So, is overtaking illegal now????

Seth Brundle

astraboy wrote:

I dont think hes saying 4 singe overtaking moves are dangerous, but in the case where you can pass out 4 cars at once or seperately, it would be perferrable to take advantage of the opportunity to pass them out all at once if it can be done safely. The process of checking the other side of the road, accelerating, pulling out and pulling back in again needs to be done once. Its a basic reduction of risk if you can view far enough ahead to give yourself the time needed to complete the manover.

At least someone can follow my scribblings!

GreeBo

kbannon wrote:

You on the other hand are applying blanket statements across the board saying that it is better to do it all in one manouvre.

Actually Im saying the exact opposite, Im saying its always safer to do it in multiple manouvres...

astraboy

GreeBo wrote:

but thats just tough luck!
You cant decide to overtake multiple cars becuase if you dont you might be stuck there for an extra 5 minutes. Thats putting impatience above safety.

As I asked someone earlier and was ignored, what way do you drive on a motorway?
Do you stay in the overtaking lane until you cant see any cars in the driving lane or do yo move in and out as you overtake each car/group of cars?

Maybe you took my point worng. If I can do the overtaking in one go why not? It will give the driver behind me opprotunity to pass out at the next straight. And what about attempting to pull into the middle of a convoy of 4 cars? Not really easy. I rarely drive on motorways but my lane disiplince is rather good, I will only go into the overtaking lane to overtake then pull in when it is safe to do so. If I need to over take more vehicles further on in the journey I will repeat the manouver. However, motorway driving and driving on national 2 lane roads are very different in their overtaking procedure. For one motorway overtaking does not involve the risk of oncoming traffic!:)

Seth Brundle

Gwynston wrote:

Often, passing 4 close-together car takes no longer than passing one big artic. Surely you're not saying that passing those 4 cars individually is safer than passing one artic?

Yes and no - when passing 4 youo may have further to travel but you will also (assuming there is a decent gap between the 4) have someone to pull in if you need to abort the overtaking manouvre. When passing an artic, pulling in left to abort isn't recommended!

Seth Brundle

GreeBo wrote:

Actually Im saying the exact opposite, Im saying its always safer to do it in multiple manouvres...

Apols - that was what i meant to type. Post edited.

Esel

I agree with both sides of the argument - that of the Big-Endians and that of the Little-Endians. Now can both sides please STFU before my egg goes cold?

GreeBo

Gwynston wrote:

Well the opposition is saying that it is safer to overtake all 4 at once, so long as it is safe to do so because it takes less time. A self-enforcing argument, see?

ahh but who defines safe?

Gwynston wrote:

But seriously, the point is that if it is safe (all things considered) to pass all 4 at once, then obviously it's not going to be safer to pull in and make 4 passes. That's the point you would have to concede...

Actually no, I think its safer to decide if its ok to overtake from in my own lane than it is from the wrong lane and already overtaking somone.
This is the crux of it. You make a decision at car 1 and live or die by that decision until you have passed car 4, I make 4 much smaller, easier decisions at each car.

Gwynston wrote:

Often, passing 4 close-together car takes no longer than passing one big artic. Surely you're not saying that passing those 4 cars individually is safer than passing one artic?

Well thats an edge case, the cars would have to be fairly close together which is stupid dangerous, in that situation I would consider it less dangerous to pass them all than to pass each one and force my way in.

Naturally this should never occur as each car should have ample space between them and this is the situation we (at least me!) are discussing, but this is Ireland so its probably a 50/50 chance!

Then again I have pulled out to overtake a bus/artic before only to discover a car in front of the bus/artic that was invisible to me until I am forced to pass it...

Gwynston

kbannon wrote:

Yes and no - when passing 4 youo may have further to travel but you will also (assuming there is a decent gap between the 4) have someone to pull in if you need to abort the overtaking manouvre. When passing an artic, pulling in left to abort isn't recommended!

Obviously, yes!
But if it's not necessary to pull in between each car, why would it be safer to do so?

GreeBo

kbannon wrote:

Apols - that was what i meant to type. Post edited.

NP, now I have to decide to edit mine or not...ah screw it, its friday.

Seth Brundle

@Gwynston - Because you always have to be prepared to abort.

GreeBo

Gwynston wrote:

Obviously, yes!
But if it's not necessary to pull in between each car, why would it be safer to do so?

Becuase you have the ability to reasses the current situation from the comfort of your own lane.

Seth Brundle

Anyhow, shall we agree to disagree and promise to each other to only overtake when its really really really safe and then follow esel's advice and STFU so eggs can be eaten?

(i.e. locked?)

astraboy

I think it comes down to the individual situation. On a board we will never see eye to eye because we are all imagining a different sitiation in our heads(based on personal experience we are probably picturing the road we normally drive). It comes down to driver judgement at the end of the day and what makes you as a driver on the road feel most comfortable. Applying blanket statments is not going to do any good.

GreeBo

astraboy wrote:

However, motorway driving and driving on national 2 lane roads are very different in their overtaking procedure. For one motorway overtaking does not involve the risk of oncoming traffic!:)

Exactly! Its much safer to continue overtaking on a motorway but we dont do it, I dont see why different rules should apply on a more dangerous road.


Its Friday, its sunny, enough of this tomfoolerly!

whosedaddy?

And now for a bit of added controversy...

If you decide not to overtake the 4 cars but only 2 car in total (in 2 seperate manouvers).
Your car adds another car to the "convoy".
So the fast car from behind may attempt to overtake 5 cars and if he gets it wrong he might just push you off the road in an attempt to avoid the head on collision....

But you couldn't know that when you decided not to overtake all 4 cars...

Just to illustrate that you'll never know what will happen and that even after careful consideration of all possible events (you can think of) there is still an elememt of unforseen risk - which you can never eliminate unless you stay in bed and leave your car in the garage....

Gwynston

OK, so does anyone have a comment to make about my other point:

Gwynston wrote:

As a side point, isn't it a law in some US states that if you're driving below the limit and have 3 or more cars held up behind you, you're obliged to pull over and let them past? And it's enforced by the police too.

whosedaddy?

in some US states you'll probably get shot by the driver behind you :-)

gyppo

Gwynston wrote:

gyppo and GreeBo are arguing that you should never have a target to overtake all 4 cars, only one at a time can be considered. They're not going to change their narrow minded POV, so just leave them to it....

What a load of Balls!!
I never once said that you should never have a target to overtake 4 cars at once. If you took the trouble to read my earlier post its pretty evident that I have no problem with it, provided its done without endangering others.
Maybe if you took the time to read the posts correctly, you might not form a half-arsed and incorrect opinion of others.

mike65

RobAMerc I hope you're happy now!

Tis a pity there are no Advanced Driving Tutors in this thread, they'd have much to contribute I think.

Mike.

gyppo

mike65 wrote:

Tis a pity there are no Advanced Driving Tutors in this thread, they'd have much to contribute I think

I thought we had!!:D

Gwynston

gyppo wrote:

What a load of Balls!!

Thanks for putting that so succinctly... :rolleyes:

Apologies for mixing up you and GreeBo - I did read all the posts, but reading this whole thread in one go left my head spinning!

All I was trying to do was point out the reciprocating nature of the arguments on both sides and lumped together yours and GreeBo's arguments which seemed to be saying it's always safer to overtake one car at a time.
Sorry if I misquoted you!

Hey, it's Friday and sunny - let's all chill! I'm going home to have a nice cold beer on the patio, and I promise not to overtake anyone on the way home, OK!

Seth Brundle

Im leaving the last word on this with MrPudding!

MrPudding wrote:

GreeBo wrote:

Becuase you have the ability to reasses the current situation from the comfort of your own lane.

Assessing the situation from your own lane is flawed. It is perfectly acceptable to move to the offside lane to gather more information about whether or not the overtake is on.

This is why, according to Roadcraft you do not start to accelerate in your own lane. You have gathered information in your own lane, you must do this, but it is not the whole story. If and when it is safe to do so you can move to the offside, you do this in order to gather more information, this is information that you simply could not get from you own lane.

At this point you do not even need to indicate as you are not commiting to an overtake, you are still travelling a the same speed. You are merely in the offside position to gather further information.

If you decide the overtake is not on, you pull back in. If it is on, indicate your intention and proceed with the overtake. During the overtake you should be constantly gathering and analyzing information which you use to decide what you are going to do next.
Taken from Wikepedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadcraft

Roadcraft is the UK's police handbook that outlines a system of car and motorcycle control breaking into five phases:

1. Information (receiving of information from the outside world by observation, and giving of information by use of signals such as direction indicators, headlamp flashes, and horn);
2. Position (positioning on the road for visibility);
3. Speed (appropriate speed for the hazard being approached, always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road);
4. Gear (single gear change to the correct gear for the chosen speed);
5. Acceleration (accelerating clear of the hazard).

This is the system that I, and probably most advanced drivers or riders follow. I am in Dublin so don't have my copy to hand, the book goes into a lot more detail.
Number 2 allows for changing position in order to gain visibility. There are 2 reasons for having a particular position on the road. They are safety and view. You may compromise view for safety but never safety for view.

One of the first things you learn is that the whole road is there for you to use. There is no right or wrong side. Assuming it if safe to do so, there is no problem with moving to the offside for a better view. I never make a decision to overtake based on the information I have gather from “the comfort of my own lane,” I will not make a potentially life threatening decision based on half the information available to me.

It is by definition not dangerous to be on the offside if it is safe to be there. I know this is a bit of a circular argument but if you have assessed the road and it is safe to move to the offside then it is safe to be there. Now, you do not move to the offside and then decide, “Right, I am here until I am finished my maneuver regardless of what happens.” The information phase overlaps all other phases:


Diagram showing the five phases of the System of Car / Motorcycle Control, as explained in Roadcraft

If at any point it is no longer safe to be there you return to the nearside. This is less likely to be the case as you will have made you decision to be there using information taken from both side of the road, therefore you have a fuller picture. If you decide to overtake from the comfort of your own lane and you commit to doing so, you may discover during your maneuver that something you did not spot from your comfort zone makes it not safe to be there.

I obviously cannot change you mind on this but please, at the very least, get a hold of the Roadcraft book and have a read. The guys that wrote the system really know what they are doing, as do the guys that some of the other posters and myself train with.

I am sorry but if they believe it is sometimes safer to overtake multiple vehicles at once rather than individually, then I believe them. I am not blindly believing them either, I have looked at the reasoning and made a decision. And I know it is right.

MrP

Right this thread seems to have run its course (with the added bonus of wrecking peoples heads!).
Lets lock it and all be happy!