Iraq steadily getting worse

Manic Moran

CPT. SURF wrote:

I am sorry but this is some of the worst nonsense I have heard lately.

I do not think you even understand how the US government works.

The Congress is the most powerful branch. So if Bush was to attack Iran he would need Congressional approval, like he got from them for Iraq. This makes your point about passing some resolution completely moot.

Dude, if you're going to go about claiming knowledge of how the US system works, I strongly recommend you at least give correct information.

Congress does not need to be consulted before the President orders an attack on anyone. There is ample precedent of this, both in the small scale ("Let's lob a single missile at something in Sudan") or large scale ("Let's conduct an air campaign against Yugoslavia with a sortie rate greater than that of Desert Storm")

The military chain of command does not involve Congress.

they should be replaced with an arab dominated UN force and law and order quickly restored

What makes you think that the arab nations are remotely interested in providing troops for such a force? What makes you think that the Shia majority is going to approve of a UN force provided by generally Sunni nations?

NTM

Sesshoumaru

edanto wrote:

In time, the place will revert to a normal middle eastern country.

Normal middle eastern country? seriously whats the norm in the middle east? think about it..... is that desirable?

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

But even the dems have no problem working with and supporting dictators (like the saudis) when it's in their economic interest

Technically neither do we given that we buy their oil.

Is Robert Fisk or John Pilger 'non aligned'?

They are a good read in my opinion but very directionally loaded in their analysis.

There are lots of thousands in a million... The protest was described as "Huge" by the NY times who said "tens of thousands" marched. John Pilger said there were a million protesters

Yeah it depends on who is reporting and what point you want to emphasise.
I'd go with reutters myself,they are more factual in the reporting as opposed to pushing an editorial slant.

edanto

Manic Moran wrote:

What makes you think that the arab nations are remotely interested in providing troops for such a force?

they should be asked.

What makes you think that the Shia majority is going to approve of a UN force provided by generally Sunni nations?

NTM

They will like them more than the yankees. No. of US flags burnt = many, No. of Sunni kebab stands burnt down = slightly less

The UN can decide on and implement any policy it wants, as long as the US promises to withhold it's veto (or abstain from important votes, which apparantly has the same effect as the veto in the case of the US) and pay it's dues (overdues).

Frederico

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I wouldn't say Iraq is getting worse. A brutal dictator who oppressed the Shia majority is dead and the Iraqi people can vote in free elections now. We just need to make sure America gets the support she needs to finish cleaning out those muslim terrorists from Iraq. The only people who see nothing positive in Iraq are extremist left wingers in the West who have an irrational hatred for America/Israel/Freedom/Western culture.

Yes, the Americans haven't _said_ they're just in Iraq for the Oil, just like you aren't _saying_ how much you hate muslims, how happy you and and Bill O'Reilly would be if they could just be annhilated off the face of the earth. The NeoCon trick is to smile and say how you don't really hate muslims, when its so obvious its the bloody root cause of all of this.

The country was actually better and safer under Saddam, as hideous as that sounds, we all know it, you just don't wanna admit it. If for the next few months 1000 people a day are dying in a civil war, you would be on boards, writing about 'how its getting better' and 'at least they dont have Saddam'.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Technically neither do we given that we buy their oil.

It's a very different kind of support. The Saudis and the U.S. have an 'arrangement' whereby the Saudis maintain the petro dollar and the Americans protect the dictatorship

They are a good read in my opinion but very directionally loaded in their analysis.
Yeah it depends on who is reporting and what point you want to emphasise.
I'd go with reutters myself,they are more factual in the reporting as opposed to pushing an editorial slant.

Well, in my honest opinion, they are directionally loaded in their analysis because their analysis is generally spot on. They are anti war and imperialism, because they have seen the effects first hand. In contrast, the so called 'neutral' media have an institutional bias (as Chomsky would say) that favours (through the process of appointment and promotion) the reporters and editors that reflect the politics of the owners of the media.

The pictures do show that there are clearly more than 'thousands' of protesters (thousands implies between 2 and 10 thousand)

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

It's a very different kind of support. The Saudis and the U.S. have an 'arrangement' whereby the Saudis maintain the petro dollar and the Americans protect the dictatorship

With respect thats a kind of loaded directional interpretation of whats going on in itself.

Well, in my honest opinion, they are directionally loaded in their analysis because their analysis is generally spot on. They are anti war and imperialism, because they have seen the effects first hand. In contrast, the so called 'neutral' media have an institutional bias (as Chomsky would say) that favours (through the process of appointment and promotion) the reporters and editors that reflect the politics of the owners of the media.

Hmmm if it wasn't for the fact that it's mainly in "Sir" Tony O Reilly's newspapers that I see Robert Fisks blogs,I'd take your point.

The pictures do show that there are clearly more than 'thousands' of protesters (thousands implies between 2 and 10 thousand)

There were probably hundreds of thousands maybe-but theres a big difference between say 3 or 4 hundred thousand and close to a million.

edanto

Yip, so they should have said hundreds of thousands. Instead of just thousands.

That's like saying dozens, when in actual fact there were thousands. same order of misrepresentation.

But, it's hard to really take any meaning from such misrepresentations unless they're properly analysed - anyone know of interesting content analysis on the Iraq invasion? (yes, it's a loaded and biased term - are my colours showing? ;>)

RedPlanet

According to this news story Iraq is now a "university of terror".
http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSL1744453120070417?pageNumber=1
Now that may just be bravado by some Al Qaeda group. I suppose we may find out if that missle gets put into use.
Unless of course the media blame Iran for it...:rolleyes:

Botany Bay

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I wouldn't say Iraq is getting worse. A brutal dictator who oppressed the Shia majority is dead and the Iraqi people can vote in free elections now. We just need to make sure America gets the support she needs to finish cleaning out those muslim terrorists from Iraq. The only people who see nothing positive in Iraq are extremist left wingers in the West who have an irrational hatred for America/Israel/Freedom/Western culture.

Wow I see the propaganda is still easily digested:rolleyes:

Bottle_of_Smoke

Botany Bay wrote:

Wow I see the propaganda is still easily digested:rolleyes:

Was just about to post something similar along the same lines. I really hate the way people can think things like that from what's effectively government marketing.

I don't recall anyone in the US saying they wanted Iraqi oil???

hahahahahhhhahahahah. The wolf never said he wanted to eat the sheep.

If Saddam had merely co-operated with the international community there would have been no war. Now Saddam is dead and the Iraqi people live in a Democracy. Thats great progress!

Yeah I'd love to live there.

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Only those extreme left wingers who have an irrational hatred for America see nothing positive in Iraq. I mean sure the road to freedom will be a bit bumpy for the Iraqi people. But freedom is messy

A bit bumpy? If your family had been burnt alive by a suicide attack prompted by a foreign invasion I don't think you'd describe it that way. That's an extremely disrespectful & ignorant way of putting it.

I don't have an irrational hatred of America. I've gotten on fine with any that I've known/ I've spoken with Texans who know the word freedom is being manipulated to fool people like you into supporting an unneccesary war. I love so many things about America, I look at all the technology/science/music/arts that have come from the US so don't pull the extreme left wing card on me because I recognise that anything positive that's come out of Iraq is insignificant when you consider the negative consequences

FYI

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

A bit bumpy? If your family had been burnt alive by a suicide attack prompted by a foreign invasion I don't think you'd describe it that way. That's an extremely disrespectful & ignorant way of putting it.

Don't you understand, all the improvements in health care and infrastructure, the breaking down of community divides, the creation of jobs and the expansion of the middle class, the ridding of foreign terrorists, the freedom of movement, the end of the death penalty, the improvement in infant mortality, the move from privatisation to public ownership, the return of refugees, the multicultural atmostphere of having 150,000 new English speakers in the country, all the new McDonalds that opened (in military bases) - all these things make the fear of having yourself blown up each day worth while.

Hail the liberators, it's the Iraqis own fault if they can't turn this ruined country and this divided people into a functioning democracy - the US should just pack up and leave and forever curse the Iraqis for their greed and stupidity. We gave them a chance for freedom and they rejected it, they don't know how to be free. We'll install a better Saddam and leave him/her to it.

Botany Bay

FYI wrote:

Don't you understand, all the improvements in health care and infrastructure, the breaking down of community divides, the creation of jobs and the expansion of the middle class, the ridding of foreign terrorists, the freedom of movement, the end of the death penalty, the improvement in infant mortality, the move from privatisation to public ownership, the return of refugees, the multicultural atmostphere of having 150,000 new English speakers in the country, all the new McDonalds that opened (in military bases) - all these things make the fear of having yourself blown up each day worth while.

Hail the liberators, it's the Iraqis own fault if they can't turn this ruined country and this divided people into a functioning democracy - the US should just pack up and leave and forever curse the Iraqis for their greed and stupidity. We gave them a chance for freedom and they rejected it, they don't know how to be free. We'll install a better Saddam and leave him/her to it.

Indeed sarchasm is the best form of response to incredible levels of ignorance/stupidity!!

BlitzKrieg

wtf?

just saw the news...

The americans have built a f*cking wall!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6579335.stm

Manic Moran

This is at least the third barrier they've built, they've done it around Baghdad and Mosul as well, the Mosul one was more effective, the Baghdad one not so much. This is, however, the first one I know of which is split not so much along geographic as ethnic lines.

I'm in two minds on the matter. One is that it reinforces ethnic divide, but the other is that the whole issue is over the tit-for-tat bombings between the two communities, so maybe helping some form of local security without relying on the local neighbourhood (literally) militia isn't that bad a deal. Similar ethnic separations are in effect in the former Yugoslavia where UN and NATO troops the 'wall'. The divides there are still very strong, but if it helps them from killing one another while they figure out again how they can live together, I'm not convinced it's a bad thing.

NTM

sovtek

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

I've spoken with Texans who know the word freedom is being manipulated to fool people like you into supporting an unneccesary war.

Add one more Texan to that tally.

Sesshoumaru

FYI wrote:

Don't you understand, all the improvements in health care and infrastructure, the breaking down of community divides, the creation of jobs and the expansion of the middle class, the ridding of foreign terrorists, the freedom of movement, the end of the death penalty, the improvement in infant mortality, the move from privatisation to public ownership, the return of refugees, the multicultural atmostphere of having 150,000 new English speakers in the country, all the new McDonalds that opened (in military bases) - all these things make the fear of having yourself blown up each day worth while.

Hail the liberators, it's the Iraqis own fault if they can't turn this ruined country and this divided people into a functioning democracy - the US should just pack up and leave and forever curse the Iraqis for their greed and stupidity. We gave them a chance for freedom and they rejected it, they don't know how to be free. We'll install a better Saddam and leave him/her to it.

My thoughts exactly!! All hail America! Down with those treacherous left wing dogs who say Iraq is a mess

Sesshoumaru

Botany Bay wrote:

Indeed sarchasm is the best form of response to incredible levels of ignorance/stupidity!!

I don't know what sarchasm is, but you certainly wear your anti american views like a uniform. If you could just suspend your belief that America is the great satan for a moment, you will see its not all doom and gloom in Iraq.

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I don't know what sarchasm is, but you certainly wear your anti american views like a uniform. If you could just suspend your belief that America is the great satan for a moment, you will see its not all doom and gloom in Iraq.

Dude, are you being serious or completely taking the piss?

Sesshoumaru

Akrasia wrote:

Dude, are you being serious or completely taking the piss?

Serious and disgusted with some people on this thread. While I am willing to admit its not all rosy in Iraq right now, I'm not praying for it to become worse just so I can say "haha I was right, down with America" like some people here.

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Serious and disgusted with some people on this thread. While I am willing to admit its not all rosy in Iraq right now, I'm not praying for it to become worse just so I can say "haha I was right, down with America" like some people here.

We don't need Iraq to get any worse to be able to say "We were right". It's been a complete disaster from the very beginning.

Sesshoumaru

Akrasia wrote:

We don't need Iraq to get any worse to be able to say "We were right". It's been a complete disaster from the very beginning.

and thats very important for extreme left wingers I'm sure, being right that is. More important than Iraq getting a decent shot at becoming a stable democracy.

Liam Byrne

So what you're saying, Sesshoumaru, is that the invasion of Iraq was aimed at giving Iraq that "decent shot at becoming a stable democracy" ?

What was that - reason number 4, when the first 3 were discounted as lies and propaganda ?

There was a brilliant cartoon in yesterday's Sunday Tribune, emphasising that the entire world stops and gives front-page and extensive TV and inside coverage to Virginia Tech, but that the same news outlets ignore the fact that Iraq has the equivalent of at least one of those atrocities every single day.

America ****ed up - they couldn't even articulate a coherent reason as to why they were invading - revenge for 9/11 ? non-existent WMDs ? Overthrowing Saddam (their previous best buddy) ? Imposition of democracy ?

That's no reason to gloat, especially when there are thousands of innocent lives being lost every day, but it's still a fact worth emphasising.

P.S. Reason #5: America wants control of the oil. Period.

El Stuntman

Liam Byrne wrote:

P.S. Reason #5: America wants control of the oil. Period.

we too would like some of that there black gold

Akrasia

El Stuntman wrote:

we too would like some of that there black gold

No, we don't even want the oil in our own territorial waters. We just give it away for free

El Stuntman

Akrasia wrote:

No, we don't even want the oil in our own territorial waters. We just give it away for free

it was actually a semi-humourous attempt at explaining why our interests are almost 100% aligned with those of our close ally - the United States (cheap, secure oil supplies from the Middle East)

let the flaming commence

Akrasia

El Stuntman wrote:

it was actually a semi-humourous attempt at explaining why our interests are almost 100% aligned with those of our close ally - the United States (cheap, secure oil supplies from the Middle East)

let the flaming commence

I know hence my own semi humourous retort

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I don't know what sarchasm is

Were you also being serious when you said this?

You really need to educate yourself mate. All that fox news is melting your brain

El Stuntman

Akrasia wrote:

I know hence my own semi humourous retort

such self-restraint!!

I applaud you, I thought lefties had no sense of humour

(although those Marx brothers were pretty funny, eh?)

Sesshoumaru

Akrasia wrote:

Dude, are you being serious or completely taking the piss?

Taking the piss to a degree. But at the same time I was being accused of "ignorance/stupidity" by someone who can can't use a spell checker.

I'm also only taking this whole thread semi seriously as well. For the record I was against invading Iraq. I only bothered posting because I found it sickening watching every extreme left winger in here high fiving and back slapping each other over how great it was that iraq was "getting steadily worse". Yay woohoo! great isn't it!! Now the Great Satan should just leave Iraq and really lets those Iraqis finish settling their old grudges. No wait..... sorry I forgot. It is Americas fault when Sunni and Shia kill each other. They hold no responsibility for their actions. When that car bomb went off with the two kids in the back seat, that was also Americas fault as well. Iraq will return to being a tranquil and peaceful place when America leaves. Just the way it was under Saddam.