Letter in the Independent

Giblet

pretty*monster wrote:

You're right, we should all sit around and feel bad for the girl and be sure and only say nice things about her because as we all know ones problems are never one's own responsibility to solve.

Strawman bollox frankly, I think having some consideration for a split second and probably realising that just because someone has problems you don't doesn't mean she's weak and is looking for attention or whatever rigmarole that'll make you feel better about not caringt and not going on rants about how societies and social occasions will solve all her problems. But who cares about other peoples problems.

You don't know anything about her, but yeah "we should all sit around all day" roll ****ing eyes. You know that's not what I meant at all. Grow up.

And Grimes, saying "I feel sorry for the girl" and then spouting that crap is akin to saying "I'm not racist...but."

Riamfada

Giblet wrote:

And Grimes, saying "I feel sorry for the girl" and then spouting that crap is akin to saying "I'm not racist...but."

Please bother to read the thread?

You will also see me say I was in the same situation. We all have our problems and we deal with them. Social , financially or otherwise.

And not solve all her problems. Help people make social links in UCD. Thats the point of this thread or have you missed that

m1ke

Well by your logic then everyone who comes to UCD is isolated.

I said 'some individuals', I didn't say 'all individuals'. Read more carefully!

Giblet

Grimes wrote:

Please bother to read the thread?

You will also see me say I was in the same situation. We all have our problems and we deal with them. Social , financially or otherwise.

And not solve all her problems. Help people make social links in UCD. Thats the point of this thread or have you missed that

No, I'm saying that what works for you doesn't necessarily work for everyone, and that by suggesting that'll solve her problems is short sighted.

Blowfish

Tan Princess wrote:

I suggest class reps in arts actually bother to organise class parties for a start.

Going to a class party would be a terrible idea for someone who feels the way she does.

Riamfada

Giblet wrote:

No, I'm saying that what works for you doesn't necessarily work for everyone, and that by suggesting that'll solve her problems is short sighted.

Im not suggesting that will solve all her problems. Im suggesting its a way to meet people in the UCD enviroment. She never stated in her letter that she even tried. Her "problems" are not for the UCd forum nor are they stated in her letter. Alot of posters here are assuming she has "problems" which is totally speculative and off topic

Sangre

pfd and giblet banend for personal abuse.

humbert

Blowfish wrote:

Going to a class party would be a terrible idea for someone who feels the way she does.

I'm not sure about that. It would have to be organised in such a way as to encourage people to chat to people to people they don't already know. Assigning people to teams for a table quiz for example, but I think things like that could really help.

Sangre

Giblet wrote:

You're being petty, "there you are", it's all sorted that easily. You don't need activities, you need people you can relate to. You also have to take into account personal stuff like cash flow, home conditions etc etc. There never is a quick fix. You're just being an inconsiderate **** who can't relate to other peoples problems.

And how can UCD possibly help problems like cashflow or home conditions? Some people get drawn the short straw and can't make friends in college. Well, life is a bitch sometimes. Unless you can give examples of how UCD can change her personal situations then I'm all ears.

Or were you just looking for an outcry of sympathy by anonymous internet posters to a person no-one know and that she will probably never read. This isn't PI.

You can't reply so I win by default.

pretty*monster

Giblet wrote:

Strawman bollox frankly, I think having some consideration for a split second and probably realising that just because someone has problems you don't doesn't mean she's weak and is looking for attention or whatever rigmarole that'll make you feel better about not caringt and not going on rants about how societies and social occasions will solve all her problems. But who cares about other peoples problems.

Who called her weak? Who said she was looking for attention?
All anyone has said is that there are a plethora of avenues within which to make friends in ucd, and that the solutions to this girls problems lie within herself if she needs an extra hand helping herself there are advisers,chaplains, councillors, and a psychiatrist free of charge on campus, that doesn't mean that it'll be easy for her to solve her problems (I'm not presuming to know what her problem is, what I am certain of is that it is her problem to solve), but that's life and sometimes life is hard.

Blowfish

humbert wrote:

I'm not sure about that. It would have to be organised in such a way as to encourage people to chat to people to people they don't already know. Assigning people to teams for a table quiz for example, but I think things like that could really help.

Well something like a table quiz maybe, but if it was your stereotypical booze up it would be awful for her.

humbert

Blowfish wrote:

Well something like a table quiz maybe, but if it was your stereotypical booze up it would be awful for her.

True.

katarin

I was in a similar situation as Sarah Brady for most of first year, but in three years, everythings changed. Most people who come here without knowing anyone will find out (if they stick with it) that because of the size of the place, it takes at least a few months to settle into the sort of social comfort that people who go to smaller colleges might enjoy from Day 1. The best thing - probably the only practical thing- that can be done is to just let it be known that it does get better: classes get smaller, you'll see the same people day in/ day out and eventually you WILL be forced into some social situation - but it takes time. It's not an easy, or nice solution, but its the only one I can think of.

FionnMatthew

humbert wrote:

She's saying that it's possible to spend a long time in UCD without making friends.

I think that's a good thing about UCD. You can make friends if you want them, but you don't have to if you don't want to. You can achieve a measure of anonymity here too, and sometimes you need that.

humbert wrote:

Some people, including me at times, are not particularly sociable. They don't try to make friends, however what is significant about UCD is how easy it is to be a student here and never talk to people. While it may be in some people's nature to shy away from talking to people it's not healthy, it can lead to depression and nobody's to blame.

There's nothing unhealthy about that. One needs to balance company with solitude. A person who cannot live with themselves is never going to learn how to live with others.

FionnMatthew

funktastic wrote:

Well I think it is in the college's interest to make sure people don't feel excluded.
If the person is in first arts you would only have one tutorial in each subject every two weeks, that isn't an awful lot.

The college should not attempt to force people together in order to cultivate a community spirit. A community spirit is something that grows naturally. You can't create it.

I went to a college with a class of 25 and 7 hours tuition a day. It was like a hothouse. You never got any privacy.

UCD's strength is the voluntary nature of its social atmosphere. One may elect to pursue only as much society as one wants in UCD, and privacy is respected. It should not change for people who are inept at socialising.

FionnMatthew

Youswine wrote:

...The fact is, no matter who's fault it is, that people like this who have more difficulty than others in socialising, have just as much right to be catered for as all of you great people who wouldn't know sensitivity if it slapped you in the face....


I don't care if you guys think 'Well I was fine, so why should other people get special treatment'. Bull****. People are different from you. And they deserve to be catered for too. It's no wonder the rate of suicide among young people is so high in this country when you see responses like these to a letter like this...

Nobody deserves to be "catered for".

My responsibility is to be as nice as I can to whoever I meet.

I can't be nice to someone if I've never met them.

I can't meet them if they never put themselves in a situation where I could meet them.

I can't read the minds of people who never socialise.

Nobody deserves to be catered for. It is the sole responsibility of every soul to live their own life. I can respond to someone in understanding and compassion, but only if they reach out first. Anything beyond that is unsustainable.

FionnMatthew

Giblet wrote:

I think having some consideration for a split second and probably realising that just because someone has problems

What problems? Beyond the very elementary problem of not trying to socialise at all, and besides the problem that her parents want her to do something she isn't interested in, she doesn't mention any problems.

It sounds as if, in terms of exterior situation, she's grand. There're people in far worse situations.

Giblet wrote:

doesn't mean she's weak

Nah. I wouldn't say weak. Lazy perhaps. Or of an unhealthily self-sympathetic disposition.

Giblet wrote:

is looking for attention

Frankly, she was doing that. She wrote to a national paper. She could have just approached a counselor.

Giblet wrote:

that'll make you feel better about not caringt

It doesn't make me feel better. I'm saddened by it all. That doesn't change the truth. There's isn't really anything we can do about a reclusive lonely person.

Look at that again, shall we?

A reclusive lonely person.
One or the other attribute would be easily remediable.

A reclusive person? "Fine! You want to be on your own, and I won't stop you. Win win situation!"

A lonely person? "Great! I'm glad you told me! Let's do something about it."

A reclusive lonely person? "....Wait now. You want to be on your own, but you.... don't want to be on your own? And wait again... I don't actually know any of this, because I don't know who you are, because you've never even been in a situation where I could have met you. Oh well, I suppose I'm not even speaking to you. You're... not even there at all. Oh dear. I really don't know what to do!"

Giblet wrote:

But who cares about other peoples problems."

Let's imagine a person with a similar problem.

"My name is Gary. I want to behave like an asshole, but I also want people to like me. Why is the world such that if I behave like an asshole, people will dislike me? Woe is me." and so forth.

I'm sure that most people will be willing to see that Gary's problem is not exterior to himself. Gary's problem is not the kind of problem that anybody else can solve. This is an instance of "other people's problems" being the kind of "other people's problems" that it is, frankly, rather a waste of time 'caring' about. We can sympathise, and offer advice. And, in this case, the advice should be of the "you have to change things yourself" type, and also of the "you have to want to improve" type.

Sarah's problem is quite similar, with the added difficulty that nobody is ever going to know about it to care about it if she doesn't actually communicate her problem to somebody else.

How dare you UCD? Not care about a problem you don't even know about.

mloc

The girl in question obviously has personal issues relating to social interactions.

It is easy to get to know people in college, if you make the effort. It would appear to me that this girl has general social interaction problems that are merely manifesting themselves in college.

You can meet people in your course, in societies, sports clubs, interest events and even political parties. If you are from Dublin undoubtably you'll know people in UCD before you get there. If not, living on campus is a great way to get to know people.

I might be lucky in that I am very socially out going and have many friends and associates involved in many courses, years and societies in UCD as well as a core group of friends in my own course. I would put this down to my own personality and not forced interactions created by the atmosphere in UCD. I would imagine if I started off in 1st year with an attitude of avoiding people I could probably have done that up to now, althought it would have been difficult.

In short, it is this unfoturnate girls own personal issues that are the problem here and in no way UCD. Quite simply, she needs help, professional help.

FionnMatthew

humbert wrote:

It's unfortunate and it wouldn't hurt for people to make an effort to chat to someone in their class that seems to spend a lot of time by themselves. ... The environment encourages people to feel comfortable paying little attention to someone next to them in a lecture theatre for example.

Some people want to be left alone. Some people are reclusive for a reason. It would be a violation of those people's personal space to start seeking out people who don't socialise a lot. You have to respect people's privacy too.

I know that in some of my classes I wouldn't want to socialise with a lot of the people in my class.

Jonny Arson

I am about to bang my head on my laptop repeatedly here at the cliched, ignorant, ''lets bury our heads in the sand'' responses on this thread.... bring on the quote wars!

pretty*monster wrote:

and that the solutions to this girls problems lie within herself

Do you know this girl personally?
You judging this girl on a letter where you don't know this girl and have absolutely f**k all appreciation of her personality and character

mloc wrote:

The girl in question obviously has personal issues relating to social interactions.

Again, do you know this girl personally?
Like pretty*monster you are judging someone's personality and character on a letter

mloc wrote:

It is easy to get to know people in college, if you make the effort.

Firstly, as I stated earlier in the thread from my experience that isn't true. Great to see another cliched response in this thread.

Secondly, where did this girl mention that she made no effort to talk or get to know people? Can you refer in the letter where she says this? If you are making another presumption do you honestly and realistically think someone would have the sophistication and the urgency to write a letter to a newspaper about a problem like this after making no effort to get to know anyone?

mloc wrote:

It would appear to me that this girl has general social interaction problems that are merely manifesting themselves in college.

So if someone can't fit into a massive and informal college like our beloved UCD they immediately must have social interaction problems? Buuulllllsh!t!

For prety*monster and mloc - Funny, I know people who said to me they hated UCD and rarely talked to anyone in their 3/4 years. ''Oooh obviously they're a weirdos with social interactions problems'' I can hear one say... guess what! These people are some of the most outgoing, friendly, life and soul people I have ever met!! - Maybe just for moment can both of you please realize everything is not so black/white and realize that UCD's traits often can impose isolation and lonliness on people

mloc wrote:

In short, it is this unfoturnate girls own personal issues that are the problem here and in no way UCD. Quite simply, she needs help, professional help.

I'm just not going to bother..........

Jonny Arson

FionnMatthew wrote:

Beyond the very elementary problem of not trying to socialise at all

Have you been following this girl around for every moment night and day during her tenure in UCD?
How do you know she has made no effort to socialize at all? Can you point out to me where in the letter she states this?

FionnMatthew wrote:

Nah. I wouldn't say weak. Lazy perhaps. Or of an unhealthily self-sympathetic disposition.

If said the 4 letter word of what I think of you after *that* comment I'd get perm banned.... keep up the good rep!

FionnMatthew wrote:

She wrote to a national paper. She could have just approached a counselor.

Yes she did write to national newspaper, she feels there is an important issue that must be brought out into the public domain and she did that brilliantly
Again Fionn, how do you know she hasn't approached a councellor or a welfare officer? Where in the letter did she say she hasn't done this?
I would just hate to think people are continuing to make generic persumptions

FionnMatthew wrote:

"My name is Gary. I want to behave like an asshole, but I also want people to like me. Why is the world such that if I behave like an asshole, people will dislike me? Woe is me." and so forth.

What has your ''Gary'' character and his story got to with this girls' issue and a prominent issue that happens year on year in UCD?

FionnMatthew wrote:

Sarah's problem is quite similar, with the added difficulty that nobody is ever going to know about it to care about it if she doesn't actually communicate her problem to somebody else.

Oh here we go.... yeah similar thing of course Fionn! :rolleyes:
Firstly, UCD knows there are students feeling isolated and like **** out in this place, they know too many students are dropping out as a result of this. IT'S A PROBLEM!!!
Secondly, please Fionn point out to me in the letter WHERE HAS SHE STATED HSE HASN'T GONE TO SEE SOMEONE OUT IN THE COLLEGE? :rolleyes:

How dare you UCD? Not care about a problem you don't even know about.

The arrogant, ignorant, cliched, ''we're happy, we don't give a f**k'', ''it's all her fault'' attitdues prevailing on this thread would back that up soundly. Wait a go guys, you're doing a fine job of backing up UCD's reputation of being the arsehole college of Ireland :rolleyes:

hullaballoo

People are entitled to draw inferences from others' behaviour. For the most part, I would term the inferences drawn by Fionn and p*m astute. It's nothing to do with a lack of sympathy for her feelings, but more a lack of understanding of her behaviour.

Many people find UCD daunting at first. I did when I was in first year, and I was in a class of 50. We have most of us gotten over that, though. We have joined clubs and made an effort to get to know people. That's how any big university works.

Aside from those issues, the other posters have rightly made the point that - even if it is a characteristic of UCD that people feel lonely - there's nothing that can be legitimately or practically be done about it, other than that which is already being done i.e., facilitating the activities of societies and clubs.

I mean, I could be missing something here. What do you think could be done to get Sarah and her likes to be less lonely?

mloc

Jonny Arson wrote:

I'm just not going to bother..........

I'm sticking to the opinions outlined in my original post. Yes, surely in first year it can at times be difficult to connect with people in a new environment, but over time a socially functioning human being with nearly ANY interests or lifestyle can find similar individuals with which to fraternise. UCD is diverse, and as such provides this opportunity.

If this girl has become so introverted that she dreads the self-created awkwardness that she speaks of, then I maintain that yes, she needs professional help in the form of a qualified counsellor.

FionnMatthew

Jonny Arson wrote:

Secondly, please Fionn point out to me in the letter WHERE HAS SHE STATED HSE HASN'T GONE TO SEE SOMEONE OUT IN THE COLLEGE? :rolleyes:

and

Jonny Arson wrote:

Have you been following this girl around for every moment night and day during her tenure in UCD?

How do you know she has made no effort to socialize at all? Can you point out to me where in the letter she states this?

Ok. There are a number of sentences in the letter itself which suggest this to me.

Sometimes I would go a whole day without talking to one single person. Not one conversation.

other times I am worried that I will have to talk, finding it easier saying nothing, yet all the more depressing.

I know that my class don't dislike me; they just don't know me to like me. I do know that if I decided to leave tomorrow I most certainly would not be missed. No one would notice.

This one in particular:

I sometimes wish someone would make conversation with me and

is of the kind of "I want friends, but I want everyone else to do the work for me" attitude that suggests to me that the only conversations she does have in UCD are the instances where someone else asks her for a light, or excuses themselves when they want to sit down the other side of her, etc. It just doesn't sound as if she's trying very hard. Not only does she not mention trying to socialise in UCD, but she actually says things that lead us to believe she does no such thing.

I think it's ludicruous, frankly. Of all places I've studied, UCD is one of the places where it is almost impossible not to make friends, unless you're dead set against it. In the queue for registration, I had to talk to a guy behind me in order to sort out where we had to go. It wasn't a big conversation, but I still know his name, and I still see him every so often, even though he's in a different faculty.
Going to class in first year made it impossible for me to avoid meeting people. In my experience, people in UCD are of the kind of manner that one person can talk to someone they don't know at all quite casually, and quite spontaneously. There's no barrier of stigma around the social horizon of each different person. You can't avoid people in UCD, they're everywhere, and for the most part, they're very friendly.
This girl could literally do anything and pick up a few friends by osmosis. If she took up smoking she'd end up with a bunch of regulars who she started off by just seeing in the same place every day.

You have to avoid people in UCD if you don't want to make acquaintances. Acquaintances are only a stone's thrown away from becoming friends. It's this kind of information that the girl needs to hear, not useless, stultifying sympathy, with little or no advice attached to it.

Come to think of it, she probably has a few acquaintances in UCD already, but is so caught up in her loneliness fantasy she won't even recognise them.

Jonny Arson wrote:

If said the 4 letter word of what I think of you after *that* comment I'd get perm banned.... keep up the good rep!

I stand by it though. The bit about the overly self-sympathetic disposition.

She's not depressed. She's just feeling sorry for herself. Read the letter again. Depressed people don't write letters like that. Depressed people don't write letters at all. She's caught up in the bittersweet fiction of her own foisted-upon-her loneliness, and she wants other people to jump on board too, which would convince her that she's right, that it is a real situation, and that she's right to feel as if the world's not fair, to blame a faceless, remote institution or a faceless, remote world-totality which put her in this situation, for things that she's actually responsible for.

Sure, she mentions suicide in it. Were you ever a teenager? She's crafty. It's a little sign she dropped in to show how serious she is about it. Look:

I have an idea of what some might consider.
I have never really thought seriously about it but I can see why so many do. Suicide is a cry for help, a cry that can only be answered when it's too late.

She started off trying to hint about it, and then decided that she hadn't been overt enough, and clarified what she'd been talking about. And just look at that "suicide is a cry for help" line. Suicide isn't always a cry for help. She isn't thinking about suicide. She's thinking about the effect mentioning suicide will have on people, about melting people's hearts with the sadness of the story of her life.

I think it's quite manipulative really. I knew a girl in school who used to leave suicide notes around everywhere, so that people would pay attention to her. Everyone was really concerned for a month, but it wore off.

People who are actually contemplating suicide don't write letters to national papers advertising the fact. They'll find it very hard to talk about it, and the suicide, or the attempt, will normally be the first sign that something is amiss.

To be honest, the way this letter was written is kind of juvenile really. It's the textual equivalent of making a sad face so that your parents will buy you a bar of chocolate. Look at the letter again! It's written in elementary thoughts, there's nothing that isn't generic about it. She sounds like a 15 year old - but it's not a simpleton who writes this kind of letter, but someone who wants to sound pathetic, so that they can pick up believers, like you.

And the best thing for it is the kind of advice she's been getting from the "assholes" of the thread, as you call us. (It's also the only advice she's been getting. Your side of the discussion isn't offering advice at all.)

It isn't as if it isn't a problem: we all find out that sometimes we're not thinking straight about our actions in the world. It's Sartrean bad-faith, if you want. And we all have to get over it somehow. But it's a very unhealthy way to react to it, what she's doing here, and sympathy isn't helping her either. You're only adding to the bad-faith, if you become complicit in it. You're only encouraging her to look on her own actions as someone else's responsibility.

Jonny Arson wrote:

Yes she did write to national newspaper, she feels there is an important issue that must be brought out into the public domain and she did that brilliantly

What issue? The issue that the world is such that people who avoid the company of other people won't have the company of other people? As Hulla says, what kind of remedy is there for her 'situation'? I could write to the newspaper, exposing the issue that when things fall off cliffs they go down, but there isn't really anything anyone can do about gravity.

Jonny Arson wrote:

Again Fionn, how do you know she hasn't approached a councellor or a welfare officer? Where in the letter did she say she hasn't done this?
I would just hate to think people are continuing to make generic persumptions

It's not a generic presumption. It's an assumption based on the letter we got, which seems to me to be of a specific type of case; the kind of case that isn't fixeable by anybody else, and which will remain a problem for as long as the subject persists in believing that it is a situation foisted upon her rather than a chosen way of living.

Jonny Arson wrote:

Oh here we go.... yeah similar thing of course Fionn! :rolleyes:
Firstly, UCD knows there are students feeling isolated and like **** out in this place, they know too many students are dropping out as a result of this. IT'S A PROBLEM!!!

Is it a problem? Or is it something sorting itself out? I mean, why should this girl stay in UCD? She never wanted to come here, the only reason she is here is because her parents made her. She shouldn't be in UCD. What exactly would be wrong or problematic with this girl dropping out? Should UCD have students attending who don't want to be here, on both an educatonal and social level?

There is the possible (and you'll note I said possible) inference to be drawn from the letter that her parents sent her to college because she takes "somebody else do it for me, I'm going to mope for a while" attitude to most of her life, and doesn't really have a clear idea of what to do after school. In this case, I can see why they might have sent her here, and I can only see it as a symptom of her own laziness that she's turing what could be a good experience into a prison sentence.

Jonny Arson wrote:

The arrogant, ignorant, cliched, ''we're happy, we don't give a f**k'', ''it's all her fault'' attitdues prevailing on this thread would back that up soundly. Wait a go guys, you're doing a fine job of backing up UCD's reputation of being the arsehole college of Ireland :rolleyes:

I think you're looking for "way to go" not "wait a go".

arbeitsscheuer

hullaball&#250 wrote:

People are entitled to draw inferences from others' behaviour. For the most part, I would term the inferences drawn by Fionn and p*m astute. It's nothing to do with a lack of sympathy for her feelings, but more a lack of understanding of her behaviour.

Many people find UCD daunting at first. I did when I was in first year, and I was in a class of 50. We have most of us gotten over that, though. We have joined clubs and made an effort to get to know people. That's how any big university works.

Aside from those issues, the other posters have rightly made the point that - even if it is a characteristic of UCD that people feel lonely - there's nothing that can be legitimately or practically be done about it, other than that which is already being done i.e., facilitating the activities of societies and clubs.

QFT and frankly should be the bottom line in this argument...

Actually listened to a fair few people discussing this letter yesterday and it was clear to me that, altho their arguments (e.g. p*m's and MatthewF's) might seem brutally harsh, nobody was being unsympathetic or derogatory towards the girl herself and what she's going through.

Like Hulla, Jonny Arson and god knows how many others, I found UCD incredibly tough when I started here. I made 1 friend in 1st year. One. In 2nd year it got a lot better, but in fairness that was mainly because a mate of mine from school started in UCD and got to know ppl at a rate of knots and introduced me to them... And those pretty much make up the bulk of my college mates today.

Some people are just characteristically predisposed to arrive in a massive unviersity and just be so overawed and cowed by it that they encounter a sort of social paralysis. Just an inability to get to know people or even start talking to them.

I have sympathy for Sarah, I truly do. My heart goes out to her.
But I know that there is nothing the college or societies can really do, beyond what they're doing already. I know there's nothing they could have really said or done differently to help me make friends - it's something you have to do yourself.

humbert

FionnMatthew wrote:

I think that's a good thing about UCD. You can make friends if you want them, but you don't have to if you don't want to. You can achieve a measure of anonymity here too, and sometimes you need that.

There's nothing unhealthy about that. One needs to balance company with solitude. A person who cannot live with themselves is never going to learn how to live with others.

I like that about UCD too as it happens, actually the fact that my class has become so small in the final two years, making it impossible to be anonymous, bothers me. That isn't the case for everyone though.

As you say, there is a balance, the level of company a person would like. However the person described in that letter is lonelier than they would like.

I would be one of those people who appreciates their own company, I'm not advocating trying to encourage unsociable people to interact with others. Just casually giving them the option from time to time. If they decline that's entirely their right.

Blush_01

I feel very, very badly for this Sarah girl, I really do. But at the end of the day, if she is depressed, she needs to go to someone and talk to them. She needs to make friends herself. Nobody else can physically do that for her, as much as they might like to.

I've said the same thing last year, and possibly the year before, but I'll say it again. When I started in UCD I (like many others) knew nobody. I started talking to a guy in my first lecture (Philosophy) because he had a stuffed dog with him. I just asked what the dog's name was. Turned out it was his birthday, he'd been out the night before, and F-Day (the dog) was a birthday present. He's now one of my favourite acquaintances in UCD. My very best friends are all people I met through the society I'm involved with. That said, I have a huge number of acquaintances and know hundreds of people to see them on campus, simply because I start random conversations with people in queues, chatted to plenty of them in the Fresher's tent every year, met them at UCD beers, met them through friends, and I talk to them whenever I see them, even if it's just to say hi. I strike up conversations with people on buses. I'm probably a bit daft - but at the same time I can potentially spend an entire day in college hanging out and talking to various different people without feeling lonely. I did that - I talked to those people. You can't expect insta-friendship with anyone, people have to be acquaintances first and you have to build from there. I know I'll sound harsh in saying this, but I'm going to be frank - if I can do it, anyone can. Furthermore, if you don't make friends with the first 10 people you talk to, or the first 100, or the first 1,000 you keep going. Giving up and telling everyone that UCD is shít/everyone in UCD is unfriendly/ all the clubs and socs are unfriendly cliques is not anyone else's fault but your own.

I know of people on this board who have joined the society I'm involved in and never turned up to one meeting or the fresher's reception. At the same time they dismiss societies as being cliques. I know I don't study maths, but something doesn't add up there.

I know college isn't easy for everyone. I know people hate it and are under pressure to study something they don't like or have no interest in. I know people find the place daunting. I know people get depressed, and things can get on top of you very easily, that you keep your chin up for as long as you can and then when you finally can't it can sometimes have gone a lot further than you even realise. Then when you finally stop to take stock of the situation it feels like you're surrounded by insurmountable obstacles. That isn't UCD's fault though. There are people in place to talk to in that eventuality - lots and lots of them in fact. At the end of the day, it's up to the individual. Pretty*Monster, Hulla, Fionn et al haven't been hyper-pc, but they have been honest. To realistically combat the problems faced by people in this position, you have to look at the situation realistically. Being nice won't help people - it just gives people more places to hide until their problem gets too big to be dealt with.

Steibhin

I think the letter is really a reminder that some people can be very lonely even in University (Not just UCD). There really isn't a huge amount that cab be done about that, but its is still worth bearing in mind and it was still a good idea for Sarsh Brady to write that letter.

I guess the phrase 'Social Exclusion' is apt here. It happens everywhere, even in a University. There are lonley people in UCC, Trinity and DIT. There are lonely people in on the M50. There are lonely people on Inishboffin. UCD is no different.

As do what can be done (Hullabullu's question)? Not a lot really. The only thing I can think of would be classes on social skills. Would be expensive though. Also maybe a dating/friendship agency on campus that could pair lonely people up. Both those options would be quite difficult to implement however. Maybe its something the SU could look into down the line.

Any other suggestions?

Chinafoot

Steibhin wrote:

I guess the phrase 'Social Exclusion' is apt here.

It's self-exclusion. Nobody else is making a conscious effort to ignore this girl and keep her out of the social scene in UCD going by that letter.

As has already been pointed out here, in this instance Sarah Brady has made no mention of any effort put in by herself. People can't force her to have conversations and get involved. She has to do that herself. Same goes for others who join UCD and feel the same.


I'm with Blush, Fionn and pretty*monster on this one.

I didn't come to UCD with friends from school. There was one girl that I had known in primary school but we weren't friends and we didn't hang out at the start of college. I don't know if she even finished as I don't think I saw her around much after 1st year. It would have been so easy for me to sit around moping about having no mates and moaning about how cold and impersonal UCD is. Instead I got out there and made friends. I spoke to people in my lectures, outside having a smoke, queuing in the shop, anywhere the opportunity arose. As a result I have lots of different groups of friends that I still talk to and see regularly.

Your time in UCD, like most things in life, are what you make it.

Spectator#1

I honestly do think that it is sad that there are people walking around in UCD who don't know anybody and don't talk to anybody and hate it but can't or won't do anything to change it, whether by a complete lack of social skills or a self-sympathetic attitude.

Being lonely is a sad state of affairs, whatever causes it. We all know that bad feelings (like loneliness, self-consciousness etc...) beget more bad feelings and before you know it, you feel like total crap and you're in a situation where it's harder to cheer yourself up than it is to wallow in it.

I have to say, I agree with what FM, Grimes, P*M and a couple of others have said on this thread but it is important to point out that whatever this girl's motivations are in writing that letter, or going about not talking to people in UCD, she does actually need help, be it talking to a counsellor or dropping out of college and having a good think about what it is she actually wants to do. You don't just write letters like that for a laugh. Even if she's the biggest attention seeker in the world she's not in a good place at the moment if that's the kind of behaviour she's engaging in -- be it genuine or a victim complex.

Even that girl FM mentioned who went around leaving fake suicide notes about the place, I'm quite sure she could have done with a bit of counselling too. It's not the behaviour of a balanced individual, no matter how infuriating it is or how much it detracts from the genuine agony experienced by those who end their own lives.

For my tuppence worth, I would agree that UCD can be a very lonely place but I genuinely do think that a little effort goes a long way in making friends.

Actually, I think that this attitude that Jonny Arson and a couple of others have voiced--that loads of societies are 'cliquey'--is more responsible for the 'helplessness' attitude than anything else. Of course people who share interests in an area and spend a lot of time working on the same projects, be they debates, gigs, events, radio shows, newspapers, volunteering overseas, theatrical productions, whatever, are going to be closely knit and get to know each other really well.

So, in short, every society, if it's any good, is going to come across as a 'clique' to some degree. The idea is that you'll be interested in getting involved in a society, in doing things for it and with it, and in those situations, get to know people through those activities. I'm sure a minority of people are succesful in making friends if they just join a society and expect them to reach out and pull you in, stand on the outskirts and watch them having fun without diving in there and getting involved.

I fully accept that some people have difficulty doing that, but understanding that aspect of your personality and accepting with a view to working to get over it is the correct way to deal with it, rather than just blaming other people, in which case, you're never going to really have any control over your life at all.