Ed Joyce...

bobbysands81

found his comments weird on why he wanted to play for England.

He said that it's every cricket players dream to play in the Ashes. That could hardly be true, it might be every English, Welsh or Australian kids dream but hardly logical that an Irishman would want to play in a "tournament" that only has 2 countries playing in it.

Odd.

Guy:Incognito

Whats the deal with switching nationality in cricket? Is it like football, where you have to have some connection with the country (parent, grandparent etc) or can you pretty much play for who you like and it's just like clubs?


I think it's a bit crap that you can play for your country right up to the world cup then switch and play for your rivals.

copacetic

Stekelly wrote:

Whats the deal with switching nationality in cricket? Is it like football, where you have to have some connection with the country (parent, grandparent etc) or can you pretty much play for who you like and it's just like clubs?

you can become 'naturalised' after being in a country a certain amount of time, this is how o'brien will qualify for england later in the year and also how a lot of the Irish team qualify for Ireland.

As to whether all cricket players dream of playing in the ashes, I wouldn't be surprised if they did...

DMC

bobbysands81 wrote:

He said that it's every cricket players dream to play in the Ashes. That could hardly be true, it might be every English, Welsh or Australian kids dream but hardly logical that an Irishman would want to play in a "tournament" that only has 2 countries playing in it.

He wants to test himself at the highest level, and to him, test cricket against Australia is the greatest test of all.

Maybe nationalism and nationality isn't so much a issue to him. He might be playing for the English cricket team, but I'm sure he still has an Irish passport. I'm sure Kevin Pietersen still has a South African passport too.

mike65

The Ashes is where its at. Apart from Pakistan v India of course!

Mike.

bobbysands81

mike65 wrote:

The Ashes is where its at. Apart from Pakistan v India of course!

Mike.

If you're English or Australian then it probably is.

It's not as if it's the 2 best teams in the world either!

Royale with Cheese

He wanted to play test cricket (and what cricketer doesn't?). Simple as.

bobbysands81

Royale with Cheese wrote:

He wanted to play test cricket (and what cricketer doesn't?). Simple as.

Seems like a bit of hypocrisy here. Some folks bemoaning the fact that Ireland aren't a test cricket side but then think it's fine that a batsman of the calibre of Joyce refuses to play for his country anymore.

I'd imagine George Best would have loved to play for Brazil but he couldn't and rightly so. Ed Joyce should not be allowed to play for any other country just because he takes the huff cos he feels Ireland aren't good enough. How is that going to benefit Irish cricket or help raise the profile of the game or put it in a position that someday Ireland could play test cricket?

The custodians of cricket are letting the fans down by allowing rules like this to happen. Rules should be in favour of helping the weaker teams to become stronger not allowing the stronger teams to cherry pick the best players from weaker teams.

Ed Joyce too is letting Irish cricket down by choosing this course of action. Saying that it's okay because he wants to play test cricket is pitiful.

legspin

bobbysands81 wrote:

Seems like a bit of hypocrisy here. Some folks bemoaning the fact that Ireland aren't a test cricket side but then think it's fine that a batsman of the calibre of Joyce refuses to play for his country anymore.

I'd imagine George Best would have loved to play for Brazil but he couldn't and rightly so. Ed Joyce should not be allowed to play for any other country just because he takes the huff cos he feels Ireland aren't good enough. How is that going to benefit Irish cricket or help raise the profile of the game or put it in a position that someday Ireland could play test cricket?

The custodians of cricket are letting the fans down by allowing rules like this to happen. Rules should be in favour of helping the weaker teams to become stronger not allowing the stronger teams to cherry pick the best players from weaker teams.

Ed Joyce too is letting Irish cricket down by choosing this course of action. Saying that it's okay because he wants to play test cricket is pitiful.

This is going to get personal so if a mod wants to ban me go right ahead.

Shut the **** up, you ignorant gimp.
It is quite obvious from your handle you are just another mealy-mouthed apologist for the bigots and nay-sayers that some of us have had to deal from time immemorial.
George Best played international football for his country at the highest level and got payed for it. So the rest of the team was ****e, so what?. It was still the highest level and that is what all good sports men should aspire to. If Norn Iron had only played in the fourth division of the football league what then? By your reasoning (and I use the word advisedly)he should have hidden his talent under a bucket.
When Ireland are a test playing nation then come and talk to us here about what country he should play for.
When Ed or possibly Niall O'Brien in the future or any other Irish player good enough wants to play at the highest level then shall I say to him 'good luck' and hope he does well. And I shall also hope that your ignorance has been removed from the gene pool so the rest of us don't have to listen to this sort of **** again
One final point
The reasons for Ireland not being a test nation are down to the likes of your name-sake and his predescessors and successors being allowed to do what they did. Up to the introduction of the GAA and the Gaelic League, Cricket was the most popular game in the country. Since then of course the bigots have had their way and the game has become the minority that it has.

Thank you ****wit:mad:

copacetic

that's totally out of order, you are just as bad as bobby above, if not worse..

reported.

RuggieBear

legspin banned personal abuse.

JacksonHeightsOwn

i understand whole heartedly why joyce wants to play test cricket, i think i described it as its likle ronaldhino being forced to play 5 a side football all his life

anyway, on the other hand, and i think its fair to say that everyone on this forum has at least thought of this once over the past month, that what if, just what if, he was still playing for us

i mean, we`be a decent squad, ok, no world beaters, but how far are we off test nation staus, what exactly do we need to do, to achieve full test nation status,

in fairness, we will never acheive this with our best plyers jumping ship

mike65

True but the best players need a level of competition that can match thier ambition and talent. Thats why top footie players sign for the EP or SPL rather than stay with Eircom League sides.

Mike.

kensutz

Good luck to him I say, if I had a choice of playing for England or Ireland I'd pick England.

cgf

RuggieBear wrote:

legspin banned personal abuse.

Ruggie you might as well throw lack of knowledge of the game at him as well if he thinks Niall O'Brien is going to play test cricket.

Fair play to Joyce, if I had the same choice to make, there would be no contest. It is a great filip for the game here to have a guy that worked his way up thru junior cricket into senior and onto the topmost grade at which he can aspire to.

I wonder what is bobbysands1981 opinion on the GAA players heading to Aussie Rules - they are simply chasing the filthy, which I don't begrudge them, where as Ed is looking to play his sport at the top grade which is what every sportsperson, be they amature or professional, should aspire to.

WellyJ

cgf wrote:

I wonder what is bobbysands1981 opinion on the GAA players heading to Aussie Rules - they are simply chasing the filthy, which I don't begrudge them, where as Ed is looking to play his sport at the top grade which is what every sportsperson, be they amature or professional, should aspire to.

I have to wonder what about Ed's decision makes it so clear he is only doing it "to play at the top grade"

To be honest I have a very strong suspicion that he wants some more "filthy" too.

Anyway, this argument is pretty silly now that he has lost his place in the team.

Strauss should have been in from the start in my opinion and i dont see him getting back in any time soon,

In either form of the game,

He will need to get back that county form that got him there in the first place,

Best of luck to him though, we wouldnt even be at the WC if it had not been for him,

Welly

smackbunnybaby

i dont really care who Joyce and co want to play for.
I just care that there are rules that allow them represent Ireland in qualifiers and England in the World Cup.
it's a disgrace!

players should at least be made make a decision early in there career about who they want to play for.

this would also mean that the cricket federation would have to look into turning other countries professional.
i dont know much about why there are only 8 or so Test Nations, but it doesnt help grow the sport in other countries.

WellyJ

smackbunnybaby wrote:

i dont really care who Joyce and co want to play for.
I just care that there are rules that allow them represent Ireland in qualifiers and England in the World Cup.
it's a disgrace!

players should at least be made make a decision early in there career about who they want to play for.

this would also mean that the cricket federation would have to look into turning other countries professional.
i dont know much about why there are only 8 or so Test Nations, but it doesnt help grow the sport in other countries.

This is the problem with this argument,

People are jumping on the WC bandwagon and actually have no idea what it would require for Ireland to ever gain Test status,

And it would take a hell of a lot more than a couple of Ed Joyce's staying here rather than declaring for England,

We simply don't have the funding or the facilities,

Or the talent,

Our best players arent even Irish,

So should they be kicked out of here?

cgf

An interesting article in the Scotsman on the subject

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/othersport.cfm?id=492912007

and anotehr one from cricinfo

http://content-www.cricinfo.com/ireland/content/story/282163.html?wrappertype=print

and with regard to chasing the "filthy"....

http://www.thepca.co.uk/minimum_wages.html

Not much more that minimum wage here for the first few years and £30k avg in Middlesex isn't the biggest carrot in the world.

mike65

I'll sign for Durham! They're the youngest and smallest county side so the wages are a surprise to me, I guess as they've been relegated the wages will be rather more modest.

Mike.

thebaz

i have no problem if they whole Irish squad played county cricket in England, in fact i'd love it. But if your Irish, your Irish , same as Pieterson playing for England, he should be playing for South Africa . Maybe Freddie the yachtsman and Monty should declare for Australia , as they would have better chances of winning tests and world cups. I know some of the Irish team are foreign born, but if our best players are continualy picked up by England , the game will always remain a minority sport here, and not fulfill its potential. I know Ireland are a long way away from test status, maybe let the Irish players play test cricket for England , but play one day and 20/20 for Ireland . Can you imagine if o'driscoll declared for new zealand as he would have a better chance of winning honours.

dulpit

While I don't know a whole lot regarding Cricket, and I'm probably going to echo other people here's my two-pence worth:

If you compare the situation to that of soccer for example: players in Ireland regularly move to England or elsewhere to play at top-level leagues (which, sadly, the Eircom league is not...) However these players still play for their country...

With the cricket, I have no problem with the entire Irish team moving en masse to England and joining whichever county team they wish... But they should still play for their country... I think that a "grandparents rule" should be in position, and players who have played for 1 country should not be allowed to jump ship to another... As a previous poster mentioned, some soccer players choose to play for their country, even though they might be a brilliant player and their country is rubbish... Look at Ryan Giggs, he could have played for England but had a bit of loyalty, and chose Wales...

I think thats what is needed from the players - earn your money in England by all means but show a bit of loyalty to your country...

leeroybrown

dulpit wrote:

I think thats what is needed from the players - earn your money in England by all means but show a bit of loyalty to your country...

There's actually a very awkward layer of extra complexity here due to us competing in English county cricket. The Irish team will play in the Friends Provident Trophy where for example we will face Ed Joyce's Middlesex at least once in the 2007 season.

ruck-it

thebaz wrote:

Can you imagine if o'driscoll declared for new zealand as he would have a better chance of winning honours.

He could if he wanted. I think Irish people should note how we've used residency to our advantage in rugby a number of times. Most rugby nations do it. Just look at New Zealand.

rockbeer

The situations in soccer and cricket can't really be compared because, as others have said, in soccer every national team gets the chance to compete at the highest level. Ireland have the same opportunity as Brazil to win the world cup, so players have an interest in strengthening their own national teams rather than defecting.

In cricket, the number of test playing countries has historically been limited in order to preserve the standard of the highest level of the game. Countries have had to demonstrate the ability to be competetive before being given test status. Test achievements and records have value and meaning in the game because they have been achieved against the best opposition. Quite rightly there is concern that this standard would be diluted if people could rack up runs and wickets against weak opposition - as has been the case in recent times with the granting of test status to Bangladesh and the weakening of the Zimbabwe side. When Jason Gillespie can score a test double-ton, the value of the achievements of previous generations is eroded.
This hierarchy within cricket means that players such as Joyce have to move country to compete at the highest level. As in athletics, there are residency qualifications in place to control this kind of thing - players can't just swap countries as they please. The Pietersen situation is slightly different because he declined to play for South Africa for political reasons. Or maybe he didn't think he was good enough to get in the team. Either way he opted to pass up the chance to play test cricket for his own country in oredr to play for England which is a much more difficult decision to respect than Joyce's.

This historical policy might have to be reconsidered given the increasing popularity of the game and the number of countries becoming more competetive. It was never an issue before because there were few real aspirants to test status. Maybe it's time for a formal division structure, with a top division of test sides and a second tier where matches are given first class but not test status. If over time a team comes to dominate the second tier, it would be appropriate to consider it for full test status.

Royale with Cheese

dulpit wrote:

I think thats what is needed from the players - earn your money in England by all means but show a bit of loyalty to your country...

Ok there's been a few people posting in this thread who just seem to have caught a bit of the world cup and have decided they know what they're talking about.

You can NEVER compare cricket to football, when talking about money and contracts. Club level football is the highest level of the game, aside from maybe the world cup every 4 years. In cricket, the international game is all there is really. Club level doesn't compare in the slightest. The best players in England, play for England and are contracted centrally to the English cricket team, not their club teams. They rarely ever play for their club teams. Club cricket just isn't a priority. For international players it's really only seen as practice, in order to keep themselves match sharp.

If you think Irish cricket is going anywhere then you're mistaken. It has had a bit of exposure because of the world cup but after that you won't hear of the Irish cricket team again for a long time. They haven't even qualified for the 20-20 world cup. They don't have test cricket status (the highest level of the game), and most likely never will. Although Ireland has ODI status they will never host or go on proper tours, probably being limited to one game against whoever is touring England at the time... while continuing to play against teams in the second tier of the game. It just doesn't compare to a proper cricket playing nation, like England.

If you think I'm being defeatist and that cricket in Ireland will never change with attitudes like mine, well I'm sorry but cricket in Ireland will just never change, period. The team did brilliantly in getting a tie with Zimbabwe and brilliantly again in getting a freak win against Pakistan. Since then they've shown they're a long way behind the rest of the cricket playing world. If they hadn't managed to beat Pakistan, or tie with Zimbabwe then we wouldn't be having this discussion. The sport isn't a priority in this country, people won't be interested in it once Ireland have been knocked out of the world cup.

Joyce had to play for England if he wanted to make a serious career out of cricket for himself. Like said before, it'd be like Ronaldinho playing 5 aside football all his life. I'm not fond on the naturalized citizen rule in sport (rugby players from New Zealand and Australia playing for Wales under Graham Henry) but in this particular situation it's the only option for players like Joyce who want to rise to the top of their game. Kevin Pietersen should be playing for South Africa imo, there's no reason he shouldn't be. But Irish players will never have the oppurtunity to play at the top tier of world cricket if they aren't allowed to declare for England. Plus if you get rid of the naturalized citizen rule Ireland would gain back Joyce, but lose Botha, Langford-Smith, Johnston.

To be honest I have to echo the sentiments of legspin and think this thread was just started as an excuse for an anti English tirade.

I quite like thebaz's suggestion of letting Irish players declare for England in test cricket but letting them keep playing for Ireland in ODIs and 20-20 games. I can never see it happening but it'd be the perfect solution to the problem as far as I'm concerned.

Guy:Incognito

legspin wrote:

George Best played international football for his country at the highest level and got payed for it. So the rest of the team was ****e, so what?. It was still the highest level and that is what all good sports men should aspire to.

He didnt as it happens. Because he played for a poor country he never got to play in a major tournament. Whereas ed Joyce would have played in the world cup had he stayed with Ireland


As for the rest of your post. :rolleyes:


club sports are about playing with the best team you can and earning your money. international sport is about representing your country and doing your best to help it improve/win things.

cgf wrote:

I wonder what is bobbysands1981 opinion on the GAA players heading to Aussie Rules - they are simply chasing the filthy,
.

Thats different though, it's more akin to footballers going to play in England rather than stil in the eircom league. They still play for Ireland at international level.

Royale with Cheese

Stekelly wrote:

He didnt as it happens. Because he played for a poor country he never got to play in a major tournament. Whereas ed Joyce would have played in the world cup had he stayed with Ireland

He won the European Cup didn't he? Is that not a major competition?

Stekelly wrote:

club sports are about playing with the best team you can and earning your money. international sport is about representing your country and doing your best to help it improve/win things

Forget club and international cricket. There is only international cricket. You just cannot compare football and cricket in this situation. In fact I don't think you can compare any sport with cricket in this situation. Are there any other major sports where there are only 8-9 teams recognised as being of the highest level, and all being international teams?

Stekelly wrote:

Thats different though, it's more akin to footballers going to play in England rather than still in the eircom league. They still play for Ireland at international level.

Once again forget the club/country, football/cricket comparisons (I know you didn't bring it up but I'm just trying to stress there's just no way you can use them as comparisons)

Guy:Incognito

Royale with Cheese wrote:

He won the European Cup didn't he? Is that not a major competition?)

With northern Ireland? We were talking about players jumping ship at international level.

Royale with Cheese wrote:

Once again forget the club/country, football/cricket comparisons (I know you didn't bring it up but I'm just trying to stress there's just no way you can use them as comparisons)

I was comparing Gaa to football there.

Royale with Cheese wrote:

Forget club and international cricket. There is only international cricket. You just cannot compare football and cricket in this situation. In fact I don't think you can compare any sport with cricket in this situation. Are there any other major sports where there are only 8-9 teams recognised as being of the highest level, and all being international teams?

TBH, in that case I would argue that there is no such thing as international cricket, just club cricket with country names. seeing as the country being represented means very little as the peole playing for the country can be from anywhere.

Say the same rules applied to football and the Irish government decided to bankroll the national team, buying up the best 23 players in the world to make the best team, would that basically not be a club team (say chelsea for instance) masquerading (sp?) as a national team, because lets face it, there wouldnt be any Irish players in it.

Royale with Cheese

Stekelly wrote:

With northern Ireland? We were talking baout players jumping shiop at international level.

Did you read any of my post about club/international cricket?

Guy:Incognito

Royale with Cheese wrote:

Did you read any of my post about club/international cricket?

Yes but the George best thing was an example I was quoting someone else on, regarding football not cricket. Tbh I mean to put OT before it because I was correcting the fact that he said that GB played international football at the highest level when he didnt. Anyone can play in the qualifiers for a tournament, playing at the highest level means playing in a world cup or european championship finals tournament.

Royale with Cheese

Stekelly wrote:

TBH, in that case I would argue that there is no such thing as international cricket, just club cricket with country names. seeing as the country being represented means very little as the peole playing for the country can be from anywhere.

Say the same rules applied to football and the Irish government decided to bankroll the national team, buying up the best 23 players in the world to make the best team, would that basically not be a club team (say chelsea for instance) masquerading (sp?) as a national team, because lets face it, there wouldnt be any Irish players in it.

For the last time, forget football.

Generally the only teams in the world that produce test cricket class players are those countries who play test cricket. In order to qualify for England, Irish players must live there for 4-5 years I think (not too sure exactly how long). You don't get players jumping ship from one country to the next because they generally don't need to. The only other case of this happening is South Africa's Kevin Pietersen playing for England, which as I've already stated I don't agree with. I think for him that was partially a political decision as well, to do with racial quota systems affecting teams in South Africa. South Africa's Tony Greig also qualified for and subsequently captained England during South Africa's ban from the sport during the apartheid era.

A more fair rule on playing for a country outside of your nationality in cricket imo would be to only allow somebody to play for a country other than their nationality as long as their nationality isn't from a country which plays test cricket. i.e. Irish players would be free to represent other countries after qualifying after having lived in their chosen country for long enough. Australians, Kiwis, the English, West Indians, Indians, Sri Lankans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and South Africans would be stuck with the country of their nationality.

To be fair this really isn't much of an issue outside of Irish players leaving to play for England. Only Joyce was good enough for that and he's probably going to have to prove himself at club level again before he's given another chance to play for England. I'm sure that bankrolled superteam situation made sense in your head but it's never going to happen and is a pointless argument.

Chucky the tree

Do people not realise that theres a lot of foriegners on the irish team?

Guy:Incognito

EDIT, disregard first reply, I was reading the wrong thing.

Royale with Cheese wrote:

For the last time, forget football.

Generally the only teams in the world that produce test cricket class players are those countries who play test cricket. In order to qualify for England, Irish players must live there for 4-5 years I think (not too sure exactly how long). You don't get players jumping ship from one country to the next because they generally don't need to. The only other case of this happening is South Africa's Kevin Pietersen playing for England, which as I've already stated I don't agree with. I think for him that was partially a political decision as well, to do with racial quota systems affecting teams in South Africa. South Africa's Tony Greig also qualified for and subsequently captained England during South Africa's ban from the sport during the apartheid era.

A more fair rule on playing for a country outside of your nationality in cricket imo would be to only allow somebody to play for a country other than their nationality as long as their nationality isn't from a country which plays test cricket. i.e. Irish players would be free to represent other countries after qualifying after having lived in their chosen country for long enough. Australians, Kiwis, the English, West Indians, Indians, Sri Lankans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and South Africans would be stuck with the country of their nationality.

To be fair this really isn't much of an issue outside of Irish players leaving to play for England. Only Joyce was good enough for that and he's probably going to have to prove himself at club level again before he's given another chance to play for England. I'm sure that bankrolled superteam situation made sense in your head but it's never going to happen and is a pointless argument.

I think it was fair to compare in that instance. Even taking out the football parts, it's not inconcievable for Ireland to end up entirely with a team of B grade Australians (or any other nations). What makes that an Ireland team exactly (in anything other than name?)



Sure we should have given shane Warne a summer house here 5 years ago and a fe wmillion to turn out for us a the world cup when he finished with Australia.

Just to throw in another football comparsion ( cos I knwo you like them so much ) why dont we just become a cricket equivelant (sp?) to Bolton? A retirement home for top class players. We couldget one year out of the vbest players just before the jack in altogether.

Chucky the tree wrote:

Do people not realise that theres a lot of foriegners on the irish team?

It has been mentioned in this very thread in fact.

thebaz

Chucky the tree wrote:

Do people not realise that theres a lot of foriegners on the irish team?

yeah -- but there non professional , who wouldn't get a sniff of there national team -- i take it Chucky your not Irish ?

Royale with Cheese

Stekelly wrote:

I think it was fair to compare in that instance. Even taking out the football parts, it's not inconcievable for Ireland to end up entirely with a team of B grade Australians (or any other nations). What makes that an Ireland team exactly (in anything other than name?)

In theory it's possible if some b-grade Australian/West Indian/etc. players think it'd be worth living in Ireland for 5 years just so they can play in the second tier of world cricket. It's not going to happen. They wouldn't even get paid for it. There's just no incentive.

Stekelly wrote:

Just to throw in another football comparsion ( cos I knwo you like them so much ) why dont we just become a cricket equivelant (sp?) to Bolton? A retirement home for top class players. We couldget one year out of the vbest players just before the jack in altogether.

Here's something you might like.

rockbeer

Stekelly wrote:

TBH, in that case I would argue that there is no such thing as international cricket, just club cricket with country names. seeing as the country being represented means very little as the peole playing for the country can be from anywhere.

Then you'd be totally wrong. International cricket teams are virtually all made up entirely of their own nationals. Players can't just pick and choose which country they play for. There are residential requirements, I think it's five years a player has to live in a country before qualifying to represent them. While obviously not strict enough for some on these boards, that is quite a time commitment given the typical length of a sports career given that you obviously can't play for another side during the qualification period. It doesn't happen often at all these days.

It used to happen more frequently - before the end of apartheid there were quite a few South Africans playing for other countries, especially England (Alan Lamb, Robin Smith), and Graeme Hick famously abandoned Zimbabwe for England shortly before they gained test status but was never much of a success at test level (despite making 178 out of 347 in Bombay in 1993 - the next highest score was 49.). Probably should have stayed at home.

It would be refreshing if all the people who've watched a couple of world cup games and now regard themselves as cricket experts would take the trouble to educate themselves before spouting off their uninformed opinions all over the boards. I agree with others that there seem to be a few who are just relishing the chance to have a pop at England. Remember that it's Joyce's choice to declare for them, no-one's twisting his arm, he isn't being 'stolen' and he isn't guaranteed selection. Who can honestly say they would do otherwise in his position? tbh, Joyce is a decent player but he isn't exactly the new Bradman. He's probably some way from the England test side and Niall O'Brien isn't guaranteed a place either, which only illustrates the scale of the risk they're taking, and how hopelessly far Ireland is from any realistic possibility of test status.

Guy:Incognito

rockbeer wrote:

While obviously not strict enough for some on these boards, that is quite a time commitment given the typical length of a sports career given that you obviously can't play for another side during the qualification period. It doesn't happen often at all these days..

Was Ed Joyce not playing for Ireland as recently as this year (or at the very least last year)?

rockbeer wrote:

It would be refreshing if all the people who've watched a couple of world cup games and now regard themselves as cricket experts would take the trouble to educate themselves before spouting off their uninformed opinions all over the boards. I agree with others that there seem to be a few who are just relishing the chance to have a pop at England. Remember that it's Joyce's choice to declare for them, no-one's twisting his arm, he isn't being 'stolen' and he isn't guaranteed selection. Who can honestly say they would do otherwise in his position? tbh, Joyce is a decent player but he isn't exactly the new Bradman. He's probably some way from the England test side and Niall O'Brien isn't guaranteed a place either, which only illustrates the scale of the risk they're taking, and how hopelessly far Ireland is from any realistic possibility of test status.

I never claimed to be a cricket fan. I joined a debate on the nationality of players and stand by my opinion that you should'nt be able to switch countries in international sport(not just cricket).

As for having a pop at England? I support an English football club side and like to see the national team do well, so I cant see me developing an irrational dislike for them in a sport I dont follow.

Royale with Cheese

Stekelly wrote:

Was Ed Joyce not playing for Ireland as recently as this year (or at the very least last year)?

Ireland weren't recognised as an official One Day International team until last Summer. Their first game was in Belfast against England, in which Ed Joyce represented England.

Chucky the tree

thebaz wrote:

yeah -- but there non professional , who wouldn't get a sniff of there national team -- i take it Chucky your not Irish ?

I am irish, why makes you ask that?

bobbysands81

Just going back to my original point...

It is irrelevant what country Ed Joyce has chosen to play for, that's nothing to do with my point, and I hope it hasn't come across otherwise. If it was Oz he was playing for in the Ashes my point would have stood (however, it would be far more understandable if he had chosen to play for Oz after being "naturalised" there as to travel back to Ireland to represent her would probably be logistically impossible).

But surely if Ireland are serious about improving in all sorts of areas (facilities, standards, numbers playing, media exposure, coaching etc...) then we should be looking to keep all our top players? I understand we're miles away from Test standard but every journey starts with the first step!

And yes we should be allowed "adopt" players from other countries in the same way that the soccer team has, this is a logical and fair way of trying to make weaker teams stronger. The powers that be should be more interested in promoting the game internationally than serving their own selfish vested interests. I also think that other teams should not be allowed cherry pick the weaker teams best players - this just leads to further imbalance and does nothing for the game in the weaker country.

George Best played football at the highest level with his club - Man U. He didn't play football at the highest level with his country.

The same could have been said for Joyce before he turned his back on his country. I just don't buy into the "he wants to test himself at the highest level argument..." Surely he is doing that with his club team.

If that's not good enough for him then I'm afraid that I think it's unequitable and unfair that he leaves a weak country to play for one of the world's strongest. In the end he would have been able to play the game at one of its highest levels if he had stayed in Ireland and played for her in this years World Cup.

bobbysands81

copacetic wrote:

that's totally out of order, you are just as bad as bobby above, if not worse..

reported.

I actually take great umbrage to that mate.

What exactly have I said that's out of order???

sportaholic

bobbysands81 wrote:

The same could have been said for Joyce before he turned his back on his country. I just don't buy into the "he wants to test himself at the highest level argument..." Surely he is doing that with his club team.

A bit dramatic to say he turned his back on his country. And County cricket/domestic ODI's are a million miles away from test cricket/International ODI's

bobbysands81 wrote:

If that's not good enough for him then I'm afraid that I think it's unequitable and unfair that he leaves a weak country to play for one of the world's strongest. In the end he would have been able to play the game at one of its highest levels if he had stayed in Ireland and played for her in this years World Cup.

Yeah but he would have only have enjoyed a few weeks at the top level, what he really wants is to play test cricket all year round and there is only one way he can achieve that.

rockbeer

bobbysands81 wrote:

But surely if Ireland are serious about improving in all sorts of areas (facilities, standards, numbers playing, media exposure, coaching etc...) then we should be looking to keep all our top players?

And how exactly do you propose we 'look to keep them'? Tie them up in dungeons? Threaten them with excommunication? Ed Joyce has a free choice in this. I can't understand the mechanics of how you want to deprive him of this.

bobbysands81 wrote:

And yes we should be allowed "adopt" players from other countries

So Ireland should be allowed to take players from other countries but not the other way round?

Have you actually thought about what you're saying here? How is such a contradiction to be formalized?

bobbysands81 wrote:

The powers that be should be more interested in promoting the game internationally than serving their own selfish vested interests.

What exactly are these 'selfish vested interests'? Please spell out what you mean here. It sounds like you believe there is a plot to keep cricket from developing. The opposite is in fact true, the game is being promoted heavily outside of the test nations and the ICC is pouring money into cricket development in the wider world.

bobbysands81 wrote:

I also think that other teams should not be allowed cherry pick the weaker teams best players

This doesn't happen in actuality, as has been widely demonstrated in this and other threads. There is no mechanism for 'cherry picking'. A player who wants to qualify for another country must do so by residence over five years during which time they cannot play for another country. After that period there is no guarantee of selection for them. How exactly is this 'cherry picking'?

Again, have you actually thought about what you're saying?

bobbysands81 wrote:

George Best played football at the highest level with his club - Man U. He didn't play football at the highest level with his country.

He had the opportunity. Soccer is quite differently organized to cricket. If N. Ireland had been good enough to qualify they would have been to the world cup finals. Ed Joyce simply cannot play test cricket without going to another country. The circumstances are totally different and there's no validity in the comparison.

bobbysands81 wrote:

I just don't buy into the "he wants to test himself at the highest level argument..." Surely he is doing that with his club team.

You just show your ignorance of cricket by this statement. Club cricket is nowhere near the standard of international test cricket, unlike soccer where club sides are often the equals of international ones. There is no international club cricket. Middlesex will never play New South Wales. And it is universally accepted within the game that test cricket is it's highest form.

bobbysands81 wrote:

If that's not good enough for him then I'm afraid that I think it's unequitable and unfair that he leaves a weak country to play for one of the world's strongest.

So despite what you say above, you do in fact blame him and regard him as a traitor.

Please make up your mind.

bobbysands81 wrote:

In the end he would have been able to play the game at one of its highest levels if he had stayed in Ireland and played for her in this years World Cup.

And again you show your ignorance of cricket. Compared to test cricket, the wc is a knockabout in the park. Until people understand that they will never grasp what Joyce has done or why.

RuggieBear

I think Rockbeer sums it up nicely there.

i think i might lock this soon enough. the level of ignorance wrt cricket is beginning to wear me down.

bobbysands81

rockbeer wrote:

And how exactly do you propose we 'look to keep them'? Tie them up in dungeons? Threaten them with excommunication? Ed Joyce has a free choice in this. I can't understand the mechanics of how you want to deprive him of this.

You change the rules. How is it fair that a world leader can cherry pick a smaller country's best player??? How can weaker teams progress if their best players are taken away.

rockbeer wrote:

So Ireland should be allowed to take players from other countries but not the other way round?

That's exactly what I'm saying. It will enable the weaker teams to compete, thus incraesing interest in that country, increasing sponsorship, more people will want to play etc...

There's a big knock-on effect in a country when a team does well. Are you saying you don't think that Ireland's participation in the WC will have a knock-on effect to the game in this country?

rockbeer wrote:

What exactly are these 'selfish vested interests'? Please spell out what you mean here. It sounds like you believe there is a plot to keep cricket from developing. The opposite is in fact true, the game is being promoted heavily outside of the test nations and the ICC is pouring money into cricket development in the wider world.

Yet players from weak countries are still allowed to opt for stronger ones - this is bad for the game in developing countries.

The rest of your post posits a valid point of view but I disagree with it. If cricket is to ever take off properly in countries like Ireland then it is imperative that the rules are changed to allow us to keep our best players.

bobbysands81

RuggieBear wrote:

I think Rockbeer sums it up nicely there.

i think i might lock this soon enough. the level of ignorance wrt cricket is beginning to wear me down.

Maybe some people want cricket to remain a clique sport.

Marshy

Royale with Cheese wrote:

Here's something you might like.

Very funny That Anil Kumble appeal thing is hilarious!

Just to add that Phil Simmons, Irelands new coach commented on the 'Ed Joyce' issue on sky yesterday. Cant remember all he said, but mentioned that the ICU might have to review their stance on the whole issue of our best players moving on. I guess he thinks that if we're to progress in a meaningful way we'll need our best players. But as has been said in this thread, unfortunately theres very little to stop the likes of EJ changing countries.

RuggieBear

bobbysands81 wrote:

Maybe some people want cricket to remain a clique sport.

dude why don't you go and join your local cricket club. nobody will stop you... in fact they would welcome you with open arms. Tell me where you live and i'll tell you your local club and give you their contact details.

Then get all your friends to join.

then tell me how much of a clique sport cricket is.

rockbeer

bobbysands81 wrote:

How is it fair that a world leader can cherry pick a smaller country's best player???

You still continue to use this emotive and inaccurate language. Ed Joyce CHOSE to declare for England, yet you still try to portray England as the protagonist in this. How exactly did they 'cherry pick' him? Do you know something we don't? Was he bribed or threatened to make him change sides? Please explain or stop using the term.

bobbysands81 wrote:

That's exactly what I'm saying. It will enable the weaker teams to compete, thus incraesing interest in that country, increasing sponsorship, more people will want to play etc...

But it's completely impractical and arbitrary. It poses restraint of trade issues. How do you identify 'weak' and 'strong' nations and how do you account for the fact that these are relative terms that change over time. In what way is it fair or just that, say, Jeremy Bray should be able to elect to play for Ireland yet Joyce not able to elect to play for England. I can see what you're saying in the wider sense but you seem unable to accept that your proposal creates an intolerable situation on the individual level.

bobbysands81 wrote:

There's a big knock-on effect in a country when a team does well. Are you saying you don't think that Ireland's participation in the WC will have a knock-on effect to the game in this country?

Of course not, it's obviously good for the game here and I'm ecstatic about it. What I'm saying is that you can't enforce the development of Irish cricket by legislating to limit the behaviour of individuals. The best way for Ireland to keep it's top players is to create a genuinely thriving competitive first class structure here. That will create a proper incentive for players to stay. As it is, cricket is a tiny minority sport with little real foundation here, yet you're happy to limit the ambition of talented individuals like Ed Joyce to operating within that narrow framework. Since you're fond of football analogies, you tell me whether Roy Keane should have been made to stay in Cork rather than going to Forest?

bobbysands81 wrote:

If cricket is to ever take off properly in countries like Ireland then it is imperative that the rules are changed to allow us to keep our best players.

We are already 'allowed' to keep our best players. Our best players are also 'allowed' to decline the opportunity to represent us. What you really seem to be saying is the rules should be changed to compel our best players to play for us. Can't see how that makes for a happy team situation. I'd love to see Joyce commit himself to Ireland, but I can't see how any good would come of forcing him to do so.

dulpit

Reading through the posts and thinking about it further i think the galling thing about the whole ed joyce thing is not that he's playing with England but that he was a member of the Irish team that qualified for the world cup before defecting to england... If that were not the case then it wouldn't be such a big deal... Perhaps there should be a rule stating that if a player is to move that he can't play for 2 country's in the same year or maybe longer (?) Or even just make him "cup-tied" like they have in soccer (i know i'm going back to soccer but anyway) because Joyce was part of an Irish team that took part in what was effectively a world cup qualifier he should not have played in the world cup with a different team - like when a player is transferred in soccer, if he has played in the champions league with 1 team he can't play with the other team until the following season... Just my thoughts anyway...