Setting up a Fish & Chip Shop

tvr

There some commercial space coming up in a new built shopping area which is scheduled for completition in the end of the year in my locaility . I have come to the conclusion that a chippy is best suited to the location about 5000 people within 5 min walk and new housing developement planned. So I am now in the process of beginning a feasibility study.

Anyway I have the relevant business qualifications , however i have no real time experiences of running a business in this industry.

I was wondering whether people would recommend maybe taking a job in another chippy to get some experiences ?

or would my time be better suited meeting with various enterprise boards to learn that way.

I just wondering if anyone knows if the likes of the enterprise board help sourcing supplier , trainers etc and would they have any ideas of cost , machinery, fittings , set ups.

Also does this kind of venture allow me to rollback responsibility in a year or so to a manager or does it really always have to be a hands on business as I would like to be free to move on to other things?

Any feedback would be great.

ballooba

Be careful. Retail and Hospitality have the highest failure rates.

If you're really into it you might investigate a Godfather's Pizza franchise. They seem to be doing really well at the moment.

tvr

yeah i have had a look at them , theres already 4 pizza places in the locality ( 3 local and 1 franchise ) so might leave does one , is it possible to use the cro to see what turnover they are making or do these places hide their profits.

pjbrady1

The fastest growing fast food outlets at the moment are anything to do with Gourmet Burgers. It strikes a nice balance between quality and price.
Margins are also better than a place with lower quality fare.
Enterprise boards usually would not support ventures such as fast food outlets. With fast food it really is a build and they will come approach. If you can put together a nice place that is popular then it won't be worthwhile for anyone to enter the market against you. Keep prices reasonable in first eighteen months to build custom. Anyways you know those kind of things.

drdre

pjbrady1 wrote:

The fastest growing fast food outlets at the moment are anything to do with Gourmet Burgers. It strikes a nice balance between quality and price.
Margins are also better than a place with lower quality fare.
Enterprise boards usually would not support ventures such as fast food outlets. With fast food it really is a build and they will come approach. If you can put together a nice place that is popular then it won't be worthwhile for anyone to enter the market against you. Keep prices reasonable in first eighteen months to build custom. Anyways you know those kind of things.

Yes my fathers in the restaurant and takeaway business for years and he has said this to me to open a high end fresh burger place.I think theres a growing market for organic etc in ireland.

tvr

Yeah i dont really want any financial support from enterprise boards just general knowledge like a list of suppliers , cost etc involved.

Thats why i was thinking of getting some real time experience by taking a job in the industry for a few months . Learn from the bottom and work up?

I do like that idea of gourmet burger place, however i dont know if the that would fit with the demographics that I am currently looking at. Does anyone have any links to existing places doing this already maybe in the UK.

I do remember a TV programe a while pack where I guy set up a gourmet burger place in london , cooked the burgers from beautiful steaks downside wasnt that fast and he but it in the wrong area . Anyone remember that.

Also drdre is your father still very hands on running the business or has taken a back seat?

Does anyone know what kind of prices points these gourmet burgers would sell at , as the standard in the area for chips is 2.40 and 2.20 for a plain old chips and burgers are like 5.40 etc so if i could do gourmet burgers for the same that would might work.

Also I was away in Barcelona this week, and there was a few Mexican food franchise available which wasnt bad , dont seem to have any premises in Ireland?

drdre

tvr wrote:

Yeah i dont really want any financial support from enterprise boards just general knowledge like a list of suppliers , cost etc involved.

Thats why i was thinking of getting some real time experience by taking a job in the industry for a few months . Learn from the bottom and work up?

I do like that idea of gourmet burger place, however i dont know if the that would fit with the demographics that I am currently looking at. Does anyone have any links to existing places doing this already maybe in the UK.

I do remember a TV programe a while pack where I guy set up a gourmet burger place in london , cooked the burgers from beautiful steaks downside wasnt that fast and he but it in the wrong area . Anyone remember that.

Also drdre is your father still very hands on running the business or has taken a back seat?

Does anyone know what kind of prices points these gourmet burgers would sell at , as the standard in the area for chips is 2.40 and 2.20 for a plain old chips and burgers are like 5.40 etc so if i could do gourmet burgers for the same that would might work.

Also I was away in Barcelona this week, and there was a few Mexican food franchise available which wasnt bad , dont seem to have any premises in Ireland?

My dad's still very hands on, its a type of business in which you have to be there most of the time unless you can afford to have top staff. Checkout his website www.letseatin.ie
He has 2 branches and opening another soon.He started in the business nearly 25 years ago:eek: .
Also suppliers isnt a problem if you go to the catex or any catering show in rds or belfast you will get good suppliers i can help you out with suppliers if you just pm me.
Good luck with your venture and their is a mexican place in ranelagh.

tvr

cheers might take you up on that offer, yeah thats a great set up he has got there covers all the foods. very impressive. would he being thinking of expanding to the north side areas malahide , portmarknock , swords etc..

ballooba

The Mexican place in Ranelagh is the most under exploited idea I have ever seen in my life. The food is great but the management are terrible at running a restaurant. The service in there is dire.

I have two ideas for you TVR I'll send them over PM.

antoinolachtnai

If you haven't worked in food before, you should start now. Education-wise, FAS might have a course that is relevant. I'm not really sure.

Planning permission can be an issue for takeaways. You need ducting and all sorts of things.

You need a fair bit of money to get these things up and running.

If you want to go into gourmet-burger land (which seems like a good idea) then you need a food guru. Even if you go more downmarket, you really do need some help from someone who knows a lot about the cooking side.

tvr

yeah cheers ballooba , yeah there some great ideas might make some phone calls in the morning to get things rolling , in regards to planning its already been zoned for 3 restaurants and 1 takeway so no problems there.

I had thought that the mexican idea from barcelona was very impressive as the food etc was very taste , however if one was to be set up it probably have to be in a larger shopping centre more as a restuarant rather than a takeway,

I have a look at fas now , however are these actually of any benefit knowledge ways , i don't want a stupid paper cert and have learnt nothing.

drdre

tvr wrote:

cheers might take you up on that offer, yeah thats a great set up he has got there covers all the foods. very impressive. would he being thinking of expanding to the north side areas malahide , portmarknock , swords etc..

No i donot think so its mainly blanchardstown,shankill and sandyford.

drdre

The main expense is going to be eqipment and rent.Because in my dads place it nearly cost 300-350k for equipment,installation and some building work.Keep that in mind but your idea will be smaller than this one.

Anyway good luck, What cusine are you thinking of, have your mind made up 110% before you start doing more research.

pjbrady1

Honestly I don't think you need to spend alot of time working within the food industry to set this up. Now I know talk is cheap, personally I have no interest in setting up a food business. But I have a friend setup a Gourmet Burger place that is succesful and he only ran a food distribution place before.

Lets assume capital is not a problem for you. I imagine you have savings. Maybe borrow a little from your father/brother to make the starting capital invested by yourself more impressive. Now your looking to borrow more from the bank to get the business up and running.
Now you are preparing your business plan and the banks will ask you "Prove their is a market there" So you take the following Irish businesses
1. Bobos in Wexford street - Jay Bourke of Cafe bar deli
2. GB company in shop street galway
3. The Gourmet Burger company in Smithfield and few other spots - Not sure who running this
Refer to the type of locations these places are and the foot traffic. Now refer back to your own foot traffic.

Also can refer to the massive expansion of Gourmet Burger King in the UK who will soon have 42 outlets after just eighteen months or so.

With all of the above places it is very noticeable that they have their own distinctive look and feel as soon as you walk in the door. You cannot have your place looking like a typical "get em in get em out" fast food joint. You need nice unique menu signs. Unique menus. UNique shop front. YOU get the picture.

The product you need nice burgers but you dont need top of the line organic meat. Good angus beef will do which is plentiful in this country and not much more expensive than unbranded beef. You can also maybe add in a bit of a different range by running lines of Hereford beef, and possibly Galloway beef sourced from www.omegabeefdirect.ie
Differentiate the burger with toppings mexican, irish, usa, italian - the usual distinctions.
Chips must be nice and have a variety of sauces available. Drinks must also make an effort. Go into BOBOs and see all the little quirks that make you come back offering you endless configurations of your meal/drink.
Bobo's even serve their chips in mini steel buckets!
Who would have thought you could sell glasses of TK lemonade at 3 euro.

So the final question. Will people in your area by Gourmet Burgers. Well if its a bad area it might struggle. But if the income and demographics is there a little door to door or open eyed research will show it. If you have plenty people earning 25k+ then you will sell those burgers.

I would be interested in discussing with you for free in private if you wish.
Just to develop a business plan. Always interested in ideas getting executed, I'm interested in setting up business myself but not in food area.

Suppliers wise go for reliable companies with good produce that have consistently shown the ability to supply businesses. Also have backup suppliers noted in case your supplier breaks down. Pay your staff on commission of sales. The worst businesses in Dublin are those that pay their staff the bare minimum. Nothing worse than unmotivated staff.

With your high quality fare you would also be succesful in deliveries.

Finally business plan if you google business plan software you will find plenty business plan examples for food businesses.


Lastly, drive on the business by taking care of things at night time. When you are really needed is when repairs are needed to equipment or stuff needs to be moved or for example full scale clean downs.. I recently witnessed a slightly unhappy Jay Bourke appear in Bobos as the restaurant manager moved the fridges around during the middle of the day. He was not best pleased at the ridiculous time of the day the change was being made - the manager had just sauntered in. Question, if he was hungry why was it not changed at night time instead of customers walking around a dirty fridge?

Talk soon,
P.J.

ballooba

I'm not convinced by the gourmet burger idea. Given the interest in that area and the number of startups there is going to be a shakeout fairly soon and a lot of people will lose a lot of money.

I'm actually surprised that the shakeout in the espresso bar market hasn't happened yet. All of those chains which popped up hoping to be bought out by Starbucks. Interesting times coming in that business.

drdre wrote:

The main expense is going to be eqipment and rent.Because in my dads place it nearly cost 300-350k for equipment,installation and some building work.Keep that in mind but your idea will be smaller than this one.

Yes, but with the number of businesses failing in this sector there is definitely lots of used gear around. Liquidation auction sites are full of catering equipment.

jetsonx

Thinking outside the box here - who says you have to open a food establishment? Look at other options - the food business is very very tough.

If you really want to stick with the food idea - why not consider a franchise as Balooba has suggested. Its a tried and tested business system which the banks love.

The whole idea of gourmet burgers sounds cool etc etc but at the end of the day there is myriad of problems this idea could have. Relatively expensive raw materials, inconsistent suppliers etc

I know someone who closed down his gourmet food takeaway and replaced it with a franchise as the raw material costs were killing his bottom line - now hes raking it in.

ps: before you make any decision speak to an experienced and trusted small business accountant. good luck

ballooba

pjbrady1 wrote:

1. Bobos in Wexford street - Jay Bourke of Cafe bar deli

That's another reason I wouldn't touch it. Jay Bourke is not in that business to have a successful chipper. He wants a chain.

I'm about a third of the way through a business plan here which has to be done for the morning. It's based on an idea I heard of being trialled in California recently. My business plan off the bat is per plant, not for one plant.

pjbrady1

All of those Gourmet Burger outlets I mentioned are far apart geographically. Also it is not like pizza, supermacs, etc. When customers are looking to eat a Gourmet Burger they don't want to feel like they are just another strange customer in a huge chain that's only purpose is to get as many in and expand, expand.

As long as you have nice demographics in your area you are unlikely to see a competitor go up against you. If your business is established your not going to see a completely new startup/chain trying to take your loyal customers.

Gourmet Burgers has plenty potential to expand so they would rather setup in greenfield areas that do not have a Gourmet Burger establishment already.

Also the ability to open outlets is helped by the fact that nationwide the demand and market for Gourmet Burgers is growing unlike coffee which has hit a plateau.

ballooba

You said yourself that Gourmet Burger King have 42 restaurants. They will be eyeing up Ireland soon.

Jay Bourke already has 6 Cafe Bar Delis. I'd be willing to put money on that he will have at least 20 of these Gourmet Burger bars within 3 years.

pjbrady1

I agree he will definitely expand but I'm not sure to what degree and it might be under a different name. If you go into Bobos you sense a unique charm to the place that you might lose if you turn it into a chain.
He has been running cafe bar deli since the mid to late 90's and its only at 6 outlets. Doubt he will go much beyond that.

ballooba

CBD was started in 2001. It's a different animal to a fast food outlet. He has done well to have 6 restaurants that size in 6 years. These are a lot smaller and easier to set up.

drdre

ballooba wrote:

You said yourself that Gourmet Burger King have 42 restaurants. They will be eyeing up Ireland soon.

Jay Bourke already has 6 Cafe Bar Delis. I'd be willing to put money on that he will have at least 20 of these Gourmet Burger bars within 3 years.

Where are his burger branches?

ballooba

drdre wrote:

Where are his burger branches?

Well he only has one at the moment, but it would be strange for him to get involved in running a chipper. I assume he has his eye on a chain.

drdre

ballooba wrote:

Well he only has one at the moment, but it would be strange for him to get involved in running a chipper. I assume he has his eye on a chain.

Yeah i would think its a chain but whats it called and where is it?

ballooba

drdre wrote:

Yeah i would think its a chain but whats it called and where is it?

Oh, I meant he has his eye on growing a chain. Not buying one. I think he is looking to build a model that he can use anywhere.

tvr

Cheers pj for the detailed post , really informative i do think that the gourmet burger is actually a very interesting proposition and would no doubt work in the right place with the right marketing however I still think for the current developement that I am looking it , i think it would not fit with the area. However it would be interesting to see what the margins are and what the price points are .

However I might look into it in a different area , maybe serving the delivery area of Malahide, Howth , Portmarknock . Might do abit of follow up research on this aswell , are these operations actually successfuly yet in the UK , ie the King crowd cause might take a field trip over. As a franchise is always safer and more likely to get backing from a bank if required.

tvr

PJ is it Gourmet Burger Kitchen , their burgers seem abit pricey 5-7 pounds sterling.

pjbrady1

Yes it's Gourmet Burger Kitchen, found that article I read. They expect to have 42 outlets by end of 2008. At moment they have 22 outlets. Apparently all outlets were trading very favourably within one month.
If you want to buy their shares they are trading at P/E 22.5
Pretty cheap for a small expanding profitable chain. Would have to see what their net margin is obviously.
The outlets are mainly in London.

drdre

is there one of those Gourmet Burger Kitchen in dublin?

Sorry guys just found the website ,they have a branch in dub loaire
http://www.realgourmetburger.ie/

stephenslyman

my friend is running a fish distribution business based in north spain if your still looking a supplier for your shop. his name is milos hes a good guy and very helpful.
website : www.ducamar.com

kmh

Hi,

I am a new user and I registered specifically becasue of this particular topic. I can see that it is quite old but it is of significance to me as I am currently also looking at setting up a Fish & Chip shop.

TVR - did you proceed and if so, how is it going and what advice would you offer?