Is is a good idea to suppress evidence to the contrary?

aare

I am rather disturbed that this thread was closed just because my own experience and the proveable facts of my own situation contradict the preferred stance of the board in question:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53036781#post53036781

I do not claim to be a norm, but neither am I unique, it's not my fault that my body and metabolism do not respond in the way that their preferred stance says they should.

I was just trying to ask for a little openmindedness towards people who have metabolic problems and need to seek more drastic solutions.

I would also like to point out that the individual who closed the thread, with what many could consider an unprovoked personal flame, was one of the most voluble in objecting to setting up a seperate forum just for weight loss.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=52191324
It is setting up a situation where one can only post honestly about weight loss and weight problems if one's metabolism accords strictly with the guidelines laid down by a handful of members of the fitness forum which, while they may be fairly normal, are certainly not universal!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

aare

So you think that Dragan flaming and silencing anyone who's facts and experiences do not honestly conform to his preferred worldview is an effective approach to optimal fitness and health?

I would disagree.

As I would disagree with most things you are saying.

Obesity IS in itself an abnormality, and a very dangerous one, that is in many, or even most cases, caused by metabolic abnormality.

Do you feel that berating someone who's metabolism does not conform to your personal perception of normality is an healthy approach to a metabolic problem?

And if you don't why are you defending and supporting such behaviors?

We live in a country where even cervical smears tend to have an average turnaround of six months. Do you REALLY think that the people who are overweight due to metabolic problems that are beyond their control are best served by remaining obese, (perhaps while being berated by members of boards unless they pretend to be either binge eating or losing weight to conform to the stated norm), and perhaps even gaining weight, until a time, as yet to be determined, when the health service has it's act together sufficiently to be able to analyse, isolate and address the problem?

Do you think that suppressing valid information while berating and villifying such people for trying the only things that work for them is any safer than "giving medical advice"?

And if so, why?

Lipotrim has been cleared for safe use by the medical profession and all relevant licencing authorities.

ecksor

Lots of things are cleared for safe use by the medical profession that we don't allow advice to given about on boards.

Anyway, what has been suppressed exactly? There's a lot of threads on the subject, which daveirl has helpfully linked to for anyone who wants to read them. Is there something that has been left unsaid?

Cuddlesworth

ecksor wrote:

Is there something that has been left unsaid?

Nope which can only mean one thing, cat pictures and insider jokes are coming just around the bend...

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

aare

If that is what you believe, DaveIrl, then why are people being berated, mocked, bullied and abused instead of being told that you think they should seek medical advice?

And don't you think it might be more healthy if, in future, the mocking bullying and abusing were abandoned in favor of polite suggestions that they seek medical advice? As that is what you believe.

And if you belive it should be discussed elsewhere would it not make a lot, mentally and physically healthier sense to post that list of links rather than berating, bullying and mocking the poster?

Ecksor,

Posting is only allowed on the topic until somebody posts personal experience that does not conform to the preferred stance of the forum.

(You could argue that, in a sense, the forum belongs to it's regular posters, and I would agree with you if they had not been so keen to prevent the topic having it's own seperate forum for discussion.)

It seems to me that the only way to achive an accurate, balanced and effective stance on any topic, is to respectfully take into account all points of view and experiences, not just the ones that agree with your personal opinion. Otherwise how on earth will you ever realise if you personal opinion is, if not wholly wrong, than, at least, not entirely right?

Personally I am very keen to hear of any life experiences that contradict my own opinions on any topic, because they help me to "keep it real".

Perhaps that is another area where I am at variance with 99.999 (recurring) % of the population?

ecksor

I don't think you've answered my question. What is being suppressed exactly?

To be clear, Dragan's reasons for closing the thread and your complaint don't match. He saw a trainwreck brewing and stopped it. He hasn't deleted any posts that I can see.

You say in that title that evidence is being suppressed, but you appear to be actually complaining that discussion is being suppressed. Hence I am focusing on what evidence is left to be presented.

Call me nitty, but if you're going to make a complaint then I'd like to know what the actual complaint is so we can address things clearly.

aare

What is being suppressed is any real life experience that does not fully support the preferred stance of a few posters on the board (which is in itself not a full or accurate impartial representation of medical fact). Real life experience IS evidence.

Lipotrim is only allowed to be discussed as long as those discussing it refrain from referring to the reality whereby the particular regime of diet and exercise aggressively promoted on the fitness forum does not lead to the weight loss they insist it does for everybody, including people with sub clinical metabolic dysfunction that there is often no way to identify and treat specifically.

So what are people who's honest personal experience contradicts the preferred (and not wholly accurate) hypothesis promoted on the fitness forum to actually do?

a) Pretend they have lost weight they desperately need to by the promoted method when they haven't actually lost an ounce, just to conform and keep everybody happy?
b) Pretend they have only failed to lose weight because they did not adhere to the preferred method when, in fact they stuck to it religiously?
c) Reject methods of weight loss that would work for them and continue to gain weight, against their own health needs, in response to, often quite ruthlessly applied social pressure?

I am personally furious at all the blind cant about how "you will definately lose weight through healthy eating, refraining from undereating and exercise" when I have 7 years of soul destroying life experience that has proved that, for me, that is never going to be the case, and the rather obvious, common sense conclusion that it is also unlikely to be the case for quite an high proportion of people who are morbidly obese and need to lose the weight far too desperately for it to be even remotely healthy for anybody to try and pressure them into methods that will never work for them while refusing to hear the facts and experiences that confirm that, except to ridicule and distort them in pursuit of an empty, semantic victory of some kind.

What Dragan saw was not a "trainwreck brewing" or he would have closed the discussion at the point where I was being quite irrationally ridiculed and attacked for simply expressing my personal experience, honestly, as it really happened, that had demonstrated that the opinions of some posters did not represent quite the whole and universal picture they were constantly insisting it did, and even if he did not see the discussion early enough to close it at that point he most certainly would have closed it without posting in a manner many would consider to be flaming me in a very personal way as he did.

You do not, after all, derail a trainwreck with personal provocation.

Do you?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

aare

DaveIrl,

Let me remind you of what I said:

Lipotrim is only allowed to be discussed as long as those discussing it refrain from referring to the reality whereby the particular regime of diet and exercise aggressively promoted on the fitness forum does not lead to the weight loss they insist it does for everybody, including people with sub clinical metabolic dysfunction that there is often no way to identify and treat specifically.

No other poster on that thread made any reference to not being able to lose the weight by the particular regime of diet and exercise aggressively promoted on the fitness forum, or indeed any other way, in spite of trying, which is the exact element that is being suppressed here.

That is also something it is very wrong to strive to suppress.

What effect do you think it has on the scores of people for whom the preferred regime will never work, but to make them feel more useless and alienated than the fat already makes them feel. It is a clear message, often almost spelled out in as many words that says:
"You can't lose weight the way we say you should because you are A FAILURE who is too lazy and weak willed to do it properly our way"

When the truth is that the only "failure" is likely to be in their metabolic function and way beyond their conscious control.

The individual who strove to suppress that is Dragan, who has been a member since 2005, and who closed the thread with remarks aimed at me that many people would construe to be a provocative personal flame.

(Apart from which, is it really all right for posters to try to use personal abuse, ridicule and distortion to browbeat other posters into agreeing with them if they have only been members since March? Somehow I doubt it, and if he was only "questioning" what I said where is the "train wreck" Dragan was supposed to be trying to avert AT ALL?)

Dragan

Aare,

I will not be drawn into a quote for quote with you as i did last time. Myself and Dave have lately been making a concerted effort to keep the board fresh and keep discussion moving.

The Lipotrim was stagnant, rehashing exactly the same information as has come up a million times. People say they want to do it, advice is given for an against and then it all breaks down into argument.

Might i add that i am not repressing anything, though i will confess that i am trying to aim the conversation in a certain direction, and that is civility.

Last time you and i discussed Lipotrim you sent me PM's telling me i obviously had an eating disorder, and pretty much accused me of using illegal substances publically on the board. I will not have you subjecting any other users of the Fitness Forum to that kind of behaviour, and to be honest should i find out that anyone else has received such PM's then i will have to take some sort of action.

That conversation was going no where and I you were doing nothing to help people, simply saying "I am medically unique and you can't help me." Well fair play, but that doesn't help Jonny Punchclock who is a little overweight because he's lazy and eats too much and doesn't need Lipotrim.

Anyone who genuinely DOES need Lipotrim for MEDICAL REASONS cannot be offered advice from our board, we do not offer medical advice. Lipotrim threads walk that line all the time, so we have decided to cull discussion on it.

If for some reason the old calories in vs calories out effect does not work for ANYONE, then that is once more a medical issue and if you look at the Charter originally drawn up by JAK you will see that we are not a medical board and WILL NOT offer medical advice.

It's really that simple.

Hobbes

Although I don't go in that forum much, as I understand it the lipotrim subject has been done to death there. Hence the reason it gets locked.

Of course the fitness forum is so easy to troll. Try telling them how the Wii can be used as an athletic fitness program.

aare

Dragan,

I see nothing in your post here to explain what you felt you would achieve by closing that thread to further discussion by making a post to me that many people would consider to be a provocative personal flame.

I was not even close to claiming that I was medically unique, to the contrary, I was at pains to point out that the same problems that rendered your preferred strategy absolutely useless to me and caused the weight gain in the first place, also applied to a significant number of other people with serious weight problems.

I had no intention of raising any of the other issues again, but as you insist on raising them yourself, let me state that, last year, I was actually horrified to discover that while berating me in very unecessary and often distorted personal ways for using lipotrim on one thread you were admitting and advocating the use of "illegal substances" in bodybuilding on another, and I confess myself further horrified last night to discover that in spite of such dangerous practices and double standards you have been appointed a moderator.

I will also state that, I saw considerable evidence to suggest that you were, in fact sublimating an eating disorder into and irrational fanaticism about some aspects of body building to the extent that I felt extremelly concerned for you. I saw this during the course of what many people would call a "flame war", circumstance in which many people would have chosen to drag the whole issue out in public.

However, as my concern was (and is) sincere and human, as opposed to "structural" (in terms of winning an argument) I chose to accede to your insistent demands for further clarification of my attitude to you in private, instead of in public, where nobody but you and I would be aware of what was said, and what I see ample evidence to suggest.

Believe it or not, between that day and this I have never mentioned any aspect of that dialogue to a living soul, on or off boards.

I have, however, just taken the precaution of saving the dialogue.

I did not post here asking for advice (as you would know if you actually read the thread) I simply posted my own experience there, honestly, with both good and bad, for others to read for their information and asked for greater tolerance, and human compassion, in future for any other posters who's metabolisms, for whatever reason, refused to endorse your personal opinions, way beyond their control, let alone their fault, or failure.

brianthebard

OP a bad metabolism is responsible for obesity in only a tiny portion of obese people. As you get heavier your metabolism has to speed up in order to keep doing the same work that it did when you were lighter. If it is a case that you have a genuine metabolic condition then you should not be looking for information from an internet forum, but instead seeking the help of specialists. Even the average GP will not be able to help you much, since they deal with general medical issues and this is a very specific problem. Personally I feel it should be obvious that if you have metabolic condition then lipotrim will not help. We all know that boards, regardless of which forum, is not somewhere to deal with medical issues and it seems to me that you have done just that.

Boston

Have to say Dragan is coming off the more rational here. He's levelled some claims about you and rather then deny them you have re-enforced them, still accusing him of have an eating disorder and prescribing the use of illegal substances. That's a fairly serious accusation your making, one which you offer no proof of.

ecksor

Why am I seeing massive rants about lipotrim when I'm asking simple questions about objections to a mod decision? Admins are a lot easier to get a decision from when you don't make posts that actually clearly answer questions instead of looking like a propaganda leaflet. Getting breakfast looks more appealing than deciphering this mess right now.

aare

ecksor,

I should hope that I have answered every question put to me as clearly as possible, in spite of feeling driven to constantly correct ensuing distortions of every word I post.

Strangely, I do not see anybody answering any of the questions I have asked in the course of this at all such as:

Do you feel that berating someone who's metabolism does not conform to your personal perception of normality is an healthy approach to a metabolic problem?

And if you don't why are you defending and supporting such behaviors?

Do you think that suppressing valid information while berating and villifying such people for trying the only things that work for them is any safer than "giving medical advice"?

And if so, why?

So you think that Dragan flaming and silencing anyone who's facts and experiences do not honestly conform to his preferred worldview is an effective approach to optimal fitness and health?

brianthebard,

That a dysfunctional metabolism is only responsible for a *tiny* proportion of obesity is, without substantiation, your personal opinion, and you are, of course, entitled to it, however I am begining to wonder how often I will have to state that:

I did not post here asking for advice (as you would know if you actually read the thread) I simply posted my own experience there, honestly, with both good and bad, for others to read for their information and asked for greater tolerance, and human compassion, in future for any other posters who's metabolisms, for whatever reason, refused to endorse your personal opinions, way beyond their control, let alone their fault, or failure.

Before everybody realises that is not only what I said, it is also, exactly what I meant.

People DO post queries about Lipotrim, people post their honest experience of Lipotrim, those post should be treated with courtesy, as should any post from a person who has tried all the other approaches without either hope or success...because they my just be telling the simple truth about their own reality, and if they are, are likely to be in considerable distress that deserves, and often needs, a better, more respectful response than the usual derisory variations on:

"It WILL work if you stop being lazy and weak willed and do it properly" which implies that the only problem is that they are lying about how hard they have tried.

Boston,

You are also entitled to your opinion.

Hobbes

wow didn't take long to turn into a lipotrim thread.

ecksor

This is the Feedback forum, where you've raised a query about moderation. I personally have no interest in a debate about lipotrim or metabolism or exercise. Feeding that discussion is only to the detriment of addressing any moderation issues you encounter. Focused brevity is the most desirable attribute of any post on this thread.

Boston

Focused brevity

As far as i can tell he's accusing Dragan of three things

1) Personally attacking him
2) Having an eating disorder
3) Advising the use of illegal substances.

No support is offered to the last two, while a link to this post is provided for the first. No solutions are offered, nor does he outline what he wants the admins to do. In conclusion, this is a largely direction less rant.

end line carriage return.

aare

ecksor,

I find it curious that you should object to me trying to correct any misunderstandings or misconstructions of what I have said on this thread and yet, apparently, perfectly acceptable that a moderator should close a thread with what many would consider a personal flame to a good faith poster, let alone that the same moderator should be given the power to do so after publicly admitting his use and advocacy of illegal substances in body building (something I have no intention of raising until he did).

I just wanted to use facts to try and persuade the fitness forum to quit abusing anyone who's life experience challenged their alarming degree of self apponted expertise.

I agree that, in real terms it was foolish and inappropriate for me to raise the importance of concepts such as "facts", "reality", "respect for others" and "fairness" on boards.

nesf

aare wrote:

I was not even close to claiming that I was medically unique, to the contrary, I was at pains to point out that the same problems that rendered your preferred strategy absolutely useless to me and caused the weight gain in the first place, also applied to a significant number of other people with serious weight problems.

Ok, here's the thing as far as I can see (and it does kind of apply to myself as well, so I've given this a fair amount of thought). The fitness forum is essentially a lay forum of people who either love themselves, love the idea of being "fit" or just love exercising. None of these are bad things but as a forum the members there, in general, are not equipped or experienced in a manner to help people with medical issue that are best left to medical professionals.

If you are heavily overweight and a solid exercise routine doesn't help you lose weight then there is really little to no point bringing it up in that forum. They, by definition, can't help you; assuming that the exercise routing you are doing and your diet aren't at fault.

This is, generally, why I don't post there. I've been stuck on and off prescription drugs over the years that **** with my metabolism. Large weight gain/loss, appetite loss/increase etc are all abnormal things that really that forum can't cater for. There was no point in me discussing these on that forum since any advice they could give me would premise a "normal" metabolism.

Does that make sense?

ecksor

aare wrote:

I find it curious that you should object to me trying to correct any misunderstandings or misconstructions of what I have said on this thread

You may correct as you see fit. I'm letting you know why a disjointed and noisy thread is not productive for getting a moderation complaint dealt with. Is that clearer?

and yet, apparently, perfectly acceptable that a moderator should close a thread with what many would consider a personal flame to a good faith poster,

I've posted my initial impressions and I haven't been getting particularly clear responses to those impressions. Assuming anything else is just reading more into my posts than is actually there.

let alone that the same moderator should be given the power to do so after publicly admitting his use and advocacy of illegal substances in body building (something I have no intention of raising until he did).

Well, you've raised it now, so back it up.

I just wanted to use facts to try and persuade the fitness forum to quit abusing anyone who's life experience challenged their alarming degree of self apponted expertise.

I don't read the fitness forum. It has zero interest for me. If you're trying to make a point then make clear statements and link to examples. Avoid loaded statements (you've consistently described Dragan's behaviour in poor terms. Present the examples and your POV and I'll come up with my own adjectives).

I agree that, in real terms it was foolish and inappropriate for me to raise the importance of concepts such as "facts", "reality", "respect for others" and "fairness" on boards.

Listen, get into a tiff with everyone else as much as you want. The only person on this thread who can actually answer your complaint is me. This sort of attitude when you've been fuelling a noisy thread doesn't encourage me to make an effort.

aare

Boston wrote:

As far as i can tell he's accusing Dragan of three things

1) Personally attacking him
2) Having an eating disorder
3) Advising the use of illegal substances.

No support is offered to the last two, while a link to this post is provided for the first. No solutions are offered, nor does he outline what he wants the admins to do. In conclusion, this is a largely direction less rant.

end line carriage return.

Actually, Dragan, not me, raised the issue of his advocacy of illegal substances and my private concerns about him, I just corrected the misleading impression he gave of those issues, which, it seems to me, is a perfectly reasonable thing for me to do.

Nesf,

Up to a point I would agree with you IF the posters on the fitness forum had no taken it upon themselves to do everything in their power to prevent a seperate weight loss forum and they opted for either politely and respectfully refusing all discussion on these topics, OR discussing all viewpoints freely and with equal respect, as opposed to berating anyone who's opinions, or even real experiences, do not agree with them.

Dragan

Aare,

one of the main arguments against the Weightloss forum at the time was once again the Medical issue.And it still is.

Everything is covered in fitness from healthy eating to excercising..... if that does not work for someone then we are looking at all sorts of endocrinal and medical problems and that is not what we deal with on message boards.

aare

Ecksor,

If you cannot even suspect anything wrong with a moderator closing a thread by trying their best to provoke one of the posters, as Dragan did, then I have no idea what I can show you.

Dragan chose to "accuse" me here of accusing him of steroid use...I simply corrected his misrepresentation of that, however, as far as I can recall you will find evidence of how this occurred here, on the other thread I posted (sorry, no broadband and I doubt if we will all live long enough for me to pinpont it with the connection I have):

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054999182

Dragan also chose to "accuse" me of "accusing" him of having an eating disorder. As far as I can recall you should have access to the entire unedited dialogue in my PMs which will clearly show, at least to any reasonable person, that my concern was sincere and not something I wished to make public in order to score points...as Dragan tried to do here earlier.

I was sincerely worried about another human being, even in spite of their determination to personally abuse me at the time...so cuff me and read me my rights!

Boston

Have you not again accused him of both having an eating disorder and using illegal substances in this thread?

aare

Dragan wrote:

Aare,

one of the main arguments against the Weightloss forum at the time was once again the Medical issue.And it still is.

Everything is covered in fitness from healthy eating to excercising..... if that does not work for someone then we are looking at all sorts of endocrinal and medical problems and that is not what we deal with on message boards.

So perhaps you would like to take your argument one step further and explain why you feel that personally abusing people with "all sorts of endocrinal and medical problems", instead of treating them with the basic respect and compassion, every human being owes to another, unless they agree with you opinions on command, IS "what we deal with on message boards"?

ecksor

aare wrote:

If you cannot even suspect anything wrong with a moderator closing a thread by trying their best to provoke one of the posters, as Dragan did, then I have no idea what I can show you.

I read the thread. It doesn't read to me the way you're describing it here.

Dragan also chose to "accuse" me of "accusing" him of having an eating disorder. As far as I can recall you should have access to the entire unedited dialogue in my PMs which will clearly show, at least to any reasonable person, that my concern was sincere and not something I wished to make public in order to score points...as Dragan tried to do here earlier.

Access to PMs isn't convenient and we don't look at them as a matter of routine.

ecksor

aare wrote:

So perhaps you would like to take your argument one step further and explain why you feel that personally abusing people with "all sorts of endocrinal and medical problems", instead of treating them with the basic respect and compassion, every human being owes to another, unless they agree with you opinions on command, IS "what we deal with on message boards"?

Hang on, where exactly is the personal abuse that you're referring to? Link to the specific post(s).

Do you see why running that into one long sentence is unclear? Do you accept that there's a reluctance to deal with anything that might be touching upon medical advice on the boards?