Licence Fee Increases - Shooters Quite Unhappy.

Vegeta

I just got this reply from a Cecilia Keaveney

George ur email is v long. I will try2get time2read it over the weekend.

I nearly laughed out loud, have to love the txt speak. She'd get a warning from a mod here for that sort of thing.

We're doomed

civdef

Good God! Least it shows she read it personally.

I'm not doing the email every TD in the country thing, concentrating on ringing my local ones (and serious candidates) and follwing up with emails. Depending on responses, I'll see about talking to some of them in person.

Vegeta

Just got a phonecall from Timmy Dooley.

I explained the situation and he said he'd look into it for me and get back to me.

Quillo

Just got a reply from Michael Lowry personally asking for my phone number so he could keep me updated.

Sparks

Dick Roche wrote back to say he'd raised our concerns with the Minister for Justice.

maglite

Thank you for your recent e-mail.

Section 68 of the Finance Act, 2007, which has now become law provided for
increases in the rate of excise duty on firearms certificates. The
government argument was that the increase provided for on the new three
year licence ( from €114 to €170) was roughly in line with the increase in
inflation over the same period.

The increase did not feature as an issue at all in the debate on the
Finance Bill which ran to some 220 pages
dealing with a wide range of financial and taxation issues and the Labour
Party therefore did not oppose this particular Section.

Yours sincerely,

Joan Burton TD

Sparks

maglite wrote:

Section 68 of the Finance Act, 2007, which has now become law provided for increases in the rate of excise duty on firearms certificates. The government argument was that the increase provided for on the new three
year licence ( from €114 to €170) was roughly in line with the increase in inflation over the same period.

Thing is, inflation refers to the price paid for goods or services.
Since we get neither, why would the price change?

The increase did not feature as an issue at all in the debate on the
Finance Bill which ran to some 220 pages dealing with a wide range of financial and taxation issues and the Labour Party therefore did not oppose this particular Section.

Well, fair's fair, if we don't catch it we can't expect them to do it for us.

Sparks

Just in...

Dear Mark,
I just wish to acknowledge your email concerning the increase in firearms
licensing fees. I have taken the liberty of forwarding your correspondence
to my colleague, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, Fine Gael Spokesperson for Justice,
Equality & Law Reform for his consideration.
Kind regards,
Olivia Mitchell TD
Fine Gael Spokesperson on Transport

Rew

My local TD's and hopefull TD's emailed anyway...

Vegeta

maglite wrote:

Thank you for your recent e-mail.

Section 68 of the Finance Act, 2007, which has now become law provided for
increases in the rate of excise duty on firearms certificates. The
government argument was that the increase provided for on the new three
year licence ( from €114 to €170) was roughly in line with the increase in
inflation over the same period.

The increase did not feature as an issue at all in the debate on the
Finance Bill which ran to some 220 pages
dealing with a wide range of financial and taxation issues and the Labour
Party therefore did not oppose this particular Section.

Yours sincerely,

Joan Burton TD

I got this response also, they're blaming it on inflation lads.

What's a good counter arguement. Sparks I see you say its only for good and services. Is this in legislation anywhere that I could quote.

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

I got this response also, they're blaming it on inflation lads.
What's a good counter arguement. Sparks I see you say its only for good and services. Is this in legislation anywhere that I could quote.

I'm looking, but I'm not sure if something as basic as pointing out that inflation and the consumer price index relate only to goods and services by definition would be in a law...

Vegeta

keep it up lads they are definitely talking about it at this stage

maglite

is the rate of inflation over the years close to 66%???????

we dont get much of a service is another point

Clare gunner

This was only the first email wave. We have to keep their attention on this matter. Next week,send the same email twice,especially to those non responsive lot emails.Week after three times.
Election time four times a week,and closer it gets to election the more we surge and fill their inboxes and fax lines.
When they doorstep you or canvass.DO Not let them go until they understand that you WILL NOT vote for them or their party unless they give a concrete undertaking to repeal this part of the act when in office.If they should "forget " this matter remind them gently that all gun owners will "remind" them of their promises by the same way we brought it pre election to their attention.
Folks,this is working:D and I am amazed that we have got this far with some airtime and responses.Keep it up and them under pressure.:D Take a few hours off and go visit your TDs clinic ,so they see us in person,and tell them the same message.Lower liscense fees or no vote.

BTW glib blames like Joan Burtons reply will cut no ice with us.Respond to her with somthing on the line of..Fine it wasnt pointed out to you in the Dail that this would affect shooters.What are you going to do about it if you want my and other Irish gunowners votes for your party???

newby.204

just sent emails again to that list twice, just to really annoy them, ill do it again next weekend , and the weekend after that etc etc!!!! I really doubt we will do anything except make ourselves heard but better than nothing!!!!

Sparks

You know, eFax.com and yacfax.ie both offer free trials... you could send faxes to all the government ministers and TDs and so on...

rrpc

You know lads, the whole point of the three year licence was to have the same licence as in the north, GB and (most of) the rest of europe. The other side of that coin was to get 'one man, one licence' rather than the current 'one firearm, one licence'.

To say we were ripped off is to put it mildly, they took half the idea and threw away the other half which would have been a much more equitable system.

How many of you would be grumbling if they had said that in future you needed one licence for all your firearms and it would cost €170 for three years?

And of course the totally headless assertion of a three year training licence for fourteen year olds, which would only be used for two of those years!

In answer to Joan Burton, you could ask her why the same criteria is not used for driving licences, passports and TV licences. In fact, if the TV licence went up by 50% in five years, do you think she wouldn't notice?

Clare gunner

[

[To say we were ripped off is to put it mildly, they took half the idea and threw away the other half which would have been a much more equitable system.

'
Remember Ol Mc Dowell discussing this in the Dail???There was some smiling and sniggering about this.If I remember the posts correctly.Hope the smile will be on the other side of his fat chops when he is plonked on the opposition back benches.

QUOTE]How many of you would be grumbling if they had said that in future you needed one licence for all your firearms and it would cost €170 for three years?[/QUOTE]

I would, How about 150 euros for 3years???
37.5 million+/- At max 200 euros for five years 50 million +/- still from 250k shooters.Which we will still SEE FUK ALL going into Irish shooting.Just remember that minor point.We need to get somthing of value for once in this rippoff republic!!!If they want our votes.

In answer to Joan Burton, you could ask her why the same criteria is not used for driving licences, passports and TV licences. In fact, if the TV licence went up by 50% in five years, do you think she wouldn't notice

]

DAMN STRAIGHT!!!! It is facts like this we need to be able to throw back at them.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

You know, eFax.com and yacfax.ie both offer free trials... you could send faxes to all the government ministers and TDs and so on...

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

I'm about 120 faxes ahead of you, you understand

Chipboard

Reference No. C2113

Eoghan Xxxxxxx

email address: eoghanXxxxxxx@iolfree.ie

13 April 2007

Dear Eoghan

Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding the increased cost of
licencing firearms.

I am happy to personally make representations on your behalf to Mr.
Michael McDowell T.D., Tánaiste & Minister for Justice Equality and Law
Reform and I will closely monitor developments.

I will contact you again as soon as I have further news.

With every good wish

Yours sincerely

(Embedded image moved to file: pic06868.pcx)
________________
Seán Power T.D.

Minister of State
_____________________________________________________________________


Dear Mr Barry, (got my name wrong due to volume’s I’m sure ~lol)

On behalf of the Government Chief Whip and Minister of State to the
Taoiseach, Mr Tom Kitt TD, I wish to acknowledge your correspondence
regarding the increase in the firearms licence fee.

Minister Kitt has noted your comments and has asked me to forward your
correspondence to The Tánaiste and Minister for Justice Equality and Law
Reform Mr Michael McDowell TD who holds responsibility for this matter for
consideration and direct reply.

Le gach dea-ghuí


David Spencer
Government Chief Whip's Office
Department of Taoiseach
Government Buildings
Merrion Street
Dublin 2

Ph 619 4080

c.c. Private Sec Tánaiste and Minister for Justice Equality and Law Reform
_____________________________________________________________________


Dear Mr. Xxxxxxx,

Thank you email expressing your disappointment at the recent announcement
that licensing fees for firearms are going to be increased to exhorbitant
levels.

As my colleague Ciaran Cuffe T.D. is Green Party Spokesperson on Justice,
Equality & Law Reform, I am forwarding your mail to him for his
information and response.

Le gach dea-ghui,

TREVOR SARGENT, T.D.,
Leader, Green Party
Ceannaire, Comhaontas Glas

Spokesperson on the Taoiseach, N. Ireland,
Agriculture & Food and Gaeltacht Affairs
Dáil Éireann, Dublin 2. 01 6183465

VOTE GREEN IN 2007
Constituency Office & Dublin North / Fingal Green Party
1st Floor, 35 Main St., Swords, Co. Dublin, 01 8900360
E: trevor.sargent@oir.ie

Green Party National Office
16/17 Suffolk Street, Dublin 2.
01 6790012, e: info@greenparty.ie, www.greenparty.ie

_____________________________________________________________________

In the absence of Liam Aylward who is in Brussels on EU business, I
acknowledge receipt of your mail which I will bring to Mr. Aylward's
attention.

Helen Brady
Personal Assistant

_____________________________________________________________________

Dear Mr. Xxxxxxx,

Thank you for your email to Minister Haughey regarding provisions set out in the Finance Act 2007 and please be assured that it will be brought to his attention.

With best wishes,

Claire Turvey
Personal Assistant to Sean Haughey TD, Minister of State

Clare gunner wrote:

This was only the first email wave. We have to keep their attention on this matter. Next week,send the same email twice,especially to those non responsive lot emails.

Whats this 'next week' business Gunner. I only got five replies, what were all the others doing today??

None of my local represenatives replied. Boy am I going to have some sport with them when they turn up on the doorstep.

Clare gunner

:rolleyes:

Whats this 'next week' business Gunner. I only got five replies, what were all the others doing today??

None of my local represenatives replied. Boy am I going to have some sport with them when they turn up on the doorstep.

If I am reading this right,you mean by " the others"politicans,not us shooters???

Hey,I only got two,another from one of my local FGers telling me he is away and is answering on his Blackberry.:rolleyes:
Roughly 10+ replies sofar...OK they aint listening very well,or havent checked their emails.You are right Chipboard .Lets hit them again everybody tomrrow and Sunday and on Monday.Same letter/fax you sent before,it will permerate into them soon when they keep seeing the same thing day in day out.And more so as it keeps getting closer to election.Nice and simple,4 paragraphs.Got to keep it simple for them!:rolleyes:

Now,just a question here as there is a good grouping of us gun owners .
What is the maximum we will pay for this three year liscense?
If it could be changed what would we accept[a] 3years or 5 years
What would be the max for the five year liscense?

Me max 160 for 3 years 200 for the five year liscensing the man and not the guns on both.Proably wont get that man liscensing point thru as it stands,but it could be revised 2008.Anyway it is worth throwing in as a demand.

On another point when we start getting enquiries from politicans or media as to what this is all about.Who will we send them to for further info??Our shooting bodies and their PROs and dare I say the respective agendas of each organisation.
OR do we simply say;this is a grassroots initive by Irish gunowners,who are fed up of being a handy annual cash cow for respective present and previous govts to the tune of 6 million,and now they want to milk us for 15 million PA.Of which we see zip returned to our sport.
There is no leadership or spokespeople,or shooting organisation behind this,each individual has simply agreed to phone,email or fax their local and national canditates on this matter,or to do what they think best to forward this matter??
Discuss

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

:rolleyes:
Now,just a question here as there is a good grouping of us gun owners .
What is the maximum we will pay for this three year liscense?
If it could be changed what would we accept[a] 3years or 5 years
What would be the max for the five year liscense?

Me max 160 for 3 years 200 for the five year liscensing the man and not the guns on both.Proably wont get that man liscensing point thru as it stands,but it could be revised 2008.Anyway it is worth throwing in as a demand.

I don't agree CG. The most important issue for us is 'one man, one licence'. I frankly don't give too much of a damn about the €170 vs €160 or even €114 per licence issue, the other one is far more important and here's why:

As long as it's the firearm that's licenced, we will always be in a different league from our friends across the water and in Europe on this issue.

It makes a mockery of the training licence, because if you are bringing on a young shooter who isn't sure what code they want to pursue, you are into a very expensive process for both the young shooter and their parents, and we will lose them (if we ever get them in the first place).

We will always be cobbled with a cost problem because even a tenner on the cost of a licence could end up costing you fifty quid if you have five firearms.

If we give in on this now, our case for pursuing it later is greatly weakened.

And why should we have to have a seperate licence for each firearm? what possible reason makes this a necessity? what other sporting activity demands that the government gets a cut of your ownership of each piece of your equipment every x years for doing absolutely nothing?

This to my mind is the heart of the debate, and to drop it now would be a grave mistake.

Finally, you can't say that your shooting organisations are doing nothing. Sparks has done an incredible amount of work in a very short time on this, Des Crofton of the NARGC has been hard at work, and there are others out there working tirelessly to get this issue into the public domain.

What the rest of you guys are doing is great, but if you want to put politicians onto someone to carry it forward then nominate your own organisation if you have one, otherwise refer them to the NARGC or the NTSA. It was the NTSA after all that put forward the idea of single licencing in the first place.

rrpc

Here's a headline for you:

Joan Burton says Labour Party in favour of 50% increase in licence fees

If that appeared in tomorrows newpapers she would probably choke on her cornflakes

Kryten

SSAI Has been very silent on this. No posts or e-mails, phone calls or anything. I know FLAG has been on giving info, but not the SSAI itself.

What gives?

Clare gunner

rrpc wrote:

I don't agree CG. The most important issue for us is 'one man, one licence'. I frankly don't give too much of a damn about the €170 vs €160 or even €114 per licence issue, the other one is far more important and here's why:

As long as it's the firearm that's licenced, we will always be in a different league from our friends across the water and in Europe on this issue.

Agree 100%.I am just flying this to seewhat you people think and what we should say should anyone be contacted.

And why should we have to have a seperate licence for each firearm? what possible reason makes this a necessity? what other sporting activity demands that the government gets a cut of your ownership of each piece of your equipment every x years for doing absolutely nothing?

This to my mind is the heart of the debate, and to drop it now would be a grave mistake.

Preaching to the choir here,am not saying drop anything,but I am trying to be realistic that we have to push both issues thru at once and the way we have to deal with this pit of snakes in the Dail it is very possible we might get an either/or situation.Either 200 euros say,for the liscense PA,or a hideous price for the one man one liscense for five years.All I am saying is do we know what we want,and will be singing from the same hym sheet.

Finally, you can't say that your shooting organisations are doing nothing. Sparks has done an incredible amount of work in a very short time on this, Des Crofton of the NARGC has been hard at work, and there are others out there working tirelessly to get this issue into the public domain.

Indeed,and I am not knocking them ...far from it...BUT when this is all over,will one or the other organisations go and claim this initive as their own???Personally,I dont care,but if somthing goes pear shaped,will the same organisations immediately disaccoiate them selves from it and blame the others or whomever for this idea??

Iam just sayting that maybe this inititve is best kept seperate from the main bodies and it goes to ground until it is needed again.
Yes anyone can join in,as the idea is it encompasses all types of shooting folk who feel they are being screwed,irrespective of what organisations they belong to.Keep the shooting politics out of it,concentrate on one objective which we are doing very well.It shouldnt really be associated with any organisation, just annoyed Irish shooters who got together to protest by the most efficent means at their disposal extra to their organisations offical protests.If that makes sense...

rrpc

Well if we're in agreement here CG, then I would say that once we've got people's attention on the price hike issue, and they come back with the "what do you expect to pay?", or "what do you feel is reasonable" etc., we hit them with the one man one licence argument.

It's a reasonable request, requires less paperwork then the current proposal, and we're giving something back in terms of administrative hassle whilst at the same time making a huge leap forward for all of us.

The great thing about the OMOL (one man one licence) argument is that it truly is universal. Everyone from the clay shooter to the plinker and the olympic target shooter benefits, right down the line.

We can all unite behind it.

I think I've coined an acronym: OMOL.... like it

maglite

except the farmer with the awl shotgun for the vermin!

Clare gunner

OMOL sounds like a Russian secret police squad...Like it!!:D

Yeah the OMOL is basically common sense in all ways.BUT what I am saying is what are the technical details??? IE 3years or 5 years?Logically 5 years as our UK neighbours do this. How much?? It is doubtful that we would get away with 77 Euros.So realistically in rippoff Ireland prices without being ripped off totally what is a generally accepted price for OMOL we could get a consensus amongst ourselves and the organisations?I see it being appx 200 Euros for 5 years. 40 Euros PA?Not too bad.
The one other nasty trick I could see is that if we have restricted firearms.They will require a special "restricted firearms liscense" at somthing outrageous in price.Remember the VAT /VRT SCAM on cars??I wouldnt put it past any Irish politican to try a stroke like that.

As for the oul farmer with the vermin shotgun.Hate to say it he will become a thing of the past unless he gets moving and does somthing about it ...Like Now!!

rrpc

maglite wrote:

except the farmer with the awl shotgun for the vermin!

But realistically are they going to be that upset that they're paying 30 quid not to have to hang around a Garda station for three years?