Can anybody help me with learning C# and databases (Co. Cork)??

Frankie78

Hi there,

I have recently started learning programming and I take it very seriously. Could anybody help me with learning C# + .NET, (ASP.NET) and databases, please?? Anybody form County Cork. I live in Youghal and have a car.

Thanks a lot

grahamor

I'd recommend buying a book instead. You could learn alot from doing a sample project from the book (like a shopping cart)

Check out apress, o'reilly and wrox

Frankie78

grahamor wrote:

I'd recommend buying a book instead. You could learn alot from doing a sample project from the book (like a shopping cart)

Check out apress, o'reilly and wrox

Thanks a lot for your answer.

I have bought at least a dozen books already couple of months ago. But learning just from books does not really seem to work well on me.

I did some Pascal (with friend of mine guidance) about 10 years ago and I would dare to say I learned quite quickly (at least he said that). Now with books - frankly I expected much faster progress. And now I feel like not to making any progress and very disoriented. Do not really know which way to go. And moreover it is very demotivating too. :mad:

I thing I would need to see how the whole thing works. Not only on any video learning but with a person guidance. So that I could ask what I want whenever I want and get the whole idea. And he or she could possibly advise me to which way to concentrate more.

To tell the truth - I would like to get a job as a software developer in future (when/if I am good enough). And what would I also like to hear is IF it is even possible to get one since I do not have any University and do not have "at least 2 years of experience" (this is extremely demotivating too).

I would very, very appreciate if I know somebody who could say - Well, I thing if you learn this and this then I thing you have got a very good chance to get any junior position for example in 6 months and if you need to help with something just come a long and I would help you.

So - please - is there anybody like that? :eek:

Zambia

Try

http://www.w3schools.com/sql/default.asp

It has a lot of usefull stuff but Programming has a lot of underlying theory and all that, if you want to progress in the business you will need a degree. I tried to progress without one and failed.

Frankie78

Thanks for answer and link.

Well, I was wondering about a degree too. But then I talked with couple of guys - UCC Computer Science graduates and to tell the truth - I thing one can get himself to the same level as they are in couple of months (maybe even weeks) if he is really motivated and someone is willing to help him.

And even them - they do not have really any certainty they get a job either. Many of them work just as a shop assistants.

So I perfectly understand what you mean but on the other hand I really do not feel like wasting another 4 years with something I could possibly master in couple of months and still be trembling if someone is ever willing to offer me a job.

And moreover - who knows what the things will be like in 4 years time.

Thank you anyway

Zambia

Frankie I started a degree by night at 29 , A wages gun was put to my head and if I didnt do the degree I would have my salary capped.

I did it , and in hindsight it has opened a lot of doors. Its hard work but a must for IT I found.

Plus the downside of IT is you have to go where IT work is and I am guessing Youghal is a little shy of Programming employment.

Tom Dunne

Frankie78 wrote:

So I perfectly understand what you mean but on the other hand I really do not feel like wasting another 4 years with something I could possibly master in couple of months and still be trembling if someone is ever willing to offer me a job.

A little anecdote for you.

When I was a teenager, way back when , I got a computer one Christmas and really took to programming. At 15 years of age, I had my programs published in computer magazines in the UK (the ones where you had type-in listings). So, I thought, I am damn good at this and I want to make a career of it.

To cut a long story short, even though I knew what I was talking about, and could run rings around those with a degree (from a programming perspective), I was severely hampered by the fact that I didn't posess one. In fact, I missed the benefits of the whole dot com boon because I didn't get my arse in gear soon enough.

Most employers worth their salt won't even look at you if you don't have a degree. It's not just the skills you learn, it's states you are at a certain level of competence.

I know from bitter experience.

Frankie78

Yeah you are definitely right. Youghal is not the right place.

And the whole County Cork either. I know that. I perfectly understand that I will have to move if I want to get a chance. And I have absolutely no problem with that. I can move tonight if it is worth that.

And with degree - if it is true - that this bureaucratic procedure is really needed just because of getting a chance then... I should obviously give up my dream.

I must admit that I already tried that. I started in University College Cork - Computer Science course in October 2006. But I run out of money very quickly. I had to quit for financial reasons after two months. I have to pay a rent and have a 7 year old son. And I simply can not afford that. I did not even recover my financial situation since that.

It is all with in a very high contrast with what IT companies in Ireland are constantly complaining about - that there is big lack of IT people in Ireland. In fact, they should frankly admit that all they lack are an experienced professionals form the East!! That is ALL they care!! That do not care about giving a chance to anybody else (except perhaps some graduates)!

Maybe the best way how to get a software development job here in Ireland is to go to East - make a two years of experience and then you would be torn apart here!

I am from Czechia. Right? When I go there I regularly see a job advertisements - for example - we are looking for a Java programmer - no experience necessary - we will teach you everything you will need to know.
I know many people who started like that (they still live in Czechia).

And I do not think that Czech programmers would be any worse then Irish/UK at all! They are just much worse paid!

That would be apparently the best chance for me. To return to Czechia for two years and make some experience there.

But how about if I do not want to return? I can not return? If I want to stay in Ireland? I just can not simply comprehend why is so tough to get a job here, when in other countries it is so simple! :mad:

Frankie78

tom dunne wrote:

A little anecdote for you.

When I was a teenager, way back when , I got a computer one Christmas and really took to programming. At 15 years of age, I had my programs published in computer magazines in the UK (the ones where you had type-in listings). So, I thought, I am damn good at this and I want to make a career of it.

To cut a long story short, even though I knew what I was talking about, and could run rings around those with a degree (from a programming perspective), I was severely hampered by the fact that I didn't posess one. In fact, I missed the benefits of the whole dot com boon because I didn't get my arse in gear soon enough.

Most employers worth their salt won't even look at you if you don't have a degree. It's not just the skills you learn, it's states you are at a certain level of competence.

I know from bitter experience.

That was relly a beautifull anecdote

Why a f*ck someone is supposed to waste a 4 years of his life to learn something he can manage in couple of months/weeks/days? Why simply can not show that "certain level of competence" straight at work? :mad:

I would be willing to work even for free without any contract just to show if I am worth it or not (competent enough)! And I am sure many other people would be willing to do the same too.

4 years is a extremely long period! Not only in humans life, but also in IT world! After all the things one is learning first year at University are mostly already not true for are long time when he gets to the fourth year!! So, what is the sense of that? Except feeding an University personnel for 4 years?!!?

Uhh, I'll probably sell my computer and start gardening instead!! :mad: :mad:

Tom Dunne

Frankie78 wrote:

4 years is a extremely long period! Not only in humans life, but also in IT world! After all the things one is learning first year at University are mostly already not true for are long time when he gets to the fourth year!! So, what is the sense of that? Except feeding an University personnel for 4 years?!!?

Not true, for so many reasons.

Firstly, I should declare a vested interest - I teach computers at a third level college, evening classes.

Now with that out of the way, you don't have to do four years straight. If you look at any of the Insitutes of Technology, you can do a 2 year diploma. That will get you started. Then, if situations are favourable, you can go on, if not, you still have some qualification under your belt.

As for material being out of date - not true. What you learn in the first year or two are the fundamental bulding blocks, they are not going to change in the next 10-15 years, fact. So don't worry about that.

Frankie78 wrote:

Uhh, I'll probably sell my computer and start gardening instead!! :mad: :mad:

Don't! I find computers a very rewarding career. I do actually enjoy my day job (Database/web programming, though not very good at either!), as I am sure do most people on this forum.

It does take time, and it may appear frustrating when starting off, but persevere and it will be worth it.

Frankie78

Dear Tom,

thank you for your reply. I feel I should more specify what I meant.

I am sure that for many, many people is degree in Computer Science extremely good option. And it can be very valuable too.

I should have specify that more earlier. I did not. Sorry for that.

My point is that it seems to me a totally insane to require a degree in all cases.

Like you said: "Most employers worth their salt won't even look at you if you don't have a degree." THAT is what I meant.

I dare to say and I'd say you would agree, that there is many, many people who simply have a talent, are interested in computers for a long time and have no problem to learn a new technologies very fast (I am not saying it is me, but maybe yes).

Why should they waste even two years just because of somebody is too lazy even to ask them about their skills?

Someone can be a computer genius but is condemned to work as a unskilled general operator for the rest of his life just because he - for some reason can not afford to go to school?

I am certainly not saying I am a computer genius, but computers are my lifelong love for a longer time than 15 years already. I was always considered as someone who always know answer, when is asked anything about computers (software - not hardware) by other people.

And it also was very disappointing (and demotivating) when I started a Computer Science course last year to see other people around. They mostly did not have even a CLUE what is Computer Science about! They were there often just because someone told them that they can earn a very good money if they finish the course. What I found very sad.

I think you could understand what I mean.

Therefore what I am trying hard to say is, that people whose responsibility is to hire software developers (and not only them) should not only glance at CV if someone have a degree or not and then throw it straight to the bin if he doesn't, but also they should also bother themselves to care what is he able to do, about his skills and talent.

No wonder then that there is lack of software developers and IT specialists.

Mutant_Fruit

Well, there is one thing which (if used correctly) can be worth a lot more than a piece of paper which a college gave you after you copied/pasted your way through 4 years of college CS lectures.

A portfolio.

If you really are interested in this, what you need to do is to create a portfolio of work which you can send in with your CV as way to show them just how good you are. The easiest way to do this would be to get yourself involved in some open source projects and learn how to program. Once you can get your mind around the whole thing, then you could start learning how to program "properly" (if ya know what i mean).

What i'd recommend is that you find an open source project you're interested in and start contributing. Forget about the whole internet and database thing for a second, just get used to C# and all the features it offers you.

Once you're confortable with generics (and possibly reflection ) you can start working on database's. A good "database" to start off with would be "SQLLite". It's free, fast and if you can use it, you can use pretty much any database package out there.

Then tie in the ASP.NET stuff. Dont run before you can walk, if you try jumping in the deep end and learning all three things at once, you may struggle. I'm not sure how much existing knowledge you have, so if you are an old hat at C or C++ (or whatever), you can probably ignore some of what i said

EDIT: Also, most employeers worth their salt would *never* hire someone just because they had a piece of paper with their name on it. A "real" company would look for proof that you can code. Any monkey can type into a text editor and copy/paste crap from the web. Not everyone can design good/elegant solutions for new problems. If you can show them you can do this, then they won't care about a piece of paper.

Frankie78

Mutant_Fruit wrote:

Well, there is one thing which (if used correctly) can be worth a lot more than a piece of paper which a college gave you after you copied/pasted your way through 4 years of college CS lectures.

A portfolio.

If you really are interested in this, what you need to do is to create a portfolio of work which you can send in with your CV as way to show them just how good you are. The easiest way to do this would be to get yourself involved in some open source projects and learn how to program. Once you can get your mind around the whole thing, then you could start learning how to program "properly" (if ya know what i mean).

Fantastic idea!!! Thanks a lot!! I WILL do exactly this! I just hope it will work!
(and I would appreciate if someone could help me too ).

Mutant_Fruit wrote:

What i'd recommend is that you find an open source project you're interested in and start contributing.

Well, I'll try to google something. But I am afraid there will not be many open source projects in C# + .NET, except those Mono things.

Mutant_Fruit wrote:

Dont run before you can walk, if you try jumping in the deep end and learning all three things at once, you may struggle.

Yeah, this was exactly my case. I did try to learn all three things at once and now I am struggling a lot. Especially with the lack of motivation.

Mutant_Fruit wrote:

If you can show them you can do this, then they won't care about a piece of paper.

I hope you're right. But so far - nobody even answered and asked me what I can do (I tried to send some applications as hocus pocus experiment ).

Again - thanks a lot!!

Mutant_Fruit

Frankie78 wrote:

Well, I'll try to google something. But I am afraid there will not be many open source projects in C# + .NET, except those Mono things.

I'm one of "those mono" people Trust me, there are plenty of non-mono c# projects around! Besides, mono is C# .NET. If it works on mono, it works on MS.NET. My first open source experience was writing an auto-update module for MeGUI (google it). Last time i checked, it was still about 90% my own code, which i'm very surprised about.

To be honest, start off with easy stuff. A nice easy (ish) way to get into programming would be to write a GUI that scans a directory you specify and lists all the files (e.g. all the mp3 files) it has. Then use the GUI to create a playlist for any songs that the user selects.

That should get you into gui programming easily enough.

Just so you know, i started off a c# based bittorrent library about 8 months ago. Based on what i know now, i would've done it *completely* differently, but there's no way i'm starting from scratch again The only way to learn coding is to start coding. Just don't confuse yourself by trying too much too soon.