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Time to prepare for a United Ireland even if it does not happen?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    csk wrote:
    *groan* I never said it was:rolleyes:

    But the principle is as true today as it was 91 years ago.

    Except its not because the majority of people in the South gave up the claim to the North in the GFA.
    csk wrote:
    ...But because you have a gun you can say, take over and subjugate a people?
    Ask the IRA...

    Its funny how people are all for legitimacy and democracy so long as they get what they want. But when they don't then they are quite happy to drop the principles of democracy and legitimacy ... ironic no?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    Wicknight wrote:
    Except its not because the majority of people in the South gave up the claim to the North in the GFA.

    Or more likely the vast majority of the peolpe wanted to an end to violence? The deal was a quid pro quo to ensure we never return to the Bad old days of the undemocratic sectarian rule of Unionists not that we will never see a United Ireland. An Irish State for Irish people is a very basic right that should be extended to Irish People all over the island.
    Ask the IRA...

    Well the closest thing to the IRA I could find to consult was the Government of Ireland that the IRA swore allegiance to, the Government that todays Dáil is directly descended from. Here is what they said...
    And Whereas English[sic] rule in this country is, and always has been, based upon force and fraud and maintained by military occupation against the declared will of the people:
    Its funny how people are all for legitimacy and democracy so long as they get what they want. But when they don't then they are quite happy to drop the principles of democracy and legitimacy ... ironic no?

    *sigh* If you want to indulge in puerile spin rather than address the point at hand then go ahead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    csk wrote:
    Or more likely the vast majority of the peolpe wanted to an end to violence?

    Or maybe everyone was stoned ....

    If you start asserting what you think the population actually wants then you circumvent the democratic process. Sure why bother with democracy at all if you know what people actually want ...

    How ever you feel about the 1999 referendum it doesn't change the fact that the Republic gave up any claim to Northern Ireland. We have no legitimate claim to the North. The future of the North is recognised by both the Irish State and the U.K government as resting in the hands of the population of the North.

    I understand a lot of people don't like that fact, and would prefer that N.I is included in the rest of the Island because Nationlists then far out number Unionists, but that is not a reflection of how things are recognised today.
    csk wrote:
    An Irish State for Irish people is a very basic right that should be extended to Irish People all over the island.

    We have an Irish state, its called the Republic of Ireland and it occupies five-sixths of the island of Ireland.
    csk wrote:
    Here is what they said...
    Did they say that before or after 1999 Good Friday Agreement .... ? :rolleyes:

    csk wrote:
    *sigh* If you want to indulge in puerile spin rather than address the point at hand then go ahead.

    I am addressing the points. You are ignoring the bits of democracy and legitimacy that you don't like or that don't give you what you want. Which, as I point out, is ironic considering you claim that the main problem with Northern Ireland is that people are denied their rights.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭Ulster9


    Articles 2 recognise the rights of all people born on the island of Ireland which includes its islands and Seas to be part of the Irish Nation.
    Article 3 recognises that it is the firm will of the Irish Nation to reunite both jurisdictions democratically and peacefully.

    This is a legitimate aim and is all we who aspire to Irish Unity seek.That aspiration is enshrined in our constitution for any of you FF,FG,LB,PDs that dont know.People who do not want a united Ireland here on this thread should just come out and say it.

    Partition was legitimatised by a British state that had the power to impose its will on the Irish Nation.

    We move though for the sake of National reconcillation with the current arrangements with the prospect of political unity in the future.Dialogue between both jurisdictions can determine how an all ireland can take shape.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭Ulster9


    Articles 2 recognise the rights of all people born on the island of Ireland which includes its islands and Seas to be part of the Irish Nation.
    Article 3 recognises that it is the firm will of the Irish Nation to reunite both jurisdictions democratically and peacefully.

    This is a legitimate aim and is all we who aspire to Irish Unity seek.That aspiration is enshrined in our constitution for any of you FF,FG,LB,PDs that dont know.People who do not want a united Ireland here on this thread should just come out and say it.

    Partition was legitimatised by a British state that had the power to impose its will on the Irish Nation.

    We move though for the sake of National reconcillation with the current arrangements with the prospect of political unity in the future.Dialogue between both jurisdictions can determine how an all ireland can take shape.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    Wicknight wrote:
    Or maybe everyone was stoned ....

    That's what you call addressing the point at hand is it? :rolleyes:
    Or maybe this startling piece of insight below is:rolleyes:
    Did they say that before or after 1999 Good Friday Agreement .... ? :rolleyes

    If you ask a stupid question... ;)

    Of course, at least I had the courtesy to answer your question even if it was stupid.
    If you start asserting what you think the population actually wants then you circumvent the democratic process. Sure why bother with democracy at all if you know what people actually want ...

    Where did I do that?
    How ever you feel about the 1999 referendum it doesn't change the fact that the Republic gave up any claim to Northern Ireland. We have no legitimate claim to the North. The future of the North is recognised by both the Irish State and the U.K government as resting in the hands of the population of the North.

    As I said it was a quid pro quo deal to ensure we wouldn't return to the bad old days of the undemocratic sectarian rule by Unionists and also for a greater say in the affairs of Irish people in the north, so as to ensure that they won't have to tolerate another sectarian bigoted regime and that our rights to National Sovereignty would one day be attained.
    I understand a lot of people don't like that fact, and would prefer that N.I is included in the rest of the Island because Nationlists then far out number Unionists, but that is not a reflection of how things are recognised today.

    You obviously don't understand anything I have been saying then! Which doesn't surprise me.:rolleyes:

    A lot of people don't like the fact that our National Soveriegnty is being degraded. It is not about gerrymandering some kind of "democratic vote" or whatever it is you are now blathering on about. We seem to have no problem leaving that up to the British.

    It is about our rights as a Sovereign Nation. These rights are laid out by the United Nations. Those rights were what led to the founding of what we know today as the Republic of Ireland, it was Britain's long usurpation and refusal to acknowledge those rights that have caused so much bloodshed and violence on this island.

    But I suppose that is alright, sure the British can impose anything they want since they have the bigger Army?
    We have an Irish state, its called the Republic of Ireland and it occupies five-sixths of the island of Ireland.

    Still doesn't adress the point that not all Irish People are included in that State now does it.

    I am addressing the points. You are ignoring the bits of democracy and legitimacy that you don't like or that don't give you what you want. Which, as I point out, is ironic considering you claim that the main problem with Northern Ireland is that people are denied their rights.

    Actually Wicknight where have I ignored "bits of democracy and legitimacy" it is in fact you who is doing that. I raised a point that you seem incapable of addressing, you don't answer the question I put to you, instead you continously blather on about irrelevant stuff. I suppose you'll be acusing me of talking about the Plantations next.:rolleyes:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    Look - its as simple as this. Our country was raped in 1921. The split was devastating. It makes people very angry. That anger exists today because everyone here knows that manufactured state to our north should not exist. We should not legitimise it at all in my view. There will be no real peace on this Island until there is a United Ireland without any British involvement. That includes the Commonwealth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    darkman2 wrote:
    Look - its as simple as this. Our country was raped in 1921. The split was devastating. It makes people very angry. That anger exists today because everyone here knows that manufactured state to our north should not exist. We should not legitimise it at all in my view. There will be no real peace on this Island until there is a United Ireland without any British involvement. That includes the Commonwealth.

    Sorry Im going to dismiss your post as pure Anti-British tripe.

    The South of Ireland agreed in 1921 to become a 26 county state.

    The South of Ireland agreed by Referendum to Drop the constitional claim on the North of Ireland.

    Blaming Britain for everything in Irish history is not the way forward. I have no objection to the current northern state , I also have no objection to a United Ireland should the Northern Irish population vote in that direction. I personnally would vote in that direction if

    However what I would object to is a joining a state that holds on to the ideal of Anti-Britishness that you are currently displaying.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    darkman2 wrote:
    Look - its as simple as this. Our country was raped in 1921. The split was devastating. It makes people very angry. That anger exists today because everyone here knows that manufactured state to our north should not exist. We should not legitimise it at all in my view. There will be no real peace on this Island until there is a United Ireland without any British involvement. That includes the Commonwealth.

    Actually it's not that simple. Our country was raped for a very long time, the split in 1921 was stupid more so than anything. I'll grant you in the long run it turned out devastating, though that was because of peoples inability to address the problems until it was too late.

    It most definitily is not about anger though, let's be clear about that. It's about the best way forward (always has been), it's about the sane, logical, rational, sensible option, A United Ireland!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    Zambia232 wrote:
    The South of Ireland agreed in 1921 to become a 26 county state.

    That's a major understatement and is way too simplified to be given credence.
    The South of Ireland agreed by Referendum to Drop the constitional claim on the North of Ireland.

    Actually it was a quid pro quo deal to make sure we never had to return to the bad old days.
    Blaming Britain for everything in Irish history is not the way forward. I have no objection to the current northern state , I also have no objection to a United Ireland should the Northern Irish population vote in that direction. I personnally would vote in that direction if

    Ah but we don't! We blame the Spanish too, sure if they had have landed where they were told and not made Hugh O'Neill march all the way to Kinsale we wouldn't be having this conversation at all! :p


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    once this is sorted, we can start talking about Australia, the USA, Brazil, Argentina....

    Quite where we are going to put all these people when we give those countries back to the Aborigines, Native Ameicans etc I'm not sure but still, a line on a map in Ireland is ery important:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    once this is sorted, we can start talking about Australia, the USA, Brazil, Argentina....

    Quite where we are going to put all these people when we give those countries back to the Aborigines, Native Ameicans etc I'm not sure but still, a line on a map in Ireland is ery important:rolleyes:

    What exactly is that supposed to mean? This is a thread about a United Ireland, no?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    Zambia232 wrote:
    Sorry Im going to dismiss your post as pure Anti-British tripe.

    The South of Ireland agreed in 1921 to become a 26 county state.

    The South of Ireland agreed by Referendum to Drop the constitional claim on the North of Ireland.

    Blaming Britain for everything in Irish history is not the way forward. I have no objection to the current northern state , I also have no objection to a United Ireland should the Northern Irish population vote in that direction. I personnally would vote in that direction if

    However what I would object to is a joining a state that holds on to the ideal of Anti-Britishness that you are currently displaying.

    You have your wires crossed mate. I am not displaying 'anti Britishness'. I like Britain.

    What I am displaying is anti Unionist in the North. You know as well as I do they are nothing but bitter pr**ks that need to get a life big time. End of story. They have a spoon stuck up their arse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    csk wrote:
    What exactly is that supposed to mean? This is a thread about a United Ireland, no?

    half the world has been raped by the other half. The Irish have a country which is owned and governed by the Irish, it's just that part of that country chooses to be part of the Union, part does not. The Irish who also consider themselves British have as much right to be in Ireland as the Spanish decendants do in Argentina no? so surely their wishes have to be respected.

    from a lot of the posts, it sounds as if the Irish people have been driven from their homeland, ala the Native Americans or the Palestinians.

    As for the breakup of Ireland, De Velera was as complicit in this as any Englishman, yet we must not blame an Irishman as only the English do wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    darkman2 wrote:
    You have your wires crossed mate. I am not displaying 'anti Britishness'. I like Britain.

    What I am displaying is anti Unionist in the North. You know as well as I do they are nothing but bitter pr**ks that need to get a life big time. End of story. They have a spoon stuck up their arse.

    And Nationalists are all level headed reasonable people then? :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    darkman2 wrote:
    What I am displaying is anti Unionist in the North. You know as well as I do they are nothing but bitter pr**ks that need to get a life big time. End of story. They have a spoon stuck up their arse.

    I think you should rethink that there, really, whatever about political difference they should be respected.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    half the world has been raped by the other half. The Irish have a country which is owned and governed by the Irish, it's just that part of that country chooses to be part of the Union, part does not. The Irish who also consider themselves British have as much right to be in Ireland as the Spanish decendants do in Argentina no? so surely their wishes have to be respected.
    Oh dear god:eek: Who said Unionists had no right ot be in Ireland?
    from a lot of the posts, it sounds as if the Irish people have been driven from their homeland, ala the Native Americans or the Palestinians.

    Are you trying to deny that what happened to Irish people was not so bad then?
    As for the breakup of Ireland, De Velera was as complicit in this as any Englishman, yet we must not blame an Irishman as only the English do wrong.

    Yes he was. However the British/English/themacrossthewater/delete as applicable have to take the majority of the blame, considering they should not have been here in the first place.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    csk wrote:
    I think you should rethink that there, really, whatever about political difference they should be respected.

    They should be respected?!? Are you for real? Why do you think Donegal Monaghan and Cavan were not included in this state they live in? - because they were majority catholic. What you had was sectarian bigots making decisions on the Unionist side. Whats up there now are decendants of this bigotry. So much so, in fact, they claim to have more in common with Scotland then with us. What kind of BS is this? Its comical, it really is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    darkman2 wrote:
    They should be respected?!? Are you for real? Why do you think Donegal Monaghan and Cavan were not included in this state they live in? - because they were majority catholic. What you had was sectarian bigots making decisions on the Unionist side. Whats up there now are decendants of this bigotry. So much so, in fact, they claim to have more in common with Scotland then with us. What kind of BS is this? Its comical, it really is.

    While that may be so, you are just playing up to the other crowd here who, rather than debate the issue, just want to make out that this is about being anti-British or anti Unionist rather than Pro-UI or PRo-Ireland. Maybe you are purposefully playing up to that?:)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    csk wrote:
    While that may be so, you are just playing up to the other crowd here who, rather than debate the issue, just want to make out that this is about being anti-British or anti Unionist rather than Pro-UI or PRo-Ireland. Maybe you are purposefully playing up to that?:)


    What 'other crowd'? For the record: And this should be well known by now! - I hate SF type Republicans. I consider myself a nationalist but I am not going to sugar coat the miserable excuse for the existence of the Northern Ireland state - It should not exist - and we should not promote it's existence in my view.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    csk wrote:
    Oh dear god:eek: Who said Unionists had no right ot be in Ireland?

    Then their wishes shoud be respected, no?
    csk wrote:
    Are you trying to deny that what happened to Irish people was not so bad then?
    not as bad. Very bad, granted, but not systematic anhiliation (Takes cover waiting for someone to mention the last famine)

    That was the way of the world, conquer or be conquered. in hindsight we would consider it unjust, but we live by different standards nowadays.
    csk wrote:
    Yes he was. However the British/English/themacrossthewater/delete as applicable have to take the majority of the blame, considering they should not have been here in the first place.

    there's a lovely bit in Angela's Ashes. Frank McCort's father is throwing a mattress out in the street because it is infested with bugs. Frank McCort tells how his father blames the English for the bed bugs, as there were no bed bugs in Ireland before the English came.;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    darkman2 wrote:
    What 'other crowd'? For the record: And this should be well known by now! - I hate SF type Republicans. I consider myself a nationalist but I am not going to sugar coat the miserable excuse for the existence of the Northern Ireland state - It should not exist - and we should not promote it's existence in my view.

    have you ever considered a carrer in the diplomatic core?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    have you ever considered a carrer in the diplomatic core?

    Considering Im very young I might consider it;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    csk wrote:
    That's what you call addressing the point at hand is it? :rolleyes:
    Or maybe this startling piece of insight below is:rolleyes:
    Its pointing out how ridiculous to second guess the democratic wishes of the Irish people in the name of fairness and democracy. You can claim they were doing anything you want, your claim has no legitimacy.
    csk wrote:
    If you ask a stupid question... ;)
    I'll take that as an affirmative to the before the GFA :rolleyes:
    csk wrote:
    Where did I do that?
    Here -

    Or more likely the vast majority of the peolpe wanted to an end to violence? The deal was a quid pro quo to ensure we never return to the Bad old days of the undemocratic sectarian rule of Unionists not that we will never see a United Ireland. An Irish State for Irish people is a very basic right that should be extended to Irish People all over the island.

    The "likely" conclusion from 95% of the voting population voting to give up the claim to the North is that 95% of the voting population gave up the claim to the North.

    Therefore the Irish State has no legitimate claim to Northern Ireland. The North can join the Irish State if they wish (assuming we agree, which I doubt we would), we have no claim to that territory. It belongs to the N.I people to do with as they so wish.

    Now you can try and convince yourself that that wasn't actually what 95% of the voting population meant when they voted for the GFA, but the simple fact of that matter is that is what they voted to do.
    csk wrote:
    A lot of people don't like the fact that our National Soveriegnty is being degraded.
    "A lot of people" would be the 5% who didn't vote for the GFA?
    csk wrote:
    It is about our rights as a Sovereign Nation. These rights are laid out by the United Nations. Those rights were what led to the founding of what we know today as the Republic of Ireland, it was Britain's long usurpation and refusal to acknowledge those rights that have caused so much bloodshed and violence on this island.
    Spare me the Republican rant :rolleyes:

    If you want to hate the British for 800 years of history go ahead. I find it rather unproductive to hate dead people.
    csk wrote:
    Still doesn't adress the point that not all Irish People are included in that State now does it.
    It isn't supposed to. There are approx 30 million people in the world who make claim the title of "Irish" The vast majority don't live in the Republic of Ireland.
    csk wrote:
    I raised a point that you seem incapable of addressing, you don't answer the question I put to you

    I did answer it, the problem is it is an answer you don't understand because you only see your position.

    The action of partition, that happened over 80 years ago, cannot be used as a justification to overrule the democratic wishes of the North now, no matter how much people of today disagree with partition back then. You only wish to do this because it conveniently supports your position. You ironically make this claim in the name of democracy.

    It happened, it happened decades before you were born. You seriously need to get over it.

    Such an act would make a mockery of a claim to supporting democracy in the North.

    Dead people don't vote. It is the wishes of those who are alive today that give something legitimacy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    As wicknight has just said. All of this happened long before many if not all of us here on the thread were born.

    I have never lived in a 32 county state, I have never belonged to a 32 county republic. I consider myself Irish as is the right of anyone of Irish descent as recognised in the constitution. Along with that neither of my parents or none of my 4 grandparents were born in a 32 county state. We've gotten through life this far without it having shooting ourselves in the head because of the injsutice that is........what is the injustice?????

    It happened, it's been fixed, get over it and get on with your everyday life. Have you no real worries (I'm a student so I don't...except passing exams) to occupy your time, taxes, interest rates and bills occupy the space in most people's lives where a united Ireland is occuping the minds of people with little else to think about. Most people in the Republic couldn't give 2 hoots if the Island was 4 countries as long as they had a decent standard of living


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    Wicknight wrote:
    I did answer it, the problem is it is an answer you don't understand because you only see your position.

    *sigh* I'm really getting tired of your refusal to actually engage with me but nevertheless...

    Actually Wicknight I asked a question which you answered with another rather stupid question. You then proceeded to rant and rave about me not respecting democracy and legitimacy. Then we have this below...
    csk
    It is about our rights as a Sovereign Nation. These rights are laid out by the United Nations. Those rights were what led to the founding of what we know today as the Republic of Ireland, it was Britain's long usurpation and refusal to acknowledge those rights that have caused so much bloodshed and violence on this island.

    Spare me the Republican rant

    If you want to hate the British for 800 years of history go ahead. I find it rather unproductive to hate dead people.

    You see here you are again not addressing the point, instead claiming its just some "republican Rant" (whatever that means:rolleyes: ) eventhough I have repeatedly told you before that I'm not a Republican, but hey why should you actually deal with what I'm saying when instead you can pretend to be intelligent and ignore it.

    Then we have you saying I hate the British, again without foundation, considering I have already said it is not about hate, in this very thread no less. More waffle instead of debate.:rolleyes:

    However just in case you hadn't realised I'm not arguing against the GFA, I have told you before that I support it. I seem to have to repeat myself quite alot though WHILE YOU STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED THE POINT. But that's okay I'll live with that. Partition is still a problem today funnily enough and funnily enough it still affects live people.
    How ever you feel about the 1999 referendum it doesn't change the fact that the Republic gave up any claim to Northern Ireland. We have no legitimate claim to the North. The future of the North is recognised by both the Irish State and the U.K government as resting in the hands of the population of the North.

    Here is the waffle you intially came out with. As acknowledge later we gave up a Territorial claim, in the interests of peace and reconciliation might I add.

    If you bother to read the relevant articles of Bunreacht na hÉireann, you would see that everything I have said is in accordance with the Constitution and I would say it is YOU WHO IS TRYING TO CONVINCE YOURSELF WHAT IT WAS THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY VOTED FOR. I have no need as all I ahve to do is simply look at the Constitituion where it shows quite clearly what they voted for.

    Article 1

    The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

    Article 2

    It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.

    Article 3

    1. It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territoryof the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically
    expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by
    this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that
    existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.



    2. Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established
    by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect
    of all or any part of the island.


    The underlined bit says it all really, we want a United Ireland, but we want it peacefully. It does not give up the claim for Irish people to National Soveriegnty, or as Article one states, our "inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose [our] own form of Government, to determine [our] relations with other nations, and to develop [our] life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions".

    As we see in Article two every one entitled to the rights laid out by Article one are "every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation."

    That is A LEGITIMATE CLAIM .

    Here is the United Nations Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples:

    1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

    2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

    4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.


    No.1 is the situation Ireland found herself in, No.2 has never happened and No.4 is not being respected either.

    Why, Wicknight, have the people of Ireland not been allowed to exercise the rights laid out by the UN? Because the British wouldn't let us? Because the British have a bigger Army? Because the British have more of a say in the UN?

    Arguably the answer is all three. However that is neither here nor there, as the original question was what legitimate claim do Irish people have to live in a United Ireland and I have fully explained it there. The only question is why are you, Wicknight, against a United Ireland? I don't want nor expect an answer really, it's quite obvious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    darkman2 wrote:
    What 'other crowd'? For the record: And this should be well known by now! - I hate SF type Republicans. I consider myself a nationalist but I am not going to sugar coat the miserable excuse for the existence of the Northern Ireland state - It should not exist - and we should not promote it's existence in my view.

    I'm sure really you know more about the "other crowd" than I do.;) :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭csk


    :
    ninty9er wrote:
    It happened, it's been fixed, get over it and get on with your everyday life.

    But it has not been fixed, we, the Irish peole, still have a legitimate claim.
    Have you no real worries (I'm a student so I don't...except passing exams) to occupy your time, taxes, interest rates and bills occupy the space in most people's lives where a united Ireland is occuping the minds of people with little else to think about.

    This is a thread about a United Ireland no? The point would be to have a discussion, no? If YOU don't like that YOU can go away and not care. :)
    most people in the Republic couldn't give 2 hoots if the Island was 4 countries as long as they had a decent standard of living

    Actually that's quite unfair, alot of people care about the direction of our country and our fellow Irishmen and Irishwomen. I thought that would be perfectly clear considering we altered our Constitution so as to allay the fears of quite a number of Irish people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    CSK, do you believe that, if the majority of people in NI want to remain part of the UK, then their wishes should be respected and NI should remain as it is?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭Ulster9


    This thread has gone to hell.Its about what we need to do to prepare if the possiblility of a united Ireland arises.Its not about whether Northern Ireland is legitimate or not.It obviously is considering the agreements that have taken place since its existance between Dublin and London.The Good Friday Agreement being the agreement that addressed the National question.
    The Irish constitution states that it is the wish of the Irish Nation to seek reunification of its territory and people democratically.Therefore it is a legitimate aspiration to seek Irish unity and Irish governments must work towards fullfilling that aspiration according to the constitution.
    The Good Friday Agreement is the best tool to achieve Irish Unity by working the Institutions and seeking to persuade those that an all-Ireland agreed state would be a desirable outcome for all.
    That is why Sinn Fein as the only all-Ireland party seeking unity is working the Good Friday Institutions as a way of advancing the idea of a New Ireland.


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