Time to prepare for a United Ireland even if it does not happen?

flogen

Poblachtach wrote:

Well take a look at the following bass drum. Iam happy it was'nt shown on TV, imagine the response then?

Rising Sons Loyalist Flute Band E.Belfast
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9484/shortstrand11120706059by0.jpg

Apologies for not knowing my Loyalist Bands off by heart but have a look at the loyalist flags on this banner.
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/4876/normaldsc00088bj0.jpg

You're seriously showing me random pictures of marching bands in an attempt to prove that they were carrying signs glorifying the murder of Catholics during the Love Ulster parade?

And for fear of being obtuse, those two examples linked don't even equate to the suggestion you were making - that they had signs "glorifying the amount of catholics killed here and there". Plenty of Orange marches are sickeningly sectarian, and plenty of the marchers took part in the Love Ulster parade, but you've added 1 + 1 and gotten 3.

fly_agaric

ninty9er wrote:

What about allowing the people of the Republic to parttake in the referendum, to see if changes circumstances would see the Republic reject Northern Ireland's integration.

I'd like that too. I doubt we will get the chance to vote on these issues at all. Deeper and deeper N-S integration/cooperation seems set to continue to happen above out heads no matter who is in power here.
As a small example - I don't remember anything in FF's or the PD's last manifestos about chucking a billion euro (or whatever it is!) at the Good Pehpol of Uhlster.

K-9

fly_agaric wrote:

I'd like that too. I doubt we will get the chance to vote on these issues at all. Deeper and deeper N-S integration/cooperation seems set to continue to happen above out heads no matter who is in power here.
As a small example - I don't remember anything in FF's or the PD's last manifestos about chucking a billion euro (or whatever it is!) at the Good Pehpol of Uhlster.

I'm sure the DUP/UUP didn't shout about NI contributing towards the UK subvention to the EC in the 80's/90's, thus providing funds to the Good People of the 23 Counties.

There does need to be a recognition, like Gerry Adams admits, that there is not going to be a 32 County United Ireland in the short term.

Therfore, Republican or Nationalism doesn't really come into it. There will be a NI in the UK, and not in a United Ireland, but with considerable influence from the Republic, for the forseeable future. It doesn't matter if you are republican or nationalist, thats the reality.

ninty9er wrote:

What about allowing the people of the Republic to parttake in the referendum, to see if changes circumstances would see the Republic reject Northern Ireland's integration.

There seems to be a growing opinion agreeing to this.

IMO, i don't agree with it, but if this continues and the majority of the people in the Republic reject NI's integration, well no matter how much I don't agree with it, who am I to disagree with democracy?

cathald

In the end that is one of the questions, I would like to know. Anytime I hear the word democracy I am starting to wonder on the correctness of it. Seems like one side always seems to try to shut the other one up.....discrimination etc.

ninty9er

Poblachtach wrote:

Being a member of a ''Republican Party'' just what are you for?

I'm for providing the people of this great republic with the services they deserve, and re-igniting the traditional customs & values of Irish society, such as neighbourliness, community spirit and a lessened slense of greed....now don't get me wrong I'm not saying a little selfishness is a bad thing, and risk has to be rewarded. Just that we have enough problems this side of the border.

In the long run there'd always be a psychological north/south divide anyway. Most people who I know (outside of FF) that are "anti them F*ing brits, giv us back our f*ing country" would have absolutely no interest in seeing that it works after a piece of paper allowing it were signed. They're more anti-Brit than pro-UI, which makes no sense.

There's a part of me deep down that wants to get the pitchfork, march over the border in front of a cavalcade of tanks and tractors:p and "reclaim the north", but I then consider:
There is a Unionist population that will be agrieved at this, just as the nationalist population is with the current situation, and the way I see it; it's better that neither of them have it their way than just changing the balances around.

I'd be strongly in favour of an all island economy and currency, but an all island government jsut won't be able to cope with the strains of the unionist revolt if the day comes when 50% + 1 of the people who vote do so in favour of integration with the Republic.

Co-operation, better than another 30 years of warfare from the UDA, UVF and LVF.

No matter how strongly one feels about these things deep down in the heart, the head must sometimes rule and in this case the head knows the pocket won't like this outcome and is against it.

So being a member of a Republican Party; I'm all for giving the approx 2 million people in Northern Ireland a republic all of their very own

Look republicanism up in a dictionary and see how far you get!!

fly_agaric wrote:

Deeper and deeper N-S integration/cooperation seems set to continue to happen above out heads no matter who is in power here.
As a small example - I don't remember anything in FF's or the PD's last manifestos about chucking a billion euro (or whatever it is!) at the Good Pehpol of Uhlster.

This I don't have a problem with as an all-island economy is beneficial to both jurisdictions

edit: spelling

K-9

There does seem to be an element in any United Ireland debate of:

Well they ignored our beliefs/civil rights for 70/80 years. So lets show them how we've learned from that. Lets ignore another minorities beliefs/civil rights.

We've learned from 800 years of oppression.

If a majority of NI wants to be part of UK in some way we have to respect that. They are a minority on this island. Minorities have been disrespected too long on this island.

OS119

purplengold wrote:

Some people on here seem to think that it will be only a matter of changing currency and the colour of our post boxes and hey! It’s a united Ireland folks! It won’t happen for many many years. Never forget, a sizable portion of the protestant population of Northern Ireland despise the people of the republic. They hate Catholics, period, and will never be persuaded that this is now a secular state.

if it was to change at 50%+1 then it would be a disaster of monumental proportions.

it needs to wait until you've got 75% approval and 90% of the 'opposed' saying "its not what i want but i respect the majority decision.." the tiny minority left will have to be policed and guarded against. the way to get to that stage is to have freeflowing co-operation between the states to such an extent that the change hardly has any effect on everyday life, the way you do that is to have longstanding - and effective - systems that allow citizens of either state to access similar services both sides of the border, so if you happen to live in NI but its 25 minutes drive to an NI High School but only 5 munites drive to an RoI high school then you go to the nearest with no hassle, very similar curricula and equally valid qualifications, likewise if you live in Raphoe and your nearest doctor is in Strabane then you go to Strabane with no dramas.

one other, easy area for co-operation is Search and Rescue: in RoI the SAR sercive has already been privatised whereas in the UK it will be privatised in 5 years when the RAF and RN SeaKings are due to retire. getting the ROI and NI governments to agree on a single SAR contract for all-Ireland and all Irish/UK waters around NI should be fairly simple. something similar regarding air ambulances should be even easier.

on the somewhat less rosey side is the issue of policing and military support: in the mid-Seventies when some 35% of the population of NI were opposed to the status quo, and only some 5 - 8% of the population prepared to support the use of violence to change that status quo, yet to maintain what passed for 'order' on those days required a police force of some 8,500 full-time and 5,000 reserve officers and regular military support of 20,000 plus eleven battalions of UDR. maintaining 20,000 regular troops in NI required having some 60,000 set aside for that task alone (20k there, 20k training to go, and 20k recouperating from being there).

RoI currently has 10,000 troops, meaning it could perhaps put 3,000 on the ground permamently and maybe 6,000 for a short-time in the most dire emergency, meanwhile PSNI numbers have dropped from a total of 13,000 to 8,500 and GS has a force of only some 13,000. the UDR/RIR home service units have all been disbanded.

a UI will be in no position to maintain order, let alone enforce it, should a significant minority - and we know from history how small a significant minority can be - are prepared to use violence. this doesn't have to be PIRA scale violence, this can just be good old fashioned rioting.

wait till everyone over the age of 30 has died off, use similar health and education systems for a few decades and have party politcs based on economic and social issues rather than the 'national question'. then it will seem like the most natural thing in the world...

marco murphy

flogen wrote:

You're seriously showing me random pictures of marching bands in an attempt to prove that they were carrying signs glorifying the murder of Catholics during the Love Ulster parade?

And for fear of being obtuse, those two examples linked don't even equate to the suggestion you were making - that they had signs "glorifying the amount of catholics killed here and there". Plenty of Orange marches are sickeningly sectarian, and plenty of the marchers took part in the Love Ulster parade, but you've added 1 + 1 and gotten 3.

The very same banners were present at the Love Ulster parade.

flogen

Poblachtach wrote:

The very same banners were present at the Love Ulster parade.

Not that I've seen or am aware of - there were plenty of pictures taken during that day and yet they all seem to have vanished. How odd.

Adyx

Even if Scotland gains independence, the break up of the Union isn't necessarily going to happen. UK = United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland. Great Britain = England, Scotland & Wales. Even if Scotland leaves, that still leaves the UK of Britain & Northern Ireland. If you want to get technical, the only way to break up the UK is for either NI to leave or the whole of Britain to leave. Either way you're left with an independent NI.

Mucco

What's the advantage for people in the republic to vote for a united Ireland?

fly_agaric

Seanies32 wrote:

I'm sure the DUP/UUP didn't shout about NI contributing towards the UK subvention to the EC in the 80's/90's, thus providing funds to the Good People of the 23 Counties.

Surely NI must have itself been a net recipient of UK tax money most of that time? (it certainly is at present)
Even if that were not the case I have other issues with the whole "we are just paying back the money we got from the UK via Brussels so its just making things even really" argument.

Adyx wrote:

Even if Scotland leaves, that still leaves the UK of Britain & Northern Ireland.

We could call it the partially United Kingdom of some of Great Britain and a corner of Ireland...

marco murphy

Lol recognition of Wales has finally ceased.

Zambia

Folks this is all very well but the loyalist element up here would never sit still for this idea. like someone said you will have to sit still and wait for them all to die a very boring death. I am afraid i cant ever see a the like of East Belfast , the Shankill etc bowing to this inevitablity you speak of.

And as someone said earlier the South can not afford to force them by Police and Armed troops.

Just sit back and let your kids sort this out.

marco murphy

Zambia232 wrote:

Folks this is all very well but the loyalist element up here would never sit still for this idea. like someone said you will have to sit still and wait for them all to die a very boring death. I am afraid i cant ever see a the like of East Belfast , the Shankill etc bowing to this inevitablity you speak of.

And as someone said earlier the South can not afford to force them by Police and Armed troops.

Just sit back and let your kids sort this out.

They will have nothing to give out about if the people decide unity is what they want. However, if that small group of people against it remains, I think they could get used to the idea. Jackie McDonald for instance said he could get used to it provided nationalists (SF) played the game

It's simply going to take a while to build trust.

darkman2

Zambia232 wrote:

Folks this is all very well but the loyalist element up here would never sit still for this idea. like someone said you will have to sit still and wait for them all to die a very boring death. I am afraid i cant ever see a the like of East Belfast , the Shankill etc bowing to this inevitablity you speak of.

And as someone said earlier the South can not afford to force them by Police and Armed troops.

Just sit back and let your kids sort this out.

No one is talking about forcing anybody into anything. However if your suggesting we dont have the means to assemble a military and police force capable of dealing with potential trouble in a United Ireland well IMO thats just wrong. The size of the army here can double with an extra 1 billion Euro per year to approximately just over 50,000 full time and reservists. It should be that level anyway but thats for another forum. If nessacary im sure the funding is there to go much further then that - only if its needed. The present army (full time) is, despite popular belief, now getting very well equipped.

In terms of the Gardai - that would also really have to at least double in size to, once again, where it should be anyway. Unless something drastic happens the economy in the near future this is well affordable if absolutely nessacary. Thats the trappings of a working economy.

It also must be noted that alot of the British army's problems in the North were actually self inflicted in the early 70's (The book 'A History of the IRA' is a good read about that). I somehow doubt we would quite make the same mistakes. Also the British army had to deal with both Republicans and Loyalists.

Zambia

Poblachtach wrote:

They will have nothing to give out about if the people decide unity is what they want.

It's simply going to take a while to build trust.

You went on those chat sites do you think the will of the majority will change there mind.

Did the will of the majority of N.I change the PIRA's mind, it all depends on your iont of view.

I agree with you on the trust thing , but we will be very old to see that.

Ulster9

I think first of all peoples perceptions need to change regarding what a United Ireland would be like.
Personnally I would be of the view that political autonomy would have to remain in Stormont in a United Ireland.A constitution would need to be reviewed to include recognition of the British/Unionist heritage in Ireland.
I think a new flag and anthem would be necessary to give all traditions a sense of ownership of the Irish identity.The tricolour and anthem have failed to be unifying symbols of Ireland, time to look again.Consider a green flag with the shamrock and/or maybe the harp.Unionists generally look favourably on the green flag and shamrock as a neutral symbol that both sides can identify with.Just like in Ulster both sides favour the Red Hand.
Some people are assuming that independence for Scotland is a certainty, I beg to differ here.I would be glad to see Scottish independence but i think when it comes to an actual vote many Scots will be cautious and shy away from independence for a while yet.
Irish unity i suspect will happen along similar lines to the integration of the EU, while many Unionists become comfortable with powersharing and North-South co-operation i believe London will become less of a factor in everyday politics and providing the all-Ireland economy continues to grow i think unionist will begin to look increasingly to Dublin and not London as long as the mutual respect is maintain through the evolving political system.

LordSutch

Firstly, if Scotland leaves the UK then the term Britain & Northern Ireland will cease to exist ~ seeing as Britain is an island (which includes Scotland irrespective of their Political position).

So you would have the United Kingdom of (England, N.Ireland & Wales) the term 'Britain' being obsolete unless used in a Geographical context.

Somebody also raised the question "What benefit would a United Ireland bring to the South"? Answer "No benefit what-so-ever if a sizeable proportion of the people up-North do not want to join with the South" > they are British, their flag is the British flag, they sing God Save the Queen, they like their Red Post Boxes, they rely on their NHS, they see Britain as the mainland, they are also culturally 'British' and are simply 'a different people' from the Irish Nationalist people on this island (in my opinion).

Zambia

Good post Ulster9 , I think i always considered a straight forward engulfing of the North into the South. Maybe if we considered what a united Ireland might be more than what we think it has to be

A new Irish Flag ...theres an idea

I like the big green flag Idea.

Oh and a United Ireland couldnt be neutral it would have to be at least allied to the rest of the UK.

Fratton Fred

What about the people who live there, would they have to give up their UK passports?

If not, you will basically have a large number of "British" ciizens living in a corner of Ireland, how would that work? If they remained "British" would they have the right to vote in all elections, currently Brits are only allowed to vote in certain elections here.

Regardless of the politics, the administration could take years to sort out.

marco murphy

I would have thought the current flag is sufficient, given to Ireland with the theme of equality. However if it keeps everyone happy to change it it would'nt bother me. Scotlands independence is inevitable to me, the SNP look set to top the poll and 51% or more of Scotland want independence. However when it will happen is another thing.

Zambia

Fratton Fred wrote:

What about the people who live there, would they have to give up their UK passports?

If not, you will basically have a large number of "British" ciizens living in a corner of Ireland, how would that work? If they remained "British" would they have the right to vote in all elections, currently Brits are only allowed to vote in certain elections here.

Regardless of the politics, the administration could take years to sort out.

Thats not fair Irish Citizens are allowed vote in the North. They voted in the last Election.

Passports should not be affected they should simply have equal rights to all Irish Citizens.

The PSNI would have to merge with the Gardai, the home regiments merged with the Irish Army.

The county councils taken over , the NHS would have to give some assets over to the new Northern Health Board.

The changing of the flag would be a very interesting side thread.

Ulster9

Somebody also raised the question "What benefit would a United Ireland bring to the South"? Answer "No benefit what-so-ever if a sizeable proportion of the people up-North do not want to join with the South" > they are British, their flag is the British flag, they sing God Save the Queen, they like their Red Post Boxes, they rely on their NHS, they see Britain as the mainland, they are also culturally 'British' and are simply 'a different people' from the Irish Nationalist people on this island (in my opinion).

Too simplified, many unionists do actually see themselves as Irish also but not in your definition of the sense.So we must try and find an answer to incorporate everyones sense of Irishness.We would be a state of 6 million people and not 4 million with more resources to pool together we could kick on and build on the economic success we currently have.We shouldnt be distracted by the naysayers who fear it may cost us a few bob.They in my view lack vision for this country and are like businessmen who dont take risks and spend money on their business to try and build it up.Same principle applies.

Oh and a United Ireland couldnt be neutral it would have to be at least allied to the rest of the UK.

It would still be neutral as the whole island would be sovereign.Anyway does Shannon not already prove our neutrality is compromised.

What about the people who live there, would they have to give up their UK passports?

If not, you will basically have a large number of "British" ciizens living in a corner of Ireland, how would that work? If they remained "British" would they have the right to vote in all elections, currently Brits are only allowed to vote in certain elections here.

They could have the right to retain British passports or hold dual-nationality but obviously they would not be resident so therefore would not vote to British parliament.Perhaps they could still have representation in House of Lords.

I would have thought the current flag is sufficient, given to Ireland with the theme of equality.

The current flag although many Irish have a affection for it, it is a political flag that lables people as republican(FF,FG,SF,LB,PD,GP).You can be Irish but not necessarliy republican in your politics.

johnnyskeleton

ninty9er wrote:

NI had a population of almost 1.7 million in 2001, so presumably it's now heading for 2 million. Luxumbourg, Malta and Iceland all have fractions of this population and are viable eceonmies....Innovation not population is what makes a country viable.

...

I'm all for giving the approx 2 million people in Northern Ireland a republic all of their very own

I tend to agree, and I'm sure that is how Paisely would see it if what the OP suggests is true. I would ask the OP if he has any evidence to back up the foundations of his argument, namely that if Scotland left the UK, the English would have to offload NI?

It seems to me that this thread is not about preparing for a United Ireland, nor is it based on any real possibility that it will happen in the near future. Instead, it seems to be more about what if there was a United Ireland.

marco murphy

Interestesting quote..

"My...words to my...country-men are these: It has always been a pride to a man, no matter what part of the country he came from, to say he was an Irishman." - James Craig

darkman2

If Northern Ireland became an independent entity it would be inherently unstable. Thats the nature of the 6 counties as it is and has always been. It is not a normal society. It is not viable economically or socially. Perhaps the second being the straw that breaks the camels back over any thoughts of independence. Of course if you were happy to see an independent Northern Ireland tear itself appart whilst remaining a hell-hole of sectarianism and bigotry and accept the consequences of that for the Island you would probrably think twice on whether you wanted to see that part of the Island actually have a go at governing itself.

You see this is a new thing now for loyalists. I dont like the thought of it being fed tbh because I would fear the consequences for this island if they had autonomy. I personally would be angry and would never accept it (although I would not be able to do anything about it). Thats my point of view. You would see civil war up there, Ive little doubt, if the notion of independence for the 6 counties raised its head. Could you imagine it? - Just leaving them to their own devices - Unionists taking majority rule. Never mind nationalists in the North - how could we accept that based on the past?

What do you think would happen to Catholics/Nationalists (again) in the North if Unionists had their way in an independent NI free of the shackles of the UK which brought them into line these last few decades. With no control from either London or Dublin. A free for all. Im sorry but thats scary for not just the North but the whole island.

Zambia

Not directed at any post in paticular but I have not heard one person up here think and Independant NI is an option. The divide was Loyalist and Nationalist there was and is no third option.

flogen

Poblachtach wrote:

Scotlands independence is inevitable to me, the SNP look set to top the poll and 51% or more of Scotland want independence. However when it will happen is another thing.

Well that's based on one poll, while the SNP are polling around the 30-35% mark (IIRC). That means that they'll need to form a coalition Government, most likely with the Lib Dems, and if not a minority Government - this will make their promise of a referendum far more difficult IMO and it's by no means a cert - nor is a "yes" should that referendum take place.

ninty9er

darkman2 wrote:

If Northern Ireland became an independent entity it would be inherently unstable. Thats the nature of the 6 counties as it is and has always been. It is not a normal society. It is not viable economically or socially. Perhaps the second being the straw that breaks the camels back over any thoughts of independence. Of course if you were happy to see an independent Northern Ireland tear itself appart whilst remaining a hell-hole of sectarianism and bigotry and accept the consequences of that for the Island you would probrably think twice on whether you wanted to see that part of the Island actually have a go at governing itself.

What do you think would happen to Catholics/Nationalists (again) in the North if Unionists had their way in an independent NI free of the shackles of the UK which brought them into line these last few decades. With no control from either London or Dublin. A free for all. Im sorry but thats scary for not just the North but the whole island.

I (personally: do not attribute to anyone other than me) think it's a given that any move in the way of civil war in a 1st world civilised country would see a strom of UN troops on the ground within 3-4 days. Politicains know this and would be stupid to think that they could operate on Loyalist/Nationalist basis in the event of an independent Northern Ireland.
There is a support network there in the embodiment of England and Ireland for the eventuality of a "Republic of Northern Ireland".

on the flag and anthem...let's just say it took long enough to get them so go swivel if you think the good people of this republic would part easily with them. The anthem in particular is a "no-go"

Zambia232 wrote:

Not directed at any post in paticular but I have not heard one person up here think and Independant NI is an option. The divide was Loyalist and Nationalist there was and is no third option.

This is a position fuelled by the 2 governments, neither of which has seen the big herd of elephants on the negotiating table. I've directed this at 2 politicians whose responses lead to me remembering; Dermot Ahern and Martin Mansergh.

Dermot said something along the lines of: before any prospect of a UI can be achieved, the Brits have to restructure the public services and tax regime so that they are the same as ours, but that inevitably he sees no future in an independent NI

Mansergh responded with the economic viablilty line...then again I'm sure the same was said of Ireland in 21,37 and 49, but where there's a will there's a claimant:D