Licence Fee Increases - Shooters Quite Unhappy.

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

OMOL sounds like a Russian secret police squad...Like it!!:D

Yeah the OMOL is basically common sense in all ways.BUT what I am saying is what are the technical details??? IE 3years or 5 years?Logically 5 years as our UK neighbours do this. How much?? It is doubtful that we would get away with 77 Euros.So realistically in rippoff Ireland prices without being ripped off totally what is a generally accepted price for OMOL we could get a consensus amongst ourselves and the organisations?I see it being appx 200 Euros for 5 years. 40 Euros PA?Not too bad.

I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible. That way, you are likely to get a better hearing especially if your request makes sense and no real arguments can be put up against it.

My feeling is we're half way there, they accepted our request for a longer licence period (we originally asked for five) so they compromised and gave us three and dropped OMOL. Now what we should say is "OK the finance act has gone through and we can't change that until the next budget, but the new CJB could add OMOL, and we'd be happy if you did that"

That way, they save face on the licence fee for the moment and we get OMOL, later we can push for a reduction in the fees depending on who is in power at the next budget. Right now, though we want something concrete that can be delivered within a short timeframe and that's OMOL.

In short, they get the licence fee increase, the three years and we get OMOL with a push later down the line for a lower fee. (we still have over a year to get that).

Easy to focus on, simple message and deliverable in the timeframe.

Clare gunner

My feeling is we're half way there, they accepted our request for a longer licence period (we originally asked for five) so they compromised and gave us three and dropped OMOL. Now what we should say is "OK the finance act has gone through and we can't change that until the next budget, but the new CJB could add OMOL, and we'd be happy if you did that"

But the trouble is ; Correct me if I am wrong..now both CJB and the Finance Bill is now law.

That way, they save face on the licence fee for the moment and we get OMOL, later we can push for a reduction in the fees depending on who is in power at the next budget. Right now, though we want something concrete that can be delivered within a short timeframe and that's OMOL.

I see where you are coming from but the two probs as I see them are;
The DOJ is enacted,and unless they will convene emergency time to ammend this part of the act.I cant see it happening.I mean if Mc Dowells former colleuges in the legal trade are fighting a desperate holding action to stall the CJB clauses on right to silence etc till after the election,what chance have we of being heard to demand an amend that part of the FA 07 or CJB??

In short, they get the licence fee increase, the three years and we get OMOL with a push later down the line for a lower fee. (we still have over a year to get that).

Easy to focus on, simple message and deliverable in the timeframe.[/

QUOTE]
It is but how much could OMOL cost for three years??They could hit us with the same price and we have OMOL,but are still as broke....So all I am saying is...what sort of a figure do we have in mind for the 3 or 5 year OMOL.
E100,150,200,etc??
We must have a figure to start with to negoiate.

rrpc

By the way, there may be all kinds of spurious arguments put up against OMOL like the TV licence argument: "Every TV has to have a licence". But of course we all know that the TV licence goes to RTE, the firearms licence money does not go back into shooting sports, end of argument. And the others: Dog licences = Dog wardens etc.

Or the pulse system can't produce a licence with multiple firearms: Fine, keep printing out the multiple pieces of paper but just charge one fee.

OMOL also requires very little change to the firearms acts. In fact you could read section 3 of the 1925 act as allowing for OMOL, as it doesn't specifically state the quantity of firearms that can be on a certificate.

"to have in his possession, use, and carry the particular firearm described in the certificate,"

You might just have to add "or firearms"

This is what I mean about it being a simple message, with an easy to understand logic.

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

But the trouble is ; Correct me if I am wrong..now both CJB and the Finance Bill is now law.

New CJB going through right now. And not all of the firearms stuff from the last CJB has been signed in yet, so plenty of room for change there yet. In fact, I think OMOL could be introduced as a statutory instrument, as the firearms certificate is described in the act as being on the "prescribed form" an SI could change the prescribed form to have more than one firearm.

It is but how much could OMOL cost for three years??They could hit us with the same price and we have OMOL,but are still as broke....So all I am saying is...what sort of a figure do we have in mind for the 3 or 5 year OMOL.
E100,150,200,etc??
We must have a figure to start with to negoiate.

Right now, the amounts are as per the Finance Act. That's why I'm saying forget about the money for the moment, use it as a lever, so that when they are about to throw up their hands and say, "sorry, it's already law" we trot out OMOL and say do that now!

This bit added later; wasn't sure where CG was coming from when I first replied
Sorry, I can't see how having OMOL under the current system could still have us just as broke! At 170 for one firearm it's working out at €56'ish a year which is a little steep, but once you have two firearms the price drops to €28 a pop per year and if you have three, then it's down to just under 19 quid a year per firearm.

So for anyone with two or more firearms, OMOL coupled with the current "increases" represents a 26% decrease per firearm per year at least

cantona

Sent Thur to all TDs, resent to delivery failures and another e-mailsent Friday.
So far,

"Shorter texts would be easier read but I hope to have time tomorrow to work out what the issue is and take it from there."

Cecila Keaveney( this to a 3 paragraph e-mail less than 100 words)



AND



Reference No. C2113





email address:





13 April 2007




Dear B


Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding the increased cost of
licencing firearms.

I am happy to personally make representations on your behalf to Mr.
Michael McDowell T.D., Tánaiste & Minister for Justice Equality and Law
Reform and I will closely monitor developments.

I will contact you again as soon as I have further news.






With every good wish


Yours sincerely



(Embedded image moved to file: pic09961.pcx) ________________ Seán Power T.D.

Minister of State

ArthurJ

Just finished mailing the lot. Got commitments from eight others to do the same. No there not shooters, but they are voters and are concerned that any licence fee could increase by 50%. The way I put it was “gun today, car tomorrow”.

Clare gunner

,

"Shorter texts would be easier read but I hope to have time tomorrow to work out what the issue is and take it from there."

Cecila Keaveney( this to a 3 paragraph e-mail less than 100 words

Oh Boy!!!God help Ireland if somone of her IQ gets into power!!!Imagine her negoiating somthing really complex,like a trade agreement!!:rolleyes: Is she blonde BTW???:D [Sorry couldnt resist it:D ]

See the point now of having to keep it simple and often???
Politican =thick[in 90% cases .Other 10% dangerous sods as they pretend to be thick,but arent]
Ergo,for 90% Keep It Simple Stupid and often. The other 10% will use this to their advantage somhow.

Like it Authur J Gun today,Car tomrrow. Short& Sweet.:)

Clare gunner

[

This bit added later; wasn't sure where CG was coming from when I first replied
Sorry, I can't see how having OMOL under the current system could still have us just as broke! At 170 for one firearm it's working out at €56'ish a year which is a little steep, but once you have two firearms the price drops to €28 a pop per year and if you have three, then it's down to just under 19 quid a year per firearm.

So for anyone with two or more firearms, OMOL coupled with the current "increases" represents a 26% decrease per firearm per year at least

It makes sense all right rrpc,but has anything that made sense ever been implimented here?We would have to be on gaurd that they dont try some scam like the increase fees is justified now on admin grounds,printing new stationary,buying new biros or somthing like that. I would personally bet that they will try some nonsense on the restricted list[which we still dont know what they will be] making them "!especially dangerous"and therefore require special iscensing from the Commisioner and the appropiate fee[TAX] of whatever exempting it from OMOL.Or somthing on that line of thought.....
Dont trust them!!!We have no reason to since 1972,and it is no different in shooting matters in 2007.
On point again,at least the OMOL is somthing that we can demand as a requirement if asked.Any other ideas out there???

newby.204

I think if we are approached, we should say its a grassroots effort , dont send them to a single shooting body, there is too much agro between one or more of the bodies and frankly they will only push there own interests rather than the interests of the general community.

OMOL is a great idea but i think overhauling the whole pulse system is a long way off, as much as id love it to happen, i think even reducing the cost of the licences by a fraction would be a win, i dont think we will get it back down to e.g. rifle €114 for three years i think getting them to the half way point around €142(rifle) and €95(shotgun) would be a major win.

The restricted list is a whole other ball game and one that im never gona touch off with a barge poll, i had an interest building in f-class taregt shooting but im afraid they have one. Too costly not worth the hastle, i think ill stick with vermin and game. By the way is there an actual hard concrete set in stone list of restricted firearms??

Vegeta

newby.204 wrote:

By the way is there an actual hard concrete set in stone list of restricted firearms??

Think there may be a revised one friday the 20th of April 07

newby.204

Vegeta wrote:

Think there may be a revised one friday the 20th of April 07

Fantastic!!!:rolleyes:

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

Think there may be a revised one friday the 20th of April 07

We've been demanding a meeting with the DoJ specifically on this point since february, without any reply so far.

newby.204

So as with everything were chasing are tails on this one!!!

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

On point again,at least the OMOL is somthing that we can demand as a requirement if asked.Any other ideas out there???

We could of course also demand a decrease below the current level on the grounds of decreased admin, which coupled with OMOL according to Sparks could amount to almost a 90% decrease in admin by the Gardaí.

The only problem with getting a decrease, is that any budget in any year could sneak it back up again. At least with OMOL, it would be much harder to remove once it's implemented, and very hard for a government to justify if they tried it.

I'm still p***ed off with Joan Burton's reply that was posted here earlier by the way. It was so stupid that it beggared belief. As a matter of interest, does anyone remember that when the €38 fee came in it was a slight decrease on the previous licence fee of £30 (which works out at €38.09) and the £30 fee had been in place since at least 1995 (that's where my records go back to).

The previous licence fee to the £30 one was £25 (this is for rifles by the way), but I don't remember when the £30 fee was introduced, it certainly is over 12 years old anyway. As far as I can remember the £25 fee was in place in the early eighties when I got my first rifle, so if the £30 fee came in sometime in the early nineties, that would represent a 20% increase in more than 10 years.

My (long winded) point is that nowhere in the past was it ever intended or expected to add inflationery increases to licence fees in general and firearms licences in particular. If that were the case, then certainly the changeover to the euro would have prompted an increase, it having been seven years (mninimum) since the previous increase.

newby.204

rrpc, i think that while your sound logic demonstrates whats needed for this change OMOL, reduced fees etc when has logic ever prevailed in this goverment. id like to think that next year im not goin to be forking out €285 but i think that while we can bring i to the attention of the politicians and express the fact that we are being hard done by, AGAIN, but i think its inevitable, we need somone in government sympathetic to us and frankly i think the hospital/education/road death crisis is goin to play more on peoples minds than the exorbitant fees we once again have to shell out and see no investment in our sport.

I think if we do end up shelling out this money we should argue for some of it back to invest in ALL shooting

rrpc

OK, did a little research, and this is what I've come up with

1983 Firearms Cert for rifle £20
1989 increased to £25
1992 increased to £30

Hasn't increased since then.

As a matter of historical interest, the same cert for rifle and pistol was increased to £1,10s in 1966. That's €1.90 in today's money!

Clare gunner

While the roads,ecnomy ,etc is going to be a big issue with politicans.How many of these groups are doing a grassroots campain???WE are being here an "oral minority"for a change.[The antis have done this for years,but with very dated methods.IE letter writing].
The point is to keep this in their field of view,and moreso as it gets closer to the elections.This is why we increase the mailing even more in election weeks.We will be basically be blocking their comms.
And let them know this!!!
We are P2s3ed off!!! And if they want our vote ,they had better get off asses and sort this out ,or they are going to have a very difficult campain.And a bothersome time in office,as this will become a gureilla war of the comms.Random politican will be surged for a week,if election promises are reneged on.And this tactic will be made public,so EVERYONE can join in the democratic fun of lobbying your elected rep from home,no matter what your gripe is in this world......:D

We dont ask for much,we get fuk all.But this was the line in the sand and they have crossed it!!We want somthing simple and changeable,a 3/5 year liscense, OMOL,at a sensible price.Dooable and simple.We are fed up of being cash cows that are docilely milked every year.Now we are kicking back.

Clare gunner

rrpc wrote:

OK, did a little research, and this is what I've come up with

1983 Firearms Cert for rifle £20
1989 increased to £25
1992 increased to £30

Hasn't increased since then.

As a matter of historical interest, the same cert for rifle and pistol was increased to £1,10s in 1966. That's €1.90 in today's money!

So going by those prices,and Joan Burtons arguement in 15 years inflation has risen by 10% PA,if my rusty maths is correct. 150% in 15 years in which her Govt was in power....Great arguement for reelection there Joan!!!
Somone please check that,as it would be a brilliant retort methinks.:)

ArthurJ

Clare gunner wrote:

,
Like it Authur J Gun today,Car tomrrow. Short& Sweet.:)

CG

We need numbers. Strange as it might seem, all politicians appear to be able to count.
In my own little foray I found scant support for shooters per see, however mention licence fee payers and you get a different reaction.

Everybody is a licence fee payer of some sort and they understand and fear the thin edge principle.

I also believe that, if we shooters lose our focus, we will lose the support of other licence fee payers.

chem

Hi All,

Our lisence issues made front page in the mid louth leader (Free door to door) paper. On the same page was an add for Rergus O`Dowd TD so he should of had a read. Set all local TD`s an email on the issue and rang who I could. Also sent emails to newstalk radio so hope something might come of it.

The piece in the local paper reports that the louth Regional game Council has arranged an information evening in the community hall in Dunleer on Wednesday April 18th at 8pm where Des Crofton will be speaking about these changes in the firearms Legislation.

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

So going by those prices,and Joan Burtons arguement in 15 years inflation has risen by 10% PA,if my rusty maths is correct. 150% in 15 years

Very rusty indeed CG

The increase is 50%, unless you're suggesting that the licence fee 15 years ago was €22 or thereabouts. 150% is double the original amount plus a half.

chem

Was just thinking of a spin we could put on this issue.

With the nurses looking for more pay and less hours for the stress filled job they have, and getting the bothered ear from the government. Why not link it in a way with our problem and say the government it taking more pay from US for less man hours used by the Gardi??

Just a taught

2112

Thank you for your recent e-mail and I am sorry for the delay in coming back to you.

Section 68 of the Finance Act, 2007, which has now become law provided for increases in the rate of excise duty on firearms certificates. The government argument was that the increase provided for on the new three year licence ( from €114 to €170) was roughly in line with the increase in inflation over the same period.

The increase did not feature as an issue at all in the debate on the Finance Bill which ran to some 220 pages
dealing with a wide range of financial and taxation issues and the Labour Party therefore did not oppose this particular Section.

Yours sincerely,


Tony Heffernan

Press and Parliamentary Director
The Labour Party


And this one from D.O Gara of labour


Your message

To: press
Subject: Firearms licence fee
Sent: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:15:52 +0100

was deleted without being read on Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:24:32 +0100

Our man in Havana

And this one from D.O Gara of labour


Your message

To: press
Subject: Firearms licence fee
Sent: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:15:52 +0100

was deleted without being read on Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:24:32 +0100

The Cheek of him. No votes for him so!

Clare gunner

And plenty of MORE ,Emails,Faxes and phone calls telling him EXACTLY that,and that it applies to all canditates who treat this in a cavalier fashion!!:D

Clare gunner

rrpc wrote:

Very rusty indeed CG

The increase is 50%, unless you're suggesting that the licence fee 15 years ago was €22 or thereabouts. 150% is double the original amount plus a half.

Hence the reason I always flunked it in school and leaving .Was and am just crap at it.:D

rrpc

Could somebody do the same kind of excercise that I did with the firearms licences on driving licences, tv licences, passports, dog licences or whatever?

It would be useful to have such data to throw back at anyone who comes up with the same kind of glib reply the labour party came out with.

It would also be useful to put in our emails, faxes etc., to head such replies off at the pass and make them all think a bit first.

Sparks

Won't be able to get to that till Monday rrpc - anyone else able to put it together before then?

Sparks

No coverage in the sunday papers by the way, other than a nasty letter in the Tribune pointed at the NRAI by someone.

BryanL

what has excise duty got tyo do with a licence.
it's a tax on goods,so could be increased on guns and would be collected by customs.
a licence is just that it's not a tax
Bryan