of the Finance Bill and referred us to the Government Web site to get information.

We did a search of the Finance Bill 2007 and were astonished at what it contained.

Upon review we contacted the NARGC and informed them of the fee hikes, they were as unaware of these changes as us, I discussed in detail the issue with the SSAI chirman, and in consultation with the NARGC decided that a press release would be a good idea, the deadline was 10:00 this AM.

I wrote the press release between 05:00 and 7:00 this AM, it is designed to inform both politicians and public in as concise a manner as possible to the actual issues. The Press Release was circualted to the SSAI Chairman and Devlopment Officer for approval prior to release.

We are presently working on a strategy to respond to this difficult situation and how dare you accuse me of of causing this issue and accusing me of incompetence is unwarrented, unnecessary and untrue. Incompetence would not be a view not shared by many who know me.

I would apprecate an apology, don't expect to get one but clearly it is time for the boards moderators to step in as you are inflaming the situation with unwarrented comment.

I did say that my last post would be the last but clearly this needed clarification, I have no intention of continuing on this futile debate.

Declan

Clare gunner

Reading thru the Sparks/FlAG daily love notes.Am I to understand that these price hikes are to come into force in 2008???? Yes/No answer will do.

If that is the case,we have a year to keep this in the political eye.If not we must get our Butts in gear now!

I estimate we have appx 40 hard core posters here,who might do somthing to help this situation.That means we have 40 people sitting in front of proably the most powerful tool of the common man in the 21st centuary.The personal computor!
There are 7 political parties in this country with websites that list their TDs ,councillers, etc with contact fax nos and emails.Now,my suggestion would be that we draw up a sample letter that outlines our problems with this and email it and /or fax it to every one of them the length and breath of this country.Estimate there are 300 TD[couldnt find any exact nos] 300x40 emails =12000 emails s going to each individual TD,counciller of all political party in Ireland on the same subject every week up to the election which is what 6 weks away?12000x6 72,000 emails,following this up with if anyone does with phone calls, faxes,personal visits etc.

Sooner or later it will start to permate into their heads that there is a very peed off group of people out there who have a greivance in the shooting world in Ireland,and lets face it,a politican does not want their comms systems blocked up with the same message over and over again in election time.Unless they are going to pull their fax plug and their computor plug,refuse to meet anyone in their clinics.They will have to listen or read us.
The letter/fax /email should be a simple one page at most 4 point/paragraph outlining our greviance and sumarising with ther fact that isan election year and that the author will be considering how he will vote for the canditate in his response to this matter.
This is an idea that the gun groups use in the US,called the grassroots network.It is cheap,easy,and you can do as much or as little as you want in the campain.
Will anyone consider doing up the letter and doing this with me?

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

when a response is required to the situation as it has arisen one needs to respond quickly and to a time table not set by the constituent body of the associations, I am still mandated to act on behalf of the SSAI on matters pertaining to the current changes to the legislation.

Just so we all know, you're not. You are specifically not permitted to set policy for anyone. You do a job, under direction of the committee. You do not get to go off on your own on things like this.

Secondly, the NTSA is preparing a press release as we speak, with elected and professionally trained personnel on the job. You resigned Declan, I read your happy little letter in the Irish Shooters Digest myself. You were not elected by any shooter to the job you keep signing off on, and frankly, you shouldn't be in it.

how dare you accuse me of of causing this issue and accusing me of incompetence is unwarrented, unnecessary and untrue. Incompetence would not be a view not shared by many who know me.

You can keep telling yourself that, but I'd spellcheck my press releases before doing so if I were you. (I'd also look up what a "double negative" is in english grammar)

After all, the least you could have done was to have used good english. It's a press release, not a quick informal email to someone. "10's of 1000's"? For crying out loud...

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Am I to understand that these price hikes are to come into force in 2008???? Yes/No answer will do.

Yes. Which means we have a very short window, if a new minister is elected, to have the range authorisations put off commencment for a year and the fees lowered to something sane in the next Finance Bill. That would save anyone with a licence from the insane fees; but any new licence, well the licencees are stuffed.