So, is overtaking illegal now????

MrPudding

BostonB wrote:

That what everybody is limited to no?

Well that's the problem isn't it? Some people overtake when they should not, while others don't when they could.

MrP

MrPudding

BostonB wrote:

Its all relative. Its more dangerous than not doing it, and arguably more dangerous as its less predictable than doing it one car at a time.

But why is it more dangerous than doinf it one at a time? If we are talking about four cars you are looking at 4 checks, 4 moves to the offside, 4 accelarations, 4 moves back and possibly 4 braking actions.

Assuming it is safe to do so, when taking them all at onece you have 1 check, 1 move to the offside, 1 acceleration and one move back in possibly with breaking.

If you timed 4 individual overtake manouvers and compare it to overtaking 4 cars at once you will find overtaking them all at once is faster and leaves you on the offside for less time.

Why is it less predictable? Anything another driver may do is as likely to happen whether you take the cars one at a time or all at once.

Overtaking several cars at a time requires mores concentration and planning but there is no reason for it to be more dangerous.

BostonB wrote:

Is overtaking more than one vehicle illegal?

No.

MrP

BostonB

MrPudding wrote:

...
If you timed 4 individual overtake manouvers and compare it to overtaking 4 cars at once you will find overtaking them all at once is faster and leaves you on the offside for less time.

Being on the offside isn't dangerous, if there's nothing coming and no junctions ahead, and you have clear line of sight and enough space to complete your overtaking.

MrPudding wrote:

...
Why is it less predictable? Anything another driver may do is as likely to happen whether you take the cars one at a time or all at once.

My experience is that if there's enough space to overtake a column of cars, and someone tries to overtake them all, some people will suddenly decide to prevent them, or suddenly get the notion to overtake at the same time pulling out in front, or simply closing the gaps. or pulling out in front of you, and taking a decade or two to overtake. Eating up all the clear road in the process. Perhaps when you that many dithery drivers all in close proximity there's a multiplier effect. I have no idea. But theres always some mupperty going on. A few times I've even seen someone overtaking someone already overtaking, by driving in the far side hardshoulder. Maybe your experience of lines of dithery cars has been different.

I feel much happier overtaking a line of trucks than I do a line dithery cars.

Esel

saobh_ie wrote:

... or doing a full on ABS style stop and getting back onto my own side of the road behind the vehicle.

...I’ve overtaken cars using the hard shoulder on the opposite side of the road, purely because it was there and kept me as far from the cars as possible.

Presume you don't actually stop before moving back in?

Sorry, using the opposite hard shoulder is just totally flaky, imo.

unkel

saobh_ie wrote:

I’ve overtaken cars using the hard shoulder on the opposite side of the road

I'm glad you brought that up. I've never overtaken cars on the opposite hard shoulder, but every time I did overtake many cars in the one go while (sometimes substantially) exceeding the speed limit was on national roads with wide hard shoulders. Using the opposite hard shoulder was always plan B: the escape route

Esel

unkel wrote:

...Using the opposite hard shoulder was always plan B: the escape route

One problem is the same hard shoulder is also the oncoming driver's instinctive escape route. You might be better running off the road on the opposite side (if 'safe' to do so) - based on the 'hierarchy of things to do' in an impending accident situation.

BostonB

esel wrote:

One problem is the same hard shoulder is also the oncoming driver's instinctive escape route. You might be better running off the road on the opposite side (if 'safe' to do so) - based on the 'hierarchy of things to do' in an impending accident situation.

There shouldn't be an oncoming driver.

unkel

esel wrote:

One problem is the same hard shoulder is also the oncoming driver's instinctive escape route

Another good point. Rest assured though that in all my multiple car (high speed) overtakings, there was no oncoming driver. Nor were there any side crossing roads

Edit: BostonB kinda beat me to it

Hotblack Desiato

esel wrote:

I use full headlights when riding a bike in the daytime - for visibility.

If by that you mean main beams, you're much better off using your dips.
Main beams annoy and dazzle other drivers, making their actions unpredictable
Main beams are parallel to the ground, making it impossible for other drivers to estimate your distance
And of course it's illegal and with good reason

There seems to be an increasing trend among some riders in Dublin of using main beams in daytime, or angling the dipped beam up so much it might as well be main beam. Ignorant, deluded, selfish w**kers in my opinion and they don't even have the courtesy to dip at night or when following another bike (usually much too closely as well.) At least in a car you can dip your mirror.

Duckjob

I'm freaked out by the number of dangerous loonies out there who couldn't perform a safe overtaking manouver to save their lives (or others).

I'm also freaked out by some of the posts here by posters who see think they can classify everything to do with road safety as a set of rules:

Not overtaking = safe
Overtaking > 2 cars = dangerous
100kph = safe
110kph = dangerous

Anyone who thinks they can say x is safe and y is dangerous, without actually seeing the set-up of the situation - the road, lighting, visibility, other traffic, power of car, etc, etc, is a potential menace on the road IMO.

Idleater

Duckjob wrote:

Anyone who thinks they can say x is safe and y is dangerous, without actually seeing the set-up of the situation - the road, lighting, visibility, other traffic, power of car, etc, etc, is a potential menace on the road IMO.

Good post!

and 100% correct.

Also, I would like to extend your post to say that anyone who claims they are a "good" or "experienced" driver is also an idiot. As, no one is above learning, because every situation that we come across on the roads is different to previous situations. We must all learn from every journey and every mistake that we make on every journey.

This is what is taught on Advanced Driving courses. That you are continuously learning. Neither of RoSPA instructors or Examiner, claimed to be excellent drivers, in fact they claimed that they were still only learning. I felt grossly inexperienced in light of their tuition, whereas previously, I had thought of myself as "experienced".

L.

Mitch Connor

nereid wrote:

Good post!

and 100% correct.

Also, I would like to extend your post to say that anyone who claims they are a "good" or "experienced" driver is also an idiot.

Rubbish.

While i agree you will never stop learning as a driver, that simply does not mean that no driver can class themselves as "good" or "experienced". Experience is something you gain over time, so someone driving for a long time will be experienced; the extent of that experience can be argued, but not the fact they ARE experienced. Driving is a skill, and skills are things that can be practiced and learnt - you CAN become a good driver, otherwise EVERY driver would be crap. It is obvious that not every driver is crap, so there HAS to be good drivers.

Just because someone says they are good, or experienced, does not mean they are an idiot. They could have an over inflated opinion of themselves, but they could also be telling the truth. they just might be a good driver. This does not mean they will never make a mistake, or that they can afford to stop learning, but that doesn't stop them being good.

Pherekydes

nereid wrote:

Also, I would like to extend your post to say that anyone who claims they are a "good" or "experienced" driver is also an idiot.

Good man yourself. Which are you: inexperienced or idiot? Either way, you shouldn't be on the road.

gyppo

Just a few points here:

I've no problem with a person overtaking multiple cars provided they have the power, intelligence, and machinery to do it quickly and safely.

Invariably though, many of those who choose to overtake multiple cars overestimate their ability to do so, and either:
1: Force oncoming traffic onto the hard shoulder and/or
2: Force the cars which they were attempting to overtake to brake suddenly and make room for him/her

All too often, its some tulip in a 1.3l standard car that attempts this. If you are going to overtake a number of cars safely, you need something that responds rapidly, not something with a 5 mile per fortnight acceleration figure.

MrPudding

gyppo wrote:

All too often, its some tulip in a 1.3l standard car that attempts this. If you are going to overtake a number of cars safely, you need something that responds rapidly, not something with a 5 mile per fortnight acceleration figure.

Agreed, but it seems that some posters believe that as some idiots attempt it when they shouldn't, or perhaps because they can't do it themselves, that no one can do it safely.

MrP

GTC

What was said at the outset is obviously not illegal, let's stay on the thread here folks. Overtaking a line of cars is often necessary, and if you do it in good time intelligently then you should have nothing to worry about.

Some people on irish roads can't stand seeing better drivers do something that they themselves (pardon the choice of words) don't have the stones to do. If you did it on a good road and you could see that you had sufficent time in which to do it, then there is no problem, just jealousy.

GTC

Oh and I do agree completely with MrP's last comment. gyppo is also correct, the amount of underpowered cars attempting these moves is amazing, they have neither the acceleration or the dexterity for many of their manoevers. I have no problem with people in big cars with 1.8 and over engines overtaking a string of cars, their engines are nearly always up to the job. After that, its their ability to use the road and watch the conditions that determine the success of their actions.

GTC

unkel wrote:

I'm glad you brought that up. I've never overtaken cars on the opposite hard shoulder, but every time I did overtake many cars in the one go while (sometimes substantially) exceeding the speed limit was on national roads with wide hard shoulders. Using the opposite hard shoulder was always plan B: the escape route

Now that is horribly dangerous. You must minimise the movement of the car in overtaking, no quick turns and stay as close to the central line as you can.

Seriously mate, if I saw you do that, you'd be chased and done for dangerous driving.

Wow...

And no, it is not dangerous to stay close to the central line, its called advanced defensive driving, Lesson 1 if I remember correctly

Marcus.Aurelius

Well said, opposite hard shoulder use in overtaking is lunacy.

BrianD3

Now that is horribly dangerous

Did you even read unkels post? He's talking about planning an escape route if something happens during the overtake. The opposite hard shoulder could well be a valid place to escape to if say one of the cars you're overtaking decides he wants to swerve to his right while you're alongside him.

Idleater

Slow coach wrote:

Good man yourself. Which are you: inexperienced or idiot? Either way, you shouldn't be on the road.

I may be both, but I am most certainly not overconfident, I know my limitations, and I know the limitations of the machine I am driving - be it car, van, motorcycle, many of which could change hourly.

In that respect, I would hope that I am not only less of a danger to others on the road than somebody who thinks that they are a good driver, drives like they think they know what they are doing, and are in fact a danger to others on the road.

So, in that respect, my Silver RoSPA certificate says that yes, I am okay on the road and probably (statistically) less of a danger on the road. But, I am inexperienced, because I only have 8 years driving experience, and I am an idiot, because I make mistakes and misjudge things that I know afterwards I should have seen earlier etc.

L.

Marcus.Aurelius

BrianD3 wrote:

Did you even read unkels post? He's talking about planning an escape route if something happens during the overtake. The opposite hard shoulder could well be a valid place to escape to if say one of the cars you're overtaking decides he wants to swerve to his right while you're alongside him.

Somehow I doubt a Garda would care what you think. If he says its dangerous driving, then he can arrest you. What's your problem? It's 100% illegal and far more dangerous than ordinary speeding!

Imagine if someone came out of a junction! Never mind that you have to swing out so far and so far back in after the overtaking! Thats really dangerous driving, and GTC rightly said you'd be done for dangerous driving. Hell, I'd give a statement if I saw you do it.

OldmanMondeo

Anyone who claims that overtaken more than one car is safe, needs there heads examined. Over taking, even one car is dangerous, you may be able to see the road miles ahead, but you can not see what the person you are passing is going to do. Motorcyclists will tell you the amount of times cars have pulled across last minute without looking and/or indicating is criminal. Over taking several cars inreases the danger / risks.
The only thing you can do when overtaking, with regard to the danger, is to try and establish the danget and then reduce the risk.

Marcus.Aurelius

OldmanMondeo wrote:

Over taking several cars inreases the danger / risks.
The only thing you can do when overtaking, with regard to the danger, is to try and establish the danget and then reduce the risk.

Sigh, that's been said already by GTC and others. Overtaking a string of cars is safe if you do it correctly. Geez, this thread is getting long and pointless

BrianD3

maoleary wrote:

Somehow I doubt a Garda would care what you think. If he says its dangerous driving, then he can arrest you. What's your problem? It's 100% illegal and far more dangerous than ordinary speeding!

Imagine if someone came out of a junction! Never mind that you have to swing out so far and so far back in after the overtaking! Thats really dangerous driving, and GTC rightly said you'd be done for dangerous driving. Hell, I'd give a statement if I saw you do it.

Another one who hasn't read the posts properly. I'll make it simple for you. You are overtaking. As you come alongside the target, he swerves to his right for whatever reason. Braking to get in behind him will not avoid a collision. Do you
a) collide with him
b) utilise the hard shoulder to miss him.

GTC has made some good points in this thread but his last response to unkel was a load of crap.

OldmanMondeo

maoleary wrote:

Sigh, that's been said already by GTC and others. Overtaking a string of cars is safe if you do it correctly. Geez, this thread is getting long and pointless

Thionk you might have missed my point. To many people will think that overtaking 1,2,3 whatever amount of cars is safe, they will then fall into a false sense of security. If they start thinking of what Dangers are there and view the overtaking this way, they will make the overtaking safer, but it is still dangerous.

fletch

Yes this thread is getting tiresome now. I don't think anyone can dispute that overtaking is dangerous. The longer you spend overtaking (time exposed the danger), the greater the risk. However in that manner, if some Joe Soap overtakes one car in his 1.4 Golf and it takes him 30 seconds as he dawdles past, does that make it less dangerous than me overtaking 2+ cars but it also taking me 30secs?
Walking is dangerous but we all do it. Walking across the road is more dangerous but we all do it.

Marcus.Aurelius

The oncoming car is supposed to use the hard shoulder to avoid YOU. If you have any intelligence you would not have overtaken where you could not see far enough to complete the operation. If the cars are too close together for you to slot in, then you shouldn't go for it unless there is sufficient time and clear road to complete it.

For God's sake its ridiculously dangerous to use the far hard shoulder. Its illegal and constitutes dangerous driving. And damn it don't be telling people otherwise. Everyone I spoke to at lunch time at the station agreed they'd prosecute anyone they saw doing it. Its illegal, full stop.

BrianD3

As regards overtaking multiple vehicles. I do this quite often but not so much anymore as I've had a couple of experiences where drivers have sped up to make life difficult for me. This is a big danger I see with multiple overtakes. Begruding w*nkers who have a problem with anyone making better progress or being more decisive than them. Same sort of idiots probably sit in the overtaking lane of a M-way and thinking it's their job to enforce the speed limit.

On a couple of occasions I have overtaken little convoys which included Garda cars dawdling along in their midst. There are an awful lot of paranoid eejits on the road who sh1t themselves when they see a Garda car, slow right down and won't overtake making for an even slower convoy.

To those saying that multiple overtakes are too dangerous - do you also apply this principle to dual carriageways. You have no oncoming traffic but you have most of the other other dangers associated with overtaking. And in fact median crossing points on these roads can be a real danger point. I have seen as many near misses at these as I have on single carriageway roads. One scenario that I regulalry see on the Downs dual carriageway (Mullingar) - you're in the overtaking lane overtaking a few cars. Up ahead is a driver waiting to turn right onto your carriageway from the median. What does he do? Pulls straight out in front of you and uses the overtaking lane as an acceleration lane, forcing you to brake and forcing the cars in the LH lane to either brake or else "undertake" him. Sometimes two cars will pull out from teh median in quick succession with one going for the LH lane and the other going for the RH lane.

BrianD3

maoleary wrote:

The oncoming car is supposed to use the hard shoulder to avoid YOU.

THERE IS NO ONCOMING CAR. READ THE POSTS!