Licence Fee Increases - Shooters Quite Unhappy.

Clare gunner

As of today 15 months and three weeks til July 31st 2008.When we wil know wether we suceeded or not.Countries have fallen in less and coup de etats have been conspired,plotted and carried out in less.Can we Irish shooters change Govt policy in that time???:eek:

Vegeta

What would happen if we as a group all decided not to pay until they were investigated and set at a reasonable level.

Sparks

The ERU showing up at doors to collect firearms and arrest people for illegal possession of firearms I think Veg.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

The ERU showing up at doors to collect firearms and arrest people for illegal possession of firearms I think Veg.

That'd certainly get us on the news, for all the wrong reasons i know

we are boned. simple as. I will vote/march/e-mail etc etc but we are so so screwed. Do golfers have to pay a golf club license, do soccer players have to pay a joining a club tax. This is complete and utter BS.

Thinking of moving country at this stage.

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

That'd certainly get us on the news, for all the wrong reasons i know

True. Plus, it's a conviction that means you lose all firearms for years, you may lose your job, and personally speaking, now that the ERU's been given tasers, I'd rather not find out what 20,000 volts through the left nipple feels like at four in the morning. I'm a bit of a stick-in-the-mud that way.

bullets

Vegeta wrote:

Do golfers have to pay a golf club license, do soccer players have to pay a joining a club tax. This is complete and utter BS.

Thats what Bugs me! You dont have to pay for a licence for most other
sports.

Why do we need to ""Pay"" for a licence at all. I would be all for
needing to "have" a licence as it proves your rifle/gun/pistol is yours
and that the Law knows about it and have OK'd you.

Its crazy that the government, law and even most joe soap public seem
to find every other sport acceptable and yet theres a huge distinction between
every other sport and shooting.

I mean I do clasical fencing where your are working with (safe) representations
of "weapons" used in real life for duels to hurt mame or kill back in the day.
I dont need a licence for doing this and in the summer we will often go to a public
park outside and practice (waving our swords around the place) while practicing all perfectly legal and nobody has a problem with it.

Archery where you go propelling Metal or wooden shafts/projectiles through the air
dont need a licence for that. Bows were used as weapons. Yet Joe Soap/GARDA/Government dont see the need to licence these.
and memeber of the public can walk in and buy one in the shops
and take it home same day.

Anyway drifitng off topic........
I'd have no problem sending emails/letters/faxes also.
Would not mind a pre-written up letter as I am useless at argueing
or getting my point across (and my spelling is Poo!)

I'm thinking now I should have answered to Door to WIlly O'Dea when
he came knocking yhe other night instead of ignoreing him. Next time
any of them up for election come knocking I will be out to my front door
asking them what their views are on this sport.

~B

Sparks

From one journalist I've talked to so far today, the recommendation was for us to be writing letters to the editors of the Times, the Tribune, and just about every other major paper out there.
So go for it, try to make a difference...

babybundy

robbing bastard$

Clare gunner

I'd rather not find out what 20,000 volts through the left nipple feels like at four in the morning.


Stunning to say the least:D But you wont feel a thing if you have done penty of coke or PCP.It is useless against somone totally hopped out of their skulls.[See Rodney King video]

Anyways folks,there is nowt point in moaning here.You are preaching to the choir. Get emailing,faxing,lettering to those that matter. DO Answer the door to the local rascal when he comes looking for his job renewal,and grill them on this,DONT let them go until you have a satisfactory answer [IYO] to this.
As I said we have 15 months ,we are not screwed unless we think we are.

Note to the Limerick /Clare crowd...If Willie O Dea does show up...talk to him.He is responsive on the gun issue [at least I have found him so]and will do what he can.Odd for a guy who gave us the firearms and offensive weapons act 1992 Maybe a spell as Min of defence educated him???
Letters to the editor,
Good idea,but unless the editor gets a flood of them in /from an area it wont rate much,next to some other local or national moan.Also if you over do it people will lose intrest in your cause.Somthing the antis suffer from.
Anyways do somthing..it is better doing a little than fuk all.

If you will not fight when you can win easily without bloodshed;if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly;you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival.There may be an even worse case.You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory;because it is better to perish than live as slaves. Winston Churchill

Take what you want from that above quote,but it does have some merit to our situation.We can win and change this,but it will take some work on ALL our parts.

Croppy Boy

I think the time to act is when electioneering starts. We may not have large enough numbers to bring about a change of government but then again, if we were to target the government TDs who barely scraped in in the last election, a couple of hundred votes in a constituency could make a difference.

If I remember correctly, McDowell only got in by a hand full of votes.

I'm not sure where you'd get this information but if it could be got and these vunerable TDs were told about our grievances it could be a powerful enougn lobby.

newby.204

so those of us that have just got into the shooting game are about to be priced out, wonderful!!!!

Sparks

For Immediate Release

OLYMPIC SHOOTERS RIPPED OFF BY DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

Dublin, April 6 -- The National Target Shooting Association today added its voice to the ranks of those in the target shooting sports who are angrily protesting the 50% hike in their licence fees which the Minister for Justice intends to introduce next year despite massive reductions in the cost of administering the licencing system.

At present, every year on August 1, Gardai all over the country must invest huge amounts of man-hours into processing applications for every legally held firearm in the country; over 250,000 at the present time. This time is utterly wasted. It does not make us safe. It does not reduce gun crime. It merely takes Gardai off the streets where the NTSA firmly believes they are required to combat Ireland's rising gun crime problems.

The new firearms certificates, introduced in the Firearms Act 2006, will now last for three years instead of one. The NTSA originally proposed the introduction of a five-year licence listing all firearms held by the licenced person, bringing Ireland into line with Great Britain and Northern Ireland in a bid to reduce paperwork and administrative costs.

The NTSA's proposed five-year licence would have meant that renewals would be reduced from 250,000 annually to approximately half that every five years, freeing up to 90% of those Gardai man-hours to be used to prevent gun crime instead of spending them on firearms licence paperwork.

The new three-year licences still licence the firearm instead of the owner; and without any form of study, dialogue, or notice, the price tag for the licences was increased this month from €38 to €170; an increase of 50% over the original per-annum fee.

This represents an enormous burden for target shooters. An individual who takes part in two or three olympic disciplines will be faced with a bill in excess of €500 every three years. A Junior shooter, starting off in the sport on one of the Minister's new training licences, faces a cost of €340 in licence fees alone. Not only must they get a licence, so must one of their parents as training licences do not permit juniors to own the firearm they train with. In addition to this, the clubs who support and train these athletes will also be faced with a bill of €1000 every five years in order to remain 'authorised'; a process that has yet to be defined by the government.

Ironically, these exorbitant fees were foisted onto olympic athletes in the same week as the Minister for Sport launched the Irish Sports Council and ESRI's "Fair Play? Sport and Social Disadvantage in Ireland" report, which showed that sport is becoming a pastime of the wealthy in Ireland.

Further, the fees for visiting target shooters have been raised to €57; the effect this will have on tourism as Olympic shooting teams choose another location other than the Republic for training camps for 2012 will be significant, and will cost us far more than €57.

The NTSA has striven to work with the Minister for Justice and support the new Firearms Act 2006; but cannot in conscience recommend these new fee structures to its members in light of the lack of consultation and the negative impact they will have on the sport.

The NTSA calls on the Minister for Justice to reduce his exorbitant fees to a more reasonable level and cites the fees paid in Northern Ireland, where a five-year licence costs only €77 - over 70% less than the equivalent cost per year in the Republic.

The NTSA further calls on the Minister for Justice to introduce a licensing system on the more sensible basis of 'one person, one license'. The current system is analogous to requiring an individual to carry a separate driving license for each car they may drive.

The NTSA, founded in 1994, is the National Governing Body for Olympic rifle and pistol target shooting in Ireland.


ENDS

Well done Sparks,

That is quite an impressive release

Dvs

Sparks,
do you think it serves any useful purpose,
to make four references to gun crime!

Garda time could be used in many constructive ways,
in other aspects of their function,
that are lacking manpower and resources.

Tackling crime involving the misuse of Illegal firearms,
is only a small part of their work.

Associating legally held firearms and gun crime in the same breath,
will not help us in any way.

Also your heading:
OLYMPIC SHOOTERS RIPPED OFF BY DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

Is this the start of a them and us defense or just an oversight?

perhaps:

SPORTS SHOOTING ATHLETES RIPPED OFF BY DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

might be more inclusive.

I personally care and will march for your right to shoot air rifles and pistols,
even though I have no involvment in those shooting sports disciplines.

Will you Sparks, do the same for those of us involved in,
Game shooting, vermin control, clay shooting,
centrefire pistol,centrefire rifle and practical shooting?

Dvs.

chem

Christ we are getting the royal treatment here alright. Its like anything else the government do. Just balls it up and charge a mint for the shafting.

Who is going to pay that much for a training licence? Its just going to make people break the law by takeing there son/daughter out with the gun for a shot of a sunday without a training licence. Now the gorernment have made it to expensive to get the licence and against the law to train a young person to shoot in a safe way. Lets face it we all had to learn from someone. And most of us learned from a family member. Who does`nt look back at the day when there dad 1st handed you his old 12 gauge in the field and said "go on son, take a shot"

Now unless you fork out for a training licence you are a criminal, if you hand a gun to a son/daughter and let them use it under supervision.:mad:

As for the restricted list, we are been told its only goin to be a copy of the 1925 list. there is no way in hell that the government is going to leave it at that. Not with them talking about gun actions, caliber size and types of ammo. Not to mention what conditions will be placed on the storage of these restricted weapons. Will I have to fork out over €400 for my licence then build a bunker in my garden? Suround it with a 10 foot high mound incase the tin of cordite for reloading explodes? then install an alarm that a bank would be proud of?

Umiq88

Is this some sort of joke €470 just so i can keep three guns for three years are they nuts.

Thats the cost of a gun every three years more or less thats like saying someone with three cars should pay 10,000 in tax every three years

Bad enough as it is is there some sort of petition i can sign?

civdef

Ring your local TD, they are very receptive this time of year.

Sparks

Dvs wrote:

Sparks,
do you think it serves any useful purpose,
to make four references to gun crime!

Yes, in the way it was done.
Dog bites man is not news.
Target shooting association calls for more action on gun crime is. It also clearly delineates between us and criminals because it has us calling for them to be stopped.
Same way that hunter's association fights minister for environment in court to prevent birds being shot is news.

Is this the start of a them and us defense or just an oversight?
perhaps:
SPORTS SHOOTING ATHLETES RIPPED OFF BY DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
might be more inclusive.

Indeed it would be - and it would have been reprehensible to have used such a title.

The NTSA represents olympic rifle&pistol shooting. We do not represent game shooting, vermin control, clay shooting, centrefire pistol,centrefire rifle and practical shooting. And unlike other groups, we are not trying to speak for those we do not represent.

And if you took the time to read the first line of the release instead of trying to look for fault where there is none, Dvs, you would have seen your point of view was in error, and that this way of doing things has more advantages than problems.

Please note; this is an NTSA press release. We don't try to speak for those who have no vote in our election and are bound not to do so by law, since we're not a private club.

Clare gunner

Ok sorry folks,It was pointed out to me by a couple of posters here[thanks guys].That there was an error in my flyer on the Restricted firearms fees.
Duely corrected and reposted.
As before please feel free to copy and distribute by any means.
Regds
CG

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

Yes, in the way it was done.
Dog bites man is not news.
Target shooting association calls for more action on gun crime is. It also clearly delineates between us and criminals because it has us calling for them to be stopped.
Same way that hunter's association fights minister for environment in court to prevent birds being shot is news.


Indeed it would be - and it would have been reprehensible to have used such a title.

The NTSA represents olympic rifle&pistol shooting. We do not represent game shooting, vermin control, clay shooting, centrefire pistol,centrefire rifle and practical shooting. And unlike other groups, we are not trying to speak for those we do not represent.

And if you took the time to read the first line of the release instead of trying to look for fault where there is none, Dvs, you would have seen your point of view was in error, and that this way of doing things has more advantages than problems.

Please note; this is an NTSA press release. We don't try to speak for those who have no vote in our election and are bound not to do so by law, since we're not a private club.

Well Mark this really puts you and the NTSA in a very poor light.

The issue here really is not who represnts who but the fact that every firearm that is owned and licensed by an individual will be put in danger because of a disproportinate increase in certification fees.

The SSAI press release which you so doggedly objected to, put forward a view that all of the shooting public would be effected by the increase. It provided a very broad view of the issue.

Now clearly you and the represntatives of the NTSA seek to offer your views to the total exclusion of the shooting community, this is very clear from your response to DVS, what a pity.

On the the range of the East Coast Shooting Club this AM, one shooter remarked that if this crisis that is effecting all shooters does not have the effect of pulling all of us togather then nothing will!

The attitude that you put forward on these very public boards is clear that the NTSA (as potrayed by you) will represent themselves to the total exclusion of all other shooters, not what we need at a time like this.

It would be helpful if we knew if this is the official policy of the current committee of the NTSA, since you yourself Mark are so keen to castigate everyone else for their activities based on your interpretation of everyone elses rules.

This is not a time for division, it is a time for cohesion.

Dvs

Sparks,
You have a history on this forum of demanding,
specific answers to specific questions,
and making a lot of noise about not being given answers,
could you now answer my specific questions please.

1. Is this the start of a them and us defense or just an oversight?

I personally care and will march for your right to shoot air rifles and pistols,
even though I have no involvment in those shooting sports disciplines.

2. Will you Sparks, do the same for those of us involved in,
Game shooting, vermin control, clay shooting,
centrefire pistol,centrefire rifle and practical shooting?

Dvs.

Lads,

Now is really not the time for this ****.

As it stands we have been screwed over by this Finance bill, and as FLAG, CG and others have pointed out, we do not need a split right now.

Personally, I only take part in target shooting but I support all other forms of shooting and, to be honest, so would most of the target shooters I know. There is very little elitism and snobbishness in shooting thank god.

To return to the matter at hand;
What we don't need is to renew the jurisdiction debate, what we do need is to get our voices heard.
I would expect the NTSA and all the other governing bodies and organisations to start lobbying people and releasing press releases. Each body will probably focus on its own area, AND THAT IS FINE. The important thing is that the message will go out. A show of solidarity is called for, but each body will be better able to talk about its own discipline.

I would think that the clubs will also start to get in touch with TDs at a local level, and here again the various disciplines will be represented.

Finally, as a voter and shooter, I will be contacting my local TDs and highlighting the danger to shooting ON THE WHOLE in Ireland.

However, it will be fatal if we start bickering and infighting now.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Well Mark this really puts you and the NTSA in a very poor light.

Actually, it just shows that we mean what we say when we say that we intend to follow rules; and it shows that you can't be trusted to do the same.

Now clearly you and the represntatives of the NTSA seek to offer your views to the total exclusion of the shooting community, this is very clear from your response to DVS, what a pity.

Bull. The NTSA is not just entitled to represent its shooters, we are bound by law to do so. We did so in a way that doesn't step on anyones toes, that clearly supports all other shooters, but which clearly does not say we're in charge of them, which frankly, would have caused more than one back to get up, and yours would be among the first.

The attitude that you put forward on these very public boards is clear that the NTSA (as potrayed by you) will represent themselves to the total exclusion of all other shooters, not what we need at a time like this.

That's utter bull**** Declan, and you well know it.
It's you we have to worry about, because you don't bother to tell anyone what you're planning until you've screwed it up and we have to cope with the fallout.

This is not a time for division, it is a time for cohesion.

What it's time for is for you to stop trying to use a mess you've created as an excuse to try to say you represent us.

Sparks

Dvs wrote:

could you now answer my specific questions please.

I'm sorry Dvs, I thought I had. I'll be more explicit:

1. Is this the start of a them and us defense or just an oversight?

No, it is not. The first line of the press release is adamant - we are adding our voices to those of all the other shooting organisations, saying exactly the same thing as they are.
But because the NTSA isn't in charge of (say) practical shooting, we can't speak to their thoughts on the matter, and would not. I fail to see how anyone can think that the lack of an urge to try to pull a fast one at this time is in any way a bad thing; and Declan's attempt to do so reflect very badly on the NRPAI/SSAI approach to such things.


2. Will you Sparks, do the same for those of us involved in,
Game shooting, vermin control, clay shooting,
centrefire pistol,centrefire rifle and practical shooting?
As I said above Dvs, we already are. But unlike Declan, who wants to speak for you, we will be speaking to support you; the two are not the same, because today he speaks for you and tomorrow he'll be speaking on your behalf and probably without telling you what he'll say first, and next week he'll be speaking to you and giving instructions. You're free to do as you will, and while I can think you'd be daft to let that happen, it's no skin off my nose if you do because I don't want to run your sport; but I am bound by common law to oppose him doing this to us, no matter what excuse he uses.

Clare gunner

Flag/Sparks.Without alienating either of you further.

Could the both of you just CAN IT for now????:( These constant love notes between you two are getting boring and I am sure on everyone elses on the boards here is beginning to feel the same!

It is totally IRREVELANT as to who screwed up on this issue now.As a matter of fact I dont recall anyone or shooting organisation making any noise on this matter pre budget.So we were all asleep on this,so it lies collectively with the shooting community and it's organisations.

What is important is that we get ourselves out of this mess in some shape or form.Which will not be done by two repersentatives of two Irish shooting bodies throwing their teddies out of their prams at each other on a public forum!! Man! If I was a hack anti gun journalist checking out this forum,you two would be giving me a Pulitizer prize in the hate and venom you two show each other. Consider for once,who else might be reading your posts and what could be done with that against us Irish shooters in general.
Headlines like; Mouths shooting off between Irish shooting bodies.Is somthing we can all do without at the moment.
Y'know,if you two spent more time and creativity in figuring out ways to sort out this mess or making it public as what you do in bitching at each other on this board,we would be almost at the end of the beginning of this problem.

Everyone now knows you two will never see eye to eye on anything.So why not just concentrate on your own way of sorting out this larger problem,without carping on about the other s attempt?

Abit of leadership and /or dignity would be in order here. I dunno if any of your members of your associations read the posts here.But I wouldnt be too impressed if I was a member of either to see comittee members,leaders,most high poobahs, or whatever involved in what amounts to a personal verbal on going street brawl while there is a looming serious crisis that effects us all.

My 2 cents
Wishing U all Happy Easter
Clare Gunner.

Sparks

CG,
I can see where you're coming from; but this sort of crap from Declan isn't acceptable. It's bad enough we have these new fees to try to fight, having someone running about like a loose cannon, not talking to anyone, and talking "on our behalf" without letting us know what's going to be said beforehand; well that's just going to make it like carrying water in a sieve.

Dvs

Sparks wrote:

I'm sorry Dvs, I thought I had. I'll be more explicit:

Sparks,
You will have to be more forthcoming with your answer to question 2.

I will be more explicit in asking it,
If it comes to firearms license holders,
marching in Dublin and protesting outside the dail,
for this or any other legitimate reason,
and your air rifle and pistols are not directly under threat,
will we see you at the protest lending your support in solidarity,
with fellow shooting sports athletes?

Sparks

Dvs wrote:

You will have to be more forthcoming with your answer to question 2.

Well I'm glad I have to be Dvs, I'd hate to think I was just doing so because it was the right thing to do...

If it comes to firearms license holders,
marching in Dublin and protesting outside the dail,
for this or any other legitimate reason,
and your air rifle and pistols are not directly under threat,
will we see you at the protest lending your support in solidarity,
with fellow shooting sports athletes?

So you want me to say the NTSA will back up any protest, made by any person because they have a firearms licence? Of course I won't do that. And no, that's not me saying that they won't back up a protest either. It's me saying I won't make their decisions for them like some sort of dictator. There are bloody good reasons for this:

Firstly, the NTSA isn't someone's fiefdom, and it certainly isn't mine. Decisions are made by the board, who are elected by the members. If I turn about and say that the NTSA will do something, I'm making a mockery of the whole process, and saying to the members that their vote doesn't count for anything. I don't think that behaving like that is something the members need from their NGB; they get enough of it from the DoJ.

Secondly, I've said it a million times - we as shooters are not one monolithic group. Some of us won't agree with the others on everything. On this issue, we're all agreed; but there have been issues in the past where we'd have differed. For example, some years back, the choice was on the table of having .22 and air pistols back, but we had to put off fullbore for a while. The choice was made to say all or nothing, and so we got nothing. Now me, I personally feel that that was a disgrace and we should have taken what we had on offer and then pursue the rest afterwards.

And guess what? According to the law, I could not make any other decision if I was asked. I'm bound to represent the best interests of the NTSA membership first and foremost. This is not something unique and sinister about the NTSA - it is precisely and exactly the same arrangement as the ICPSA, the NARGC, the CAI, the FIS, the ISC, the OCI, and several of the clubs like the Kerry clubs, BRC in wicklow, and a few others - all of them are bound to represent their members first and foremost under company law, and if they fail to do so, their members can declare their actions to be ultra vires meaning that any contracts or agreements are null and void.

In other words, our members are not a resource to be used by others and taken for granted; they are good people who will stand with a good cause.

Clare gunner

Bulk email every TD and minister in Dail Eireinn.There are lists a plenty of their emails on their parties websites.A nice 4 point letter on
The shafting price of this,
The non justification or necessity of a 50% fee increase,
A comparision to NI where it costs 77euros for five years and why are we unable to copy the NI /UK liscense system,when we when it suits can copy or ape every other bit of legislation that suits from Westminister?
That this is an election year ,and that on their response to this you will be basing your voting choice.

Dvs

Sparks,
I did not ask about the NTSA.


I asked about You as an individual.

Will we see you,
at any marches to support fellow sport shooting athletes,
If their disciplines are under threat,
while yours are not directly threatened.

Dvs.