Time to prepare for a United Ireland even if it does not happen?

darkman2

ninty9er wrote:

I (personally: do not attribute to anyone other than me) think it's a given that any move in the way of civil war in a 1st world civilised country would see a strom of UN troops on the ground within 3-4 days. Politicains know this and would be stupid to think that they could operate on Loyalist/Nationalist basis in the event of an independent Northern Ireland.
There is a support network there in the embodiment of England and Ireland for the eventuality of a "Republic of Northern Ireland".

on the flag and anthem...let's just say it took long enough to get them so go swivel if you think the good people of this republic would part easily with them. The anthem in particular is a "no-go"



This is a position fuelled by the 2 governments, neither of which has seen the big herd of elephants on the negotiating table. I've directed this at 2 politicians whose responses lead to me remembering; Dermot Ahern and Martin Mansergh.

Dermot said something along the lines of: before any prospect of a UI can be achieved, the Brits have to restructure the public services and tax regime so that they are the same as ours, but that inevitably he sees no future in an independent NI

Mansergh responded with the economic viablilty line...then again I'm sure the same was said of Ireland in 21,37 and 49, but where there's a will there's a claimant:D

Maybe I am misreading this post but in the event of an independent NI (which will never happen) we would have to take control because that would be a threat to the entire island. It would be a threat to our country. We could not possibly allow a Unionist majority government there alone, never mind the reaction of the Nationalist population to it. It would be civil war. Like I said earlier - this nonsense about an independent statelet is simple fanatical unionism at its worst - i.e anything but the Republic. Its nonsense and best not entertained in my view.

The EU would, of course, provide assistance to us in a UI if we needed it but we really should not need it.

Voipjunkie

My personal opinion is that an Independent state is a non runner given the recent past

IMO the scenario around the 6 counties when it leaves the union is that very little will change the structures in place ( or soon to be in place) would continue except ultimate control would be in Dublin not London
So the assemably and all the safe guards for the minority which would be the unionists would continue.
The PSNI and the ombudsman etc would all continue.
The UK would be expected to continue to contribute to the north in the short to medium term at least in much the same way that this state is starting to invest.
The so called East West bodies would continue as we would still have a substantial number of unionists even if they were in a minority.

IMO that is the whole point of the good friday institutions that we get the 2 communities sharing power and working together and that way of working would continue no matter what jurisdiction the 6 counties are in that is the best way to provide stability so nothing changes even though everything changes.

E92

I am of the view that all political parties in Ireland say they want a 'United Ireland' because they know that to say otherwise is political suicide(FF are 'the Republican Party', as one FFer told me 'it sounds better than saying we are a nationalist party to the electorate, which is what we really are', Fine Gael used to have the slogan 'the United Ireland party')
But they never want it to happen(apart from SF) in reality. You must remember that HRH's government gives Northern Ireland £10 bn every year. Now thats fine in a country of 60 million people, but in Ireland,thats equivalant to having to double the countrys health budget. I think that a 'United Ireland' would be a disaster at present on that ground alone, and remember that Ireland has made herself more different to the UK in recent times, like we now use kilometres on the roads, while the UK still uses miles. We use the Euro and they still use Pounds. These are small but very significant differences; if a United Ireland is to happen,then the UK has to change its ways, they have to be more like 'us' and we have to be more like them. I think that ALL commerations of this person and that person who did this and that(who most people couldnt care about) for 'their country' on both sides should be banned up there. The two traditions have to integrate and stop this nonsense of we're better than ye, and oh the Brits are so bad and the South cant be interfering with a foreign state rubbish. Its time to move on. Stop going over old ground. What happened in the past is what happened in the past; the British certainly were no angels up there, and the Loyalist paramilitaries were disgraceful but then again we had the IRA doing all the atrocious things they did too, and basically we showed that we were no better than them either. I dont like what the British did but I dont like what the ra did either, and therefore have no grievances against them. Period. Its 2007. I realise that a lot of people have to swallow their pride in doing this but come on. We're all in this toghther. I totally agree with more Ireland/NI cooperation(but I do not want to see Irish taxpayers money being spent on a 'foreign state'(as FF have recently done), especially when that 'foreign state' has access to 60 million people and and is hardly economically deprived), I think it is to the benefit of this country and NI that we cooperate with each other. Some of us in the Republic dont like to admit it but we do loads of cooperation with those on the 'mainland' anyway, and I want to see further improvements in our relationship with them, the Irish after all are supposed to be the land of a hundred thousand welcomes, and we are part of the EU and we joined it cause they joined it. They are our number 1 trading partner.
I would like to see it happen some day, but that day is a long way away, and we'd wanting to be loving the Brits and vice versa before it is really a runner. I think it wont be for another 50 years before it happens, but I think it is inevitable that it will happen.

As regards Scotland,it is absoultely true to say that while they dont like the English, and being Governed by Westminster, they do like being British. If they want independence from Westminster, that presumably means no longer being part of the United Kingdom,and whilst they love being able to do their own thing, and have less and less to do with the English, if they thought that they were no longer British citizens as a result of independance, I think they wouldnt be long changing their minds.

johnnyskeleton

Poblachtach wrote:

Interestesting quote..

"My...words to my...country-men are these: It has always been a pride to a man, no matter what part of the country he came from, to say he was an Irishman." - James Craig

A lot of the original unionists considered themselves to be nationalists. Edward Carson considered himself to be the first true Irish nationalist. He also supported the catholic university (i.e the forerunner to UCD). However, if you look underneath these two things -a) he wanted Ireland to be independent because he saw Westminister giving Catholics rights, and though that an Ireland run by the ascendancy would be a better alternative and b) he didn't want Catholics entering Trinity. So the Craig quote probably comes from the time when they thought the southern government would collapse and that they could swoop in and take over from the catholics (whom they assumed were not capable of running a country). Dev was our Taoiseach at the time, and he was busy trying to put us back in the stone age at the time, so who could blame Craig?

darkman2 wrote:

If Northern Ireland became an independent entity it would be inherently unstable. Thats the nature of the 6 counties as it is and has always been. It is not a normal society. It is not viable economically or socially.

What is it about being independent that would turn NI from a fairly strong economy with a steady, if uneasy peace agreement into a chaotic blot on the map? Independence does not mean that the UK and Ireland will turn their backs on it, but you are basing your argument on the following:

1) If Scotland leaves the UK, the UK will break up(see E92's post)
2) England will then have to dump the UK on the Republic (even if this is against the majority's wishes)
3) NI is not economically or socially viable independently, but it is economically and socially viable if it is attached to the ROI. Why? Just because.
4) If NI were made independent, England, Ireland, America, the EU and the UN would completely ignore it, and the people of NI, although at the moment they overwhelmingly want peace, would overnight become savages, all because NI was no longer part of the UK.

In my view, a UI will lead to more violence than an independent NI would.

As was pointed out by myself and ninty9er, there are much smaller, much more fractured countries that are independent and viable. Kosovo is a good example re: social viability (they are not ignored by the UN, so why would NI). Cyprus is in a similar position to NI, and the EU is trying to integrate it as an independent state. No-one would suggest that Cyprus is not economically or socially viable.

But all that aside, no country is truly independent when it is within the EU.

darkman2 wrote:

It would be a threat to our country. We could not possibly allow a Unionist majority government there alone, never mind the reaction of the Nationalist population to it.

An independent NI would neither be a threat to our country, nor would, in my view, the current powersharing arrangements simply dissappear. Don't forget, we are talking about what would happen if the UK ceased to exist and that would be the reason NI got independence. This in no way suggests that the interested governments would stop caring about NI, nor would it mean that the assembly would fall apart. Since the majority of people in NI want peace, they are not going to suddenly want war because they are no longer part of the UK. Some parts of the population might however, want war if they were forced to join the Republic.

Zambia232 wrote:

Not directed at any post in paticular but I have not heard one person up here think and Independant NI is an option. The divide was Loyalist and Nationalist there was and is no third option.

The OP suggested that if the UK broke apart, then Ireland would have to take on NI. On the contrary, I believe Paisely would rather have an independent NI than become part of a UI, and I think he would probably have his way. This is apart from my views on the likelyhood of the UK breaking up at all, or that if it did England would simply dump NI on the ROI.

It seems to me that this thread is not based on a very solid argument, and is concerned with the question "What if there was going to be a united Ireland? How should we prepare?" rather than the original post, which, in my view, is based on very uncertain postulates, and does not paint a very convincing picture.

LordSutch

Several contributors have mentioned the need for a New Flag and/or Anthem should we ever wish to genuinely 'Unite' with our Northern Unionist folk, hence my New design for an "All island ~ all Ireland flag" which could be used for certain 'mixed' team events as in the Rugby or Football? or better still, this new flag could by used and flown all over this island in the (unlikely) event of a 'United Ireland' sometime in the distant future! ~ Please see attachment for New "all island ~ all Ireland flag"

Any other New designs?

flogen

ArthurF wrote:

Several contributors have mentioned the need for a New Flag and/or Anthem should we ever wish to genuinely 'Unite' with our Northern Unionist folk, hence my New design for an "All island ~ all Ireland flag" which could be used for certain 'mixed' team events as in the Rugby or Football? or better still, this new flag could by used and flown all over this island in the (unlikely) event of a 'United Ireland' sometime in the distant future! ~ Please see attachment for New "all island ~ all Ireland flag"

Any other New designs?

I love it - so where the current tricolour is based on the "peace between Nationalists and Orangemen/Unionists" theory, this one is based on the "no peace between..." theory

marco murphy

Beat that for a flag

Zambia

ninty9er wrote:

on the flag and anthem...let's just say it took long enough to get them so go swivel if you think the good people of this republic would part easily with them. The anthem in particular is a "no-go"

Intractable positions are not the way forward Im afraid.

darkman2

johnnyskeleton wrote:

A lot of the original unionists considered themselves to be nationalists. Edward Carson considered himself to be the first true Irish nationalist. He also supported the catholic university (i.e the forerunner to UCD). However, if you look underneath these two things -a) he wanted Ireland to be independent because he saw Westminister giving Catholics rights, and though that an Ireland run by the ascendancy would be a better alternative and b) he didn't want Catholics entering Trinity. So the Craig quote probably comes from the time when they thought the southern government would collapse and that they could swoop in and take over from the catholics (whom they assumed were not capable of running a country). Dev was our Taoiseach at the time, and he was busy trying to put us back in the stone age at the time, so who could blame Craig?



What is it about being independent that would turn NI from a fairly strong economy with a steady, if uneasy peace agreement into a chaotic blot on the map? Independence does not mean that the UK and Ireland will turn their backs on it, but you are basing your argument on the following:

1) If Scotland leaves the UK, the UK will break up(see E92's post)
2) England will then have to dump the UK on the Republic (even if this is against the majority's wishes)
3) NI is not economically or socially viable independently, but it is economically and socially viable if it is attached to the ROI. Why? Just because.
4) If NI were made independent, England, Ireland, America, the EU and the UN would completely ignore it, and the people of NI, although at the moment they overwhelmingly want peace, would overnight become savages, all because NI was no longer part of the UK.

In my view, a UI will lead to more violence than an independent NI would.

As was pointed out by myself and ninty9er, there are much smaller, much more fractured countries that are independent and viable. Kosovo is a good example re: social viability (they are not ignored by the UN, so why would NI). Cyprus is in a similar position to NI, and the EU is trying to integrate it as an independent state. No-one would suggest that Cyprus is not economically or socially viable.

But all that aside, no country is truly independent when it is within the EU.



An independent NI would neither be a threat to our country, nor would, in my view, the current powersharing arrangements simply dissappear. Don't forget, we are talking about what would happen if the UK ceased to exist and that would be the reason NI got independence. This in no way suggests that the interested governments would stop caring about NI, nor would it mean that the assembly would fall apart. Since the majority of people in NI want peace, they are not going to suddenly want war because they are no longer part of the UK. Some parts of the population might however, want war if they were forced to join the Republic.



The OP suggested that if the UK broke apart, then Ireland would have to take on NI. On the contrary, I believe Paisely would rather have an independent NI than become part of a UI, and I think he would probably have his way. This is apart from my views on the likelyhood of the UK breaking up at all, or that if it did England would simply dump NI on the ROI.

It seems to me that this thread is not based on a very solid argument, and is concerned with the question "What if there was going to be a united Ireland? How should we prepare?" rather than the original post, which, in my view, is based on very uncertain postulates, and does not paint a very convincing picture.

Ive read and taken in this post but let me make the point Ive already made.

Nationalists in NI dont want an independent NI. They want unification with us. They wont except an independent NI. This a stupid proposition put forward by stupid loyalists as far as Im concerned and to entertain such an idiotic notion politically would have very detrimental effects on us. Like I said earlier, I, and very many people here would never accept that either. Do you honestly think we would allow Unionist majority rule up there again? After the attempt at ethnic cleansing in the past? Dont tell me how much they have change or any of that rubbish. They have not changed on neither side. The question is, in this independent NI, which bigots will be in control? BTW when they are all starving as a result of their 3rd world economy I take it those in favour of independence will have no problem excepting further aid from us.

Ulster9

Maybe you havent noticed but the North-South Institutions are in place to prepare the ground for Irish Unity.Peter Hain is on record as saying Northern Irelands economic future lies in an all-Ireland economy.

But they never want it to happen(apart from SF) in reality. You must remember that HRH's government gives Northern Ireland £10 bn every year. Now thats fine in a country of 60 million people, but in Ireland,thats equivalant to having to double the countrys health budget. I think that a 'United Ireland' would be a disaster at present on that ground alone, and remember that Ireland has made herself more different to the UK in recent times, like we now use kilometres on the roads, while the UK still uses miles. We use the Euro and they still use Pounds. These are small but very significant differences; if a United Ireland is to happen,then the UK has to change its ways, they have to be more like 'us' and we have to be more like them. I think that ALL commerations of this person and that person who did this and that(who most people couldnt care about) for 'their country' on both sides should be banned up there. The two traditions have to integrate and stop this nonsense of we're better than ye, and oh the Brits are so bad and the South cant be interfering with a foreign state rubbish. Its time to move on. Stop going over old ground. What happened in the past is what happened in the past; the British certainly were no angels up there, and the Loyalist paramilitaries were disgraceful but then again we had the IRA doing all the atrocious things they did too, and basically we showed that we were no better than them either. I dont like what the British did but I dont like what the ra did either, and therefore have no grievances against them. Period. Its 2007. I realise that a lot of people have to swallow their pride in doing this but come on. We're all in this toghther. I totally agree with more Ireland/NI cooperation(but I do not want to see Irish taxpayers money being spent on a 'foreign state'(as FF have recently done), especially when that 'foreign state' has access to 60 million people and and is hardly economically deprived), I think it is to the benefit of this country and NI that we cooperate with each other. Some of us in the Republic dont like to admit it but we do loads of cooperation with those on the 'mainland' anyway, and I want to see further improvements in our relationship with them, the Irish after all are supposed to be the land of a hundred thousand welcomes, and we are part of the EU and we joined it cause they joined it. They are our number 1 trading partner.
I would like to see it happen some day, but that day is a long way away, and we'd wanting to be loving the Brits and vice versa before it is really a runner. I think it wont be for another 50 years before it happens, but I think it is inevitable that it will happen.

Maybe you havent been to Northern Ireland but it is part of Ireland, and it doesnt seem all that foreign to me.So are you saying you consider Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh,Down and Antrim as foreign as Sweden?As of the " Mainland" what land are you refering to?
The money being spent on cross-border projects will benefit the whole island of Ireland as they are aimed specifically at roads linking to the Northwest taking their natural passageway through the North.Also funding for Derry city airport(Good for Donegal and Tourism).

Also people talking about a civil war in the event of Northern Ireland becoming independent dont know what they are talking about.Do you think Loyalists are gonna start something when they dont have the comfort of the British State behind them.On a demographic scale there are Nationalist majoritys in Foyle,Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh and South Down.The high concentration of unionists in Antrim and North Down is what keeps Northern Ireland in the UK.The divide is 53/44 and other, hardly an overwhelming majority.

LordSutch

Sounds like a United Ireland is done & dusted, & virtually a done deal ~ right?

But for the fact that in reality it cant and wont happen in the forseeable future if at all, due to the little fact of a Unionist majority ~ and if a UI does occour it will be because all the people living on this island will come to some agreement that enables 'Britishness' & 'Irishness' to thrive side by side in a 'so called' United Ireland.

As regards parts of the North like Londonderry being virtually the same as parts of the South (yes they are), as are many parts of the South virtually the same as Cornwall or Scotland! try driving through any European border Town and you will only see subtle differences as you cross over, which is not to say that seperate States are not Govererned with subtle differences.

Ulster9

ArthurF wrote:

Sounds like a United Ireland is done & dusted, & virtually a done deal ~ right?

But for the fact that in reality it cant and wont happen in the forseeable future if at all, due to the little fact of a Unionist majority ~ and if a UI does occour it will be because all the people living on this island will come to some agreement that enables 'Britishness' & 'Irishness' to thrive side by side in a 'so called' United Ireland.

As regards parts of the North like Londonderry being virtually the same as parts of the South (yes they are), as are many parts of the South virtually the same as Cornwall or Scotland! try driving through any European border Town and you will only see subtle differences as you cross over, which is not to say that seperate States are not Govererned with subtle differences.

We are well aware of a unionist majority and the workings of democracy although our past has shown us how the British/Unionists disrespected Irelands majority right to self-determination because it didnt suit them.We have all moved on for the greater good of peace since.
It makes me laugh when pro-union people try to make Northern Ireland out to be as british as other parts of the UK knowing full well its not.

Does Cornwall have towns with Irish names like Ballymena and Derry?.I prefere to call it Derry since the majority of people who live there wish that to be the case.
Northern Ireland is quintessentially Irish in culture,geography and history.It is also part of the ancient Irish province of Ulster.Some unionists in their attempts to express their britishness( no problem with that) even deny any link to the island of their birth.

LordSutch

Ulster9 wrote:

We are well aware of a unionist majority and the workings of democracy although our past has shown us how the British/Unionists disrespected Irelands majority right to self-determination because it didnt suit them.We have all moved on for the greater good of peace since.
It makes me laugh when pro-union people try to make Northern Ireland out to be as british as other parts of the UK knowing full well its not.

Does Cornwall have towns with Irish names like Ballymena and Derry?.I prefere to call it Derry since the majority of people who live there wish that to be the case.
Northern Ireland is quintessentially Irish in culture,geography and history.It is also part of the ancient Irish province of Ulster.Some unionists in their attempts to express their britishness( no problem with that) even deny any link to the island of their birth.

Funnily enough, I find the North even more British than many parts of England, and I say that as somebody who has lived in both parts of the UK.

Northern Irish culture is no less British than Welsh, Scottish, Cornish, or even Yorkshire culture ~ it all depends on your perspective on what 'British' means or what British culture stands for ~ Paisley is a true Irish man, but first and foremost he is very 'British', meaning that he identifies with the 'Main' cultural identity & Family of these islands, whereas on the other hand I think I am correct in saying that Irish Republicans/ Nationalists shun any idea of being part of the wider 'British' family which includes the Scots, Welsh, Cornish, English, Yorkshire folk, etc, etc, etc . . . .

(Sorry if I have Irish Nationalism wrong, but that is the understanding I have).

/Andy\

ArthurF wrote:

Funnily enough, I find the North even more British than many parts of England, and I say that as somebody who has lived in both parts of the UK
.

LMAO

ninty9er

ArthurF wrote:

Sounds like a United Ireland is done & dusted, & virtually a done deal ~ right?

But for the fact that in reality it cant and wont happen in the forseeable future if at all, due to the little fact of a Unionist majority ~ and if a UI does occour it will be because all the people living on this island will come to some agreement that enables 'Britishness' & 'Irishness' to thrive side by side in a 'so called' United Ireland.

Is this the way that the Germans, who were supposed to have had one nationality were supposed to unify...go visit East Germany, the wall might as well still be up and there's a growing number of younger people who are of this opinion in Germany. I had to study it last year as part of my "Business German"...will never be of any good to me, but at least it shows, even people of the same culture when divided for even 50 years by a border, can't unify totally no matter how much will is there.

Of course a unionist majority wouldn't hold a government. There are constitutional safeguards against that that can be put in place, such as the constitutional safeguards against dictatorships put in place after the fall of Nazi Germany.

Ulster9

Funnily enough, I find the North even more British than many parts of England, and I say that as somebody who has lived in both parts of the UK.

Northern Irish culture is no less British than Welsh, Scottish, Cornish, or even Yorkshire culture ~ it all depends on your perspective on what 'British' means or what British culture stands for ~ Paisley is a true Irish man, but first and foremost he is very 'British', meaning that he identifies with the 'Main' cultural identity & Family of these islands, whereas on the other hand I think I am correct in saying that Irish Republicans/ Nationalists shun any idea of being part of the wider 'British' family which includes the Scots, Welsh, Cornish, English, Yorkshire folk, etc, etc, etc . . . .

(Sorry if I have Irish Nationalism wrong, but that is the understanding I have).

I beg to differ.I would ask you what is the british culture that you see in Northern Ireland?Is it not less british in the sense that it is not Britain?I would say that there is no real distinct British culture and that the island of Britain itself is an mix of cultures.What makes Northern Irish a british culture, is it just because it is a soveiregn part of the United Kingdom but remember not part of the island of Britain.Sure the Unionist people of Northern Ireland are loyal to the Queen so much so that would embarrass ordinary British people living in Britain.I can recognise Irish culture from its music,language etc but would find it hard to define a british culture other than maybe a middle English royalist way of life.
Why should Northern Ireland be classed as a British culture just because slightly over half the population could be classed as unionist.The only British culture i see in Northern Ireland is the Orange Order in its expression of loyalty to uphold a sectarian Monarchy.Eventhough it could be said this is a Irish identity as it originated on this island and is part of the diversity of irish culture.

Fratton Fred

Ulster9 wrote:

The only British culture i see in Northern Ireland is the Orange Order in its expression of loyalty to uphold a sectarian Monarchy.

If you consider that to be British, you are very mistaken.

LordSutch

Ulster9, looks like you really need to read-up on Britishness and what being British & part of the UK actually means, you also seem to have a very narrow & shallow understanding of the term 'British' but then again (depending on your age), that might be understandable?

I also had a very narow view of what it meant to be Jewish, Israeli, or Palestinian until I went to live in Israel, Jordan & Egypt for six months .................

Ulster9

Please enlighten me so as to what it is to be british?What defines british culture or britishness?

Fratton Fred

Ulster9 wrote:

Please enlighten me so as to what it is to be british?What defines british culture or britishness?

It has been debated for years, but the thing is, "British" is not a nationality many people claim to have. We are al English, Welsh etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1701843.stm

I would argue, that the country within Britain that would benefit most from a break up of the union, is England, yet England is always considered to be the one which is trying to holding it all together. In a recent poll, 51% of Scots wanted an independant Scotland, in the same poll, 52% of English people wanted an independant Scotland.;)

LordSutch

Fish & Chips, the Royal Family, Two World Wars, Coronation Street, Going to University in England or Scotland, Curry, The Royal Mail, NHS, Fair Play, Union Jack, Religion (various), Cricket, Rugby, Darts, Rounders, Sunday School, Panto, Marmite, Tommy Cooper, Joey Dunlop, Van Morrisson, Mrs T (Love/ Hate)? Billy Connolly, Hugh Grant, English Scots, Irish, Welsh, Footie ………………


Being British can be very hard to define, and there are many definitions of being British (some English people even think that they alone are the British) but suffice to say, if you are British you know you are, and you proclaim it without hesitation.

Do not confuse being British with being English (they overlap).

Being British can mean many things to many people. Many people who live on the island of Britain profess (not to be British) even though their family roots might have been in Britain for hundreds of years (take Andy Murray for example) the young and brilliant tennis player born and raised in Britain (Scotland), who at every opportunity puts down his Britishness, or on the other hand take Gordon Brown the Scottish Chancellor of the exchequer who Shouts in the House of Commons about how Great it is to be British.

Take David Trimble, Ian Paisley, Gerry Adams, or Martin Mc Guinness and there you have the real meaning of Britishness, which is so close to not being British as makes little difference! Adams as far as I am aware was educated in a British University (Queens~Belfast) and he enjoys all the benefits of that British system, yet still, he hates everything British while at the same time he asks for more money off Gordon Brown.

Paisley & Trimble will wear a Poppy to remember the 30 Thousand+ Irish Ward dead + all the other British dead in the two World Wars (this is very British) while Adams & Mc Guinness will refuse to remember or acknowledge the War dead.

Or take football for example; If the Republic is playing footie against Spain, the English, Scots Welsh & the Nordies will all cheer for the Republic (thats Britishness) even though they know full well that the Republic will cheer for Spain when they play England!

To be honest, there are so many examples of Britishness that I could be here all day,

Why not have a look in Google to see other definitions of ‘British’ and good luck …………:)

Finally > I would say that in my opinion the 'Orange Order' is not a very ‘British’ institution.

Fratton Fred

how on earth could you miss out the greatest British institution of them all...HP Sauce:D

Oh, there are a lot of people in Ireland, even amongst those who post on these boards, who get confused between England and Britain.

Ulster9

I am sorry ArthurF but that doesnt wash.

Fish & Chips, the Royal Family, Two World Wars, Coronation Street, Going to University in England or Scotland, Curry, The Royal Mail, NHS, Fair Play, Union Jack, Religion (various), Cricket, Rugby, Darts, Rounders, Sunday School, Panto, Marmite, Tommy Cooper, Joey Dunlop, Van Morrisson, Mrs T (Love/ Hate)? Billy Connolly, Hugh Grant, English Scots, Irish, Welsh, Footie ………………

People may have a sense of Britishness from being a british nationalist,ie being from the isle of Britain.The majority of Irish people would view with contempt the notion of being labeled as British.How could you label somebody the nationality of an island they are not from.I am not British in any way because i m not from Britain.Very simple really.I think Gerry Adams would not be happy at being labelled as British.He lives in a part of Ireland that is under British sovernty and has apposed it all is life.For your information Gerry Adams did not attend University.Ireland has and still endures British colonisation in Northern Ireland but it doesnt make Irish people in some way british.Maybe you should stick arrogance in your list, thats definitely British

Zambia

Best quote I ever heard was in an Ali G interview with a DUP/UUP MLA

Ali : Is you Irish
DUP : No Im British
Ali : So is like.. you here on Holiday

Ulster9

Finally > I would say that in my opinion the 'Orange Order' is not a very ‘British’ institution.

Finally being selective here now.The Orange Order pledges loyalty to your Royal family.Why is it not very British?Many of its members claim to be British.They wave Union Jacks and demand to march the Queens highway.Is it because they are sectarian.Can a Catholic become the head of the British State or any other religion for that matter?

Ulster9

Best quote I ever heard was in an Ali G interview with a DUP/UUP MLA

Ali : Is you Irish
DUP : No Im British
Ali : So is like.. you here on Holiday

A simple and great joke can expose the ridiculousness of British interference in Ireland

Fratton Fred

Ulster9 wrote:

Finally being selective here now.The Orange Order pledges loyalty to your Royal family.Why is it not very British?Many of its members claim to be British.They wave Union Jacks and demand to march the Queens highway.Is it because they are sectarian.Can a Catholic become the head of the British State or any other religion for that matter?

If you mean monarch, I'm not sure. I would say yes because the constitution is a changing thing. The Queen is head of the Church of England and one of the monarchs roles is defender of the faith (CoE). However, Prince Charles said a few years back that he sees the Monarch's role as being the defender of faith and that should be whatever faith people choose.

Remember, the Queen is head of the Commonwealth and as such is recognised as the head of state of a number of countries. Most citizens of the commonwealth are not Anglican. I may be right in saying Ian Paisley is not Anglican, but Presbytarian.

The British National Party claim to be British and wave the Union flag, I wouldn't say they are a good example of "Britishness" either.

Fratton Fred

Ulster9 wrote:

I am sorry ArthurF but that doesnt wash.



People may have a sense of Britishness from being a british nationalist,ie being from the isle of Britain.The majority of Irish people would view with contempt the notion of being labeled as British.How could you label somebody the nationality of an island they are not from.I am not British in any way because i m not from Britain.Very simple really.I think Gerry Adams would not be happy at being labelled as British.He lives in a part of Ireland that is under British sovernty and has apposed it all is life.For your information Gerry Adams did not attend University.Ireland has and still endures British colonisation in Northern Ireland but it doesnt make Irish people in some way british.Maybe you should stick arrogance in your list, thats definitely British

sorry to be pedantic, but British rue excluded, when has there ever been a united Ireland? A United Ulster is one thing, but a united Ireland?

Ulster9

sorry to be pedantic, but British rue excluded, when has there ever been a united Ireland? A United Ulster is one thing, but a united Ireland?

And you re point is???

Zombrex

I'm not following why people seem to be assuming that if N.I want a United Ireland there will be a United Ireland.

I would imagine the vast majority of people in the South would reject a United Ireland as it would be very crippling to the state in more ways than one.

Even if a united ireland becomes a serious issue in the north it will be an up hill struggle for those in the North to convince people down here that they even want a United Ireland.

Its all a bit of a none issue, and will be for some time