Women and the Mosque

familygirl

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4946502685625561463&q=kuwait+mosque

I came across this link and thought it was interesting that there were no women in it? I noticed that there were men with young boys(presumably their sons) but there were no signs of wives or daughters, or any females in the mosque for that matter. Forgive me if I am naive in this matter, but are women not allowed in a mosque, or do they go to a different part, or what happens? Do families go to the mosque together, as is often done when christian families go to church?

the_new_mr

It's a fair question.

Most Mosques are split into two sections. One for men and one for women. This is more for the women than the men really so that the women can "let their hair down" (in a literal sense). Sometimes the separation is in the form of a wall, a small barrier or a simple curtain. And sometimes the section doesn't have any separator.

Most unfortunately, there are Mosques that don't have a section for women but these are usually small Mosques and this is usually due to a lack of room in the first place.

Also, I understand that in the time of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him), due to the nature of Mosque and the lack of electrical lighting in the 7th century, the Mosque was not divided into two sections and the women simply occupied a section of the Mosque.

Hobbes

Aren't the women also allowed not to pray as often as the men?

blackthorn

Hi Familygirl,

The women will be in another part of the mosque. Usually cameras are only allowed in the men's prayer area. This can sometimes lead to the false impression that there are no women in the mosque.

the_new_mr

Yeah, good point Sister Blackthorn.

Hobbes wrote:

Aren't the women also allowed not to pray as often as the men?

Women have to pray 5 times a day just like men but take a break during menstruation. Women don't have to attend Friday prayers at the Mosque but they can if they want and many women often do.

familygirl

What about a muslim woman who does not wear the hijab? Can she go to one of these 'smaller mosques' where there is no separate area for women, and pray among men?

blackthorn

Women cover their hair when performing the ritual five daily prayers, even those who normally do not wear hijab in public. It doesn't make any difference whether the prayer is made at home in private, among women at the mosque, or in an area with men and women together, in all those situations we cover our hair for those prayers.

familygirl

Ok so forget about the hijab. Women are not allowed into these smaller mosques - They must pray elsewhere? True or false?

wes

familygirl wrote:

Ok so forget about the hijab. Women are not allowed into these smaller mosques - They must pray elsewhere? True or false?

By all rights, room should be made for them in the Mosque regardless of the size.

blackthorn

I can say from my own experience praying at I suppose about half a dozen different locations around Ireland over the years between Mosques and musallas, that I have never come across a situation where women's prayer was not accommodated either in a shared space or in a separate room.

panda100

blackthorn wrote:

I can say from my own experience praying at I suppose about half a dozen different locations around Ireland over the years between Mosques and musallas, that I have never come across a situation where women's prayer was not accommodated either in a shared space or in a separate room.

I was in the clonskeagh mosque yesterday unfortunatly for a classmates funeral prayers. We had to sit in the womens section which was a small cramped balcony section. The men had a huge area downstairs. I was wondering what do Islamic women think about this? As a Christian women I would be insulted If I was confined to this small space upstairs overlooking the men?
Im intrested to know why exactly do they segregate the sexes?

InFront

I know you're asking for sisters opinions specifically and hopefully one will be along to give her point of view.

But if I can just say, the tradition goes back to the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and relates to protecting the dignity of women, and avoiding temptation at a serious time, when everyone's emphasis ought to be on conducting prayer in as devoted and as concentrated a way as can be possible without distraction. There is a hadith where prophet is reported to have said that the best of the men's prayer rows are at the front, and the best of the women's prayer rows are the last.

Having sisters at a higher level seems to satisfy this arrangement in effect. Allah knows best.

As for the sisters' area being cramped, there's no particular Islamic reason for this that I have ever been told. It's essentially a structural problem as opposed to a religious one.

blackthorn

panda100 wrote:

I was in the clonskeagh mosque yesterday unfortunatly for a classmates funeral prayers.

Sorry to hear about your classmate. It's hard when a young person like that passes away.

panda100 wrote:

We had to sit in the womens section which was a small cramped balcony section. The men had a huge area downstairs. I was wondering what do Islamic women think about this?

I've prayed on that balcony, and I didn't have the feeling it was cramped, but possibly the mosque was less full at that time than it would be for a funeral. I thought it was a nice place to pray, (I enjoy praying in mosques generally )and I liked that it overlooked the main prayer hall. When we finished praying, my daughter and I had fun looking down at her dad and brothers below us. As well as the balcony, there are other rooms used by women downstairs for prayer and socialising etc. There is something peaceful about mosques, and I hope you were able to get a sense of that despite the sadness of the occasion, and your feelings about the balcony.

the_new_mr

Sorry to hear about your classmate panda. May God rest their soul.

panda100 wrote:

We had to sit in the womens section which was a small cramped balcony section. The men had a huge area downstairs.

Well, this is sometimes the case unfortunately. Usually, the women's section is smaller than the men's because, on average, less women come to the Mosque but this means that when a larger than average number of women come (as in the case of a funeral) then it tends to be a bit cramped. Having said that, the same is true of the men's section as sometimes a larger than average number of men may turn up (especially during Ramadan).

It would be true to say that in some locations, women are not given a fair share of space in a Mosque and this is very un-Islamic in principle. Most major Mosques may fair allowance though.

panda100

blackthorn wrote:

I've prayed on that balcony, and I didn't have the feeling it was cramped, but possibly the mosque was less full at that time than it would be for a funeral. I thought it was a nice place to pray, (I enjoy praying in mosques generally )and I liked that it overlooked the main prayer hall. When we finished praying, my daughter and I had fun looking down at her dad and brothers below us. As well as the balcony, there are other rooms used by women downstairs for prayer and socialising etc. There is something peaceful about mosques, and I hope you were able to get a sense of that despite the sadness of the occasion, and your feelings about the balcony.

That is a nice way to look at it. When I was younger I used to love sitting in the balcony section of my local church.

I have to admit I was suprised about how welcoming everyone was.I think through the media etc you get an image that all muslims are extremist,cold hearted fundamentalists.Everyone in the clonskeagh mosque that day was so comforting.I apologised to one of the elder muslim ladys as we werent too sure wether it would be right for us,as catholics, to attend the mosque. She said that for Muslims the prayer is strengthened when there is many people praying together.She said that there were so many muslims/christians praying for Achmed that he would definatly be in paradise by now.It was a really comforting thing to say.

However,as a feminist I still think that women are treated as second rate citizens in most religions.Its something that I cant accpt in my own religon,catholicsm,and it seems to be worse in Islam.


Just out of curiosity,Is there a reason why Muslim men attend the mosque more then women?Are the Friday prayers meant to be just for the men?

InFront

panda100 wrote:

Just out of curiosity,Is there a reason why Muslim men attend the mosque more then women?Are the Friday prayers meant to be just for the men?

No, the Friday prayers can be for anyone who comes to the mosque to pray to Allah no matter if they are males or females.

The difference is that Jumu`ah prayer (which is just the term for the congregational prayer on Fridays) is not obligatory for a woman. She is of course welcome to come and should be encouraged, but unlike a man she has no special obligation to do so; it is completely down to her.

At the time of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, women used to pray in the Mosque with the men. There are some backward cultural movements in some places abroad that prohibit women from entering mosques, but that would not tend to be the general position amongst scholars as far as I have ever heard.

I don't know why I forgot to say earlier, I was sorry to hear about your classmate, may Allah have mercy on him. To Allah we belong and to him we go back to.

the_new_mr

panda100 wrote:

I have to admit I was suprised about how welcoming everyone was.I think through the media etc you get an image that all muslims are extremist,cold hearted fundamentalists

I'm glad that you can testify to this gulf between the portrayal of Muslims in the media and the reality of what the average Muslim is like.

panda100 wrote:

However,as a feminist I still think that women are treated as second rate citizens in most religions.Its something that I cant accpt in my own religon,catholicsm,and it seems to be worse in Islam.

Unfortunately, some people treat women as second rate citizens in some Muslim countries and cultures but this is to do with the culture rather than Islam itself. It really sucks but there is some improvement going on these days.

Ayman

Salaam, I am an Irish muslimah living in Limerick. My husband has told me there are no places for muslim women to pray in Limerick. I'm wondering if anyone knows of any place nearby as I'd really like to attend for Eid Ul Adha with my young son. I'd love the opportunity to meet more muslim women. I was in touch with my husband's friends wife but they've recently moved and I didn't feel comfortable with her as our husbands are friends!!!;). I have loads of Christian friends since before I converted and am close to my family, but its hard to get them to understand my way of thinking about things and could use a listener with muslim ears

blackthorn

Salam Ayman,

The mosque that I know of in Limerick is an ordinary house which has been converted. There is a very small room off the main prayer area where I was told the women pray. I've prayed there, but there were no other women there at the time that I could ask about it. It is definitely not big enough for the crowd you would expect on Eid. The same problem exists in Galway, so they hire out a big sports hall not far from the mosque for the Eid prayers. I would hope they have a similar arrangement in Limerick so that everyone who wants to can participate in the Eid prayer. It's very important for the whole community to gather together for that prayer in particular.

I'm a convert from Christianity too, Ayman. You can PM me if you like.

Nerin

Unfortunately, some people treat women as second rate citizens in some Muslim countries and cultures but this is to do with the culture rather than Islam itself. It really sucks but there is some improvement going on these days.

this is true,
funnily enough,when portrayed beside christians back in the old times shortly after Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him,Muslims come across as fairly open and liberal.
i think the aspects in some countries and customs that people find negative today are just a deviation away from the original message.
one mustnt forget christians (and indeed pagans like myself) werent always so liberal.

Filan

Yes quite amazing how the medieval Islamic world was considered the most creative, scholarly and discursive of it's time..It was the magnet for intellectual thought....

Would really like to meet Muslims locally to discuss the faith on an intellectual level..if there was any available.

I have not always appeared like a friend of Islam on this forum....but despite my misgivings, I have a lot of respect for elements of Islam.

gillyfromlyre

My hubby said that he wants us to become muslims, he said it would be a great excuse to hid my face he he

lucyburn

gillyfromlyre wrote: »

My hubby said that he wants us to become muslims, he said it would be a great excuse to hid my face he he

Your husband sounds charming.
If my boyfriend said that to me he'd be living in 'Dump City'

gillyfromlyre

hes an awful joker but a saint at heart

littlesteps

[Hi, 3 years have passed since I first encountered became interested in Islam . As a Christiam, I found it very frustrating that I could not visit certain mosques and was essentiallu (I felt) treated as a second class citizen. My reading and understanding have brought me some distance. It is my understanding that the Quran is essentially /Islam a very perfect and beautiful religeon. Unfortunately much of what is experienced in modern Islam (full covering of women) has more to do with individual cultures than the teachings of Islam. It is my understanding that the focus of prayer is to pray to Allah. Neither man nor women can do this if one eye is on an attractive individual 2 feet away. This is being honest and practical. Men are obliged to attend whereby women are obliged to pray same as men but there obligation is to the maintenance of home and family life. If they wish they should not be stopped by their husbands. Most mosques in USA, UK have places for women. Most in India do not. This is cultural. Important to remember that in rural Ireland 50 years ago or more women sat on one side and men on the other and of course head covering was a mark of resprect and obligatory. We are not so different, however we have changed our perceptions.

noor tkd master

panda100 wrote: »

That is a nice way to look at it. When I was younger I used to love sitting in the balcony section of my local church.

I have to admit I was suprised about how welcoming everyone was.I think through the media etc you get an image that all muslims are extremist,cold hearted fundamentalists.Everyone in the clonskeagh mosque that day was so comforting.I apologised to one of the elder muslim ladys as we werent too sure wether it would be right for us,as catholics, to attend the mosque. She said that for Muslims the prayer is strengthened when there is many people praying together.She said that there were so many muslims/christians praying for Achmed that he would definatly be in paradise by now.It was a really comforting thing to say.

However,as a feminist I still think that women are treated as second rate citizens in most religions.Its something that I cant accpt in my own religon,catholicsm,and it seems to be worse in Islam.


Just out of curiosity,Is there a reason why Muslim men attend the mosque more then women?Are the Friday prayers meant to be just for the men?

Dear Madam, as far as your comments “it seems to be worse in Islam" Islam has given all rights to women, and Muslim men must always show kindness towards ladies. This is fundamental teaching of Islam.
The Holy Prophet (saw) has made this very clear to men.

He said “la yafrak me'minun mu'minatan in Kariha minha Khuluqan radiya minhu akhara- let no Muslim man entertain any rancour against a Muslim women. Should he dislike one quality in her, he would find another which is pleasing" (Muslim) he also told Muslims that "Paradise lies under the feet of a mother"

What we observe in some Islamic countries is the culture of that country. So these countries which might be oppressing women are doing so against the Teachings of Islam.

Women are very welcome to come to the Mosque whenever they want.
as far as the Friday Prayer again Ladies should come it is their right. as an Imam I encourage them to come.

Noor

panda100

noor tkd master wrote: »

Dear Madam, as far as your comments “it seems to be worse in Islam" Islam has given all rights to women, and Muslim men must always show kindness towards ladies. This is fundamental teaching of Islam.
The Holy Prophet (saw) has made this very clear to men.

He said “la yafrak me'minun mu'minatan in Kariha minha Khuluqan radiya minhu akhara- let no Muslim man entertain any rancour against a Muslim women. Should he dislike one quality in her, he would find another which is pleasing" (Muslim) he also told Muslims that "Paradise lies under the feet of a mother"

What we observe in some Islamic countries is the culture of that country. So these countries which might be oppressing women are doing so against the Teachings of Islam.

Women are very welcome to come to the Mosque whenever they want.
as far as the Friday Prayer again Ladies should come it is their right. as an Imam I encourage them to come.

Noor

I do tend to support Islam women in my every day life and on these boards as much as I can because I feel that so much of the criticisms Western society has of Islam is being motivated by Racism and Imperialism.

However,I still feel that it was quite clear to me in the Clonskeagh Mosque that women were subordinate to men. I apprecaite that all mosques are different but the Clonskeagh Mosque is the largest,and most important mosque in Ireland. I fail to see the equality in women given a cramped,balcony section far away from the Imam, overlooking all the men.

What was worse is the time I was there it was a funeral and the sister had to sit far away from her brothers body and the Iman saying the funeral prayers,overlooking all the men grieving. I just cant see any compassion there and find it to be very unequal.

The Recliner

panda100 wrote: »

I do tend to support Islam women in my every day life and on these boards as much as I can because I feel that so much of the criticisms Western society has of Islam is being motivated by Racism and Imperialism.

However,I still feel that it was quite clear to me in the Clonskeagh Mosque that women were subordinate to men. I apprecaite that all mosques are different but the Clonskeagh Mosque is the largest,and most important mosque in Ireland. I fail to see the equality in women given a cramped,balcony section far away from the Imam, overlooking all the men.

What was worse is the time I was there it was a funeral and the sister had to sit far away from her brothers body and the Iman saying the funeral prayers,overlooking all the men grieving. I just cant see any compassion there and find it to be very unequal.

Hi Panda100

The person you are replying too has been sitebanned so wont be able to continue the conversation, hopefully someone else will take up your points though

Monzicaca

Ayman wrote: »

Salaam, I am an Irish muslimah living in Limerick. My husband has told me there are no places for muslim women to pray in Limerick. I'm wondering if anyone knows of any place nearby as I'd really like to attend for Eid Ul Adha with my young son. I'd love the opportunity to meet more muslim women. I was in touch with my husband's friends wife but they've recently moved and I didn't feel comfortable with her as our husbands are friends!!!;). I have loads of Christian friends since before I converted and am close to my family, but its hard to get them to understand my way of thinking about things and could use a listener with muslim ears

Hi Ayman,

I know the post I am replying to is very old, but just wondered if you are still living here? I've been living in the city now for almost 4 years and still have not met any other Muslim women here. Sure I see them walking around town, but never meet them in a situation where we could start a conversation!

Would ne nice to hear from you
Salaam
Aisha