Cows need us to eat them

ScumLord

I can understand the health benefits of having a vegetarian diet (although I'm not convinced cutting meat out entirely is a good thing seeing as we're omnivore) but I can't understand the logic behind saying it's cruelty to animals.

First off all domesticated farm animals can and do live a good life (the living conditions of animals on large industrial farms is disgusting but in a normal farm setting it's different, I'm all for organic, did the course an all) they get free medical care, something no wild animal would get. Their protected after and get the best of food, they never go hungry and when the time does eventually come for them it's relatively quick compared to any other predator bar maybe a snake. It's without doubt better than being ripped to peaces by a pack of wild African dogs. Nearly all other animals on the planet don't think ahead they can't imagine whats going to happen to them so don't live in fear of the day they get a bolt through the head. They live a good live.

The 2nd thing is, what would happen to all these domesticated animals if humans didn't eat them? They'd be practically wiped out. No farmer could afford to keep a herd of cattle if he wasn't making money out of it. Cattle, chickens, pigs and sheep would be on the endangered list within no time as mass culling take place and grazing land is replaced by crops. Remember that especially in Europe there is nowhere for these animals to go not that they could survive on their own anymore 1000s of years depending on humans wipes out their ability to take care of themselves.

Then of course there's the upset to the environment. Like I already said Europe has been farmland for 1000s of years, take Ireland, there's practically no wild countryside left. The Eco system has adapted to a farming culture, granted most of it revolves around crop cycles but who knows what kind of damage could be done removing millions of animals from that ecosystem.

Humans are part of the ecosystem not removed from it. There are many species that depend on us doing what we're doing. It's not wrong to be part of that.

Nature Boy

ScumLord wrote:

First off all domesticated farm animals can and do live a good life (the living conditions of animals on large industrial farms is disgusting but in a normal farm setting it's different, I'm all for organic, did the course an all) they get free medical care, something no wild animal would get. Their protected after and get the best of food, they never go hungry

Yes but they pay for it by having to die at a fraction of their life expetency.

ScumLord wrote:

The 2nd thing is, what would happen to all these domesticated animals if humans didn't eat them?

They wouldn't exist in the first place if we didn't eat them

ScumLord wrote:

There are many species that depend on us doing what we're doing. It's not wrong to be part of that.

So how did they survive before we existed?

seamus

You're ignoring a critical part of the ideal - not everyone is vegetarian for the same reason. Not everyone who is vegetarian thinks it's an inherently healthier diet. In fact, it can be much less healthy unless you specifically account for the nutrients you're not getting from meat. Some people eat vegetarian because they think it's healthier for them. Others eat vegetarian because they think it's cruel. Others eat vegetarian because they simply don't like the taste of meat.

On declaring that they're vegetarian, 99% of people will be asked "Why?". We have to resist the urge to tell people to **** off and mind their own business (I don't ask you why you don't eat carrots, for example), instead usually opting to explain ourselves. Then you have to argue your point. Most meat-eaters will attempt to argue the case for eating meat, without having done any research into it. Most vegetarians willl let you get on with your meat eating without saying another word. Why are you so threatened by vegetarians? What effect does the composition of someone else's diet have on you? Why do you feel the need to prove that you're right?

ScumLord

seamus wrote:

We have to resist the urge to tell people to **** off and mind their own business

Well that isn't a very nice or sociable thing to do. People are always curious about things that are slightly out of the ordinary. Like I pointed out the post was more so directed at the cruelty to animals position.

nature boy wrote:

Why are you so threatened by vegetarians?

I'm not, just curious, why are you so defensive?

nature boy wrote:

They wouldn't exist in the first place if we didn't eat them

How did we eat them if they didn't exist? The domesticated animal might not exist if things where different but things aren't different. Are you implying it's ok to wipe them out because we created them?

nature boy wrote:

So how did they survive before we existed?

The wild animals that include us in there daily life's probably did get along fine without us at one stage but then they adapted to a human world. Some, maybe most could survive if there was a massive change in our lifestyles but your still going to cause a massive upset, I don't know what would happen but we've made silly mistakes before trying to do the right thing.

Hugh Hefner

I suppose a lot of people see wantingly killing animals to be more cruel than letting nature take its course. They (and this includes me) might believe that, for the sake of things like dignity, self-respect, "the right thing to do", etc., that it is most important not to be involved in killing animals in any way.

pwd

oddly enough cows get on ok in hindu countries

grahamo

ScumLord wrote:

I can understand the health benefits of having a vegetarian diet (although I'm not convinced cutting meat out entirely is a good thing seeing as we're omnivore) but I can't understand the logic behind saying it's cruelty to animals.

First off all domesticated farm animals can and do live a good life (the living conditions of animals on large industrial farms is disgusting but in a normal farm setting it's different, I'm all for organic, did the course an all) they get free medical care, something no wild animal would get. Their protected after and get the best of food, they never go hungry and when the time does eventually come for them it's relatively quick compared to any other predator bar maybe a snake. It's without doubt better than being ripped to peaces by a pack of wild African dogs. Nearly all other animals on the planet don't think ahead they can't imagine whats going to happen to them so don't live in fear of the day they get a bolt through the head. They live a good live.

The 2nd thing is, what would happen to all these domesticated animals if humans didn't eat them? They'd be practically wiped out. No farmer could afford to keep a herd of cattle if he wasn't making money out of it. Cattle, chickens, pigs and sheep would be on the endangered list within no time as mass culling take place and grazing land is replaced by crops. Remember that especially in Europe there is nowhere for these animals to go not that they could survive on their own anymore 1000s of years depending on humans wipes out their ability to take care of themselves.

Then of course there's the upset to the environment. Like I already said Europe has been farmland for 1000s of years, take Ireland, there's practically no wild countryside left. The Eco system has adapted to a farming culture, granted most of it revolves around crop cycles but who knows what kind of damage could be done removing millions of animals from that ecosystem.

Humans are part of the ecosystem not removed from it. There are many species that depend on us doing what we're doing. It's not wrong to be part of that.

I agree! Plus some of these animals are quite tasty! Especially with gravy or stuffing. Its not natural or healthy to be a vegetarian. We're OMNIVORES! Top of the food chain and all you veggies are not getting enough iron or B Vitamins. You probably won't be able to reply to this either as you won't have the energy if your a vegetarian.

Mentalmiss

grahamo wrote:

I agree! Plus some of these animals are quite tasty! Especially with gravy or stuffing. Its not natural or healthy to be a vegetarian. We're OMNIVORES! Top of the food chain and all you veggies are not getting enough iron or B Vitamins. You probably won't be able to reply to this either as you won't have the energy if your a vegetarian.

Been Veg for more than 30 years.
Had my blood checked about 2 weeks ago. My iron and B vits are perfect. I will send you the results if you doubt it.
PS. I do not approve of or take supplements.
Edited to add that one of the best sources of iron is wild nettles.

rockbeer

ScumLord, would you consider it reasonable to keep a human animal in a prison for most of its life, and then kill it when it suited you?

So why is it OK to treat a non-human animal that way?

Nature Boy

grahamo wrote:

Its not natural or healthy to be a vegetarian

Ok. Carry on...

Why are you even on the Vegetarian forum?

rediguana

One point that I DO agree with is that wild animals rarely meet with a rosy ending. If you don't get pulled limb from limb by a predator, starvation is your unhappy lot.

I don't think the OP came across as being threatened by vegetarians. On the contrary, I think that vegetarians can be overly-sensitive to perceived attacks on their creed. Mitigating that, they DO seem to have to justify their eating habits more so than any other group, and I guess this breeds defensiveness.

In general, animals within the food chain aren't treated well. It's a good thing that vegans / vegetarians keep this debate alive.

TheBigLebowski

ScumLord wrote:

Their protected after and get the best of food, they never go hungry and when the time does eventually come for them it's relatively quick compared to any other predator bar maybe a snake. It's without doubt better than being ripped to peaces by a pack of wild African dogs. Nearly all other animals on the planet don't think ahead they can't imagine whats going to happen to them so don't live in fear of the day they get a bolt through the head. They live a good live.

The 2nd thing is, what would happen to all these domesticated animals if humans didn't eat them? They'd be practically wiped out. No farmer could afford to keep a herd of cattle if he wasn't making money out of it. Cattle, chickens, pigs and sheep would be on the endangered list within no time as mass culling take place and grazing land is replaced by crops. Remember that especially in Europe there is nowhere for these animals to go not that they could survive on their own anymore 1000s of years depending on humans wipes out their ability to take care of themselves.

Then of course there's the upset to the environment. Like I already said Europe has been farmland for 1000s of years, take Ireland, there's practically no wild countryside left. The Eco system has adapted to a farming culture, granted most of it revolves around crop cycles but who knows what kind of damage could be done removing millions of animals from that ecosystem.

Humans are part of the ecosystem not removed from it. There are many species that depend on us doing what we're doing. It's not wrong to be part of that.

I think you're missing a lot of points. Millions of people die of terminal illnesses, others get hit by a car and die a slow death with severe internal injuries. Should we kill everybody quickly now because people like you percieve it as a better death?

The other point you are completely missing is that farm animals would not be on the farms in the first place if people did not want to kill them for food. The farmer wouldn't have to worry about being able to afford to keep a herd of cattle because he wouldn't have one.

There are several sources of good information you should read including an explanation of how cattle farming is a lot harsher on the environment than crops. For instance, it takes 16 kilos of corn, beans, grains, etc, to produce one kilo of beef. The same area of land can feed 20 times as many people eating a vegetarian diet than a meat diet.

Wishbone Ash

Edit:duplicate post

Wishbone Ash

We don't really eat cows here. It's mainly bullocks and heifers. Cows are generally used to supply milk.

TheBigLebowski

And another point OP. You seem concerned at the prospect of animals becoming extinct? How many animals do you think have become extinct since Europe was cut down for grazing? More than 1000 species are becoming extinct every year due to destruction of tropical rainforests and related habitats.

rediguana

Wishbone Ash wrote:

We don't really eat cows here. It's mainly bullocks and heifers. Cows are generally used to supply milk.

I think the OP might have just as easily called his post "Bullocks and heifers need us to eat them" and the whole argument would stay the same

Interesting point, though. I've studied (one module of!) Agronomics (is this even what the economics of agriculture is called???) and I still don't know what the difference is between bulls / bullocks / cows / heifers / horses. I'm sure it would be easy to find out.

rediguana

TheBigLebowski wrote:

And another point OP. You seem concerned at the prospect of animals becoming extinct? How many animals do you think have become extinct since Europe was cut down for grazing? More than 1000 species are becoming extinct every year due to destruction of tropical rainforests and related habitats.

If that's an accurate figure, it's pretty depressing. In this week's "Economist", there is a story about how the Canadians-clubbing-seal-cubs debate will soon be obsolete, as the melting ice has drowned so many of the cutie pies this season before the clubbers could get to them.

I try to be optimistic (what else can you do?). For those inclined to more roseate views of things, read "The Sceptical Environmentalist" (sorry, I know I'm terribly off-topic here).

Wishbone Ash

rediguana wrote:

I still don't know what the difference is between bulls / bullocks / cows / heifers / horses

Bull=natural bovine male
Bullock=castrated bovine male
Cow=adult bovine female who has given birth to a calf
Heifer=adult bovine female who has not yet given birth

Horse=different breed altogether - equine with solid hoof as opposed to split hoof bovine.

seamus

ScumLord wrote:

I'm not, just curious, why are you so defensive?

I'm not defensive at all. I'm just curious as to why some people, instead of discussing the idea, push a strongly pro-meat-eating agenda. When I read your first post, it immediately made me think of that video from the vegetarian episode of the Simpsons.

ScumLord

Must be all the red meat coursing through my veins.

for the sake of things like dignity, self-respect, "the right thing to do", etc., that it is most important not to be involved in killing animals in any way.

Why? Dignity and self respect aren't things that other animals outside of the higher primates and maybe dolphins can even begin to understand. Why is it wrong for humans to play the part they've always played in the food chain?

We have a relationship with these animals just like lions have relationships with gazelles. Who come it's ok for every other living thing to kill and not us. People have painted humans out to be monsters for doing what we evolved to do. If it wasn't for becoming a meat eater their would be no human race.

ScumLord, would you consider it reasonable to keep a human animal in a prison for most of its life, and then kill it when it suited you?

chalk and cheese, do "bovines" know their prisoners? could they even comprehend what a prison is? Right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder I suppose, I couldn't hold a person prisoner and kill them when it suited me, no.

How many animals do you think have become extinct since Europe was cut down for grazing? More than 1000 species are becoming extinct every year due to destruction of tropical rain forests and related habitats.

Well Europe changing over to farming wouldn't have happened all that quickly so most animals would have had time to adapt but some where lost as the environment changed but that's done it's happened can we justify doing it again, knowingly this time to animals that have served us well for thousands of years.

We are part of the ecosystem a very big part at this stage, animals that could find a place in our society flourished. Species wise that could only be seen as a good thing, lots of animals have cruel or unusual symbiotic or even parasitic relationships with other animals and we're no different. Why is that bad it's just natures way. In the end there will probably be a big pay back to mother nature for giving us such free rain.

Peanut

ScumLord wrote:

.. If it wasn't for becoming a meat eater their would be no human race.

That is highly questionable at best. Species have gone through various meat-eating & non-meat eating adaptations through history, if you look at other non-human primates you can quickly see that being (mostly) vegetarian is no obstacle at all to development or sustainability of that species.

ScumLord wrote:

chalk and cheese, do "bovines" know their prisoners? could they even comprehend what a prison is? Right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder I suppose, I couldn't hold a person prisoner and kill them when it suited me, no.

Where do you draw the line? At how dumb looking an animal is?...
Is is ok to rear gorillas for food?

Humans are just clever & slightly less hairy animals...! (for the most part..)

I think this debate is interesting because it seems to go back to old religious beliefs of humans needing to feel special & dominant over other life. Of course, we are (pending giant space ant invasion :rolleyes: ), but I'm sure that doesn't mean that we have to be assholes to all other life sharing the planet.

ScumLord

if you look at other non-human primates you can quickly see that being (mostly) vegetarian is no obstacle at all to development or sustainability of that species.

You just have to look at the belly of say a chip to see the difference meat makes to an animal. Chimps have huge guts, necessary to process a vegetarian diet. We don't, guts require a large proportion of your energy intake to support them a switch to meat shortened the gut meaning their was allot of energy left over which went to the brain.

Chimps show very human like behaviour when eating meat. Chimps are the 2nd smartest primate and the only other one to eat meat. It requires more skill to catch and eat meat and it required leaps in intelligence to find the left over meat on a carcass when our traditional food supply first ran out. Meat from what I've been told was a big contributing factor to the development of the modern human.

I think this debate is interesting because it seems to go back to old religious beliefs of humans needing to feel special & dominant over other life. QUOTE] This is actually the thinking behind my argument. Taking us out of the food chain is like saying we're above all this nature lark, we don't need to rely on instinct and what went before because we know best. People have become disconnected from their food and then shocked when they find out whats actually involved in the natural process.

but I'm sure that doesn't mean that we have to be assholes to all other life sharing the planet.

We must be the only animal that ever existed on this planet that felt bad about eating a meal. We're not bad, we do have compassion for other animals something which every other animal lacks. We are different and it has to be said the perfect animal so we are dominant but we can't survive on our own we are part of a system if we pull ourselves out of the system it collapses and then we die.

rockbeer

ScumLord wrote:

chalk and cheese, do "bovines" know their prisoners? could they even comprehend what a prison is? Right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder I suppose, I couldn't hold a person prisoner and kill them when it suited me, no.

So are you saying if a group of humans could be conditioned to live in imprisonment in such a way that they didn't know what was happening to them that this would be OK because they didn't understand their condition?

ScumLord wrote:

We are ... the perfect animal

You're quite funny scumlord. Do you really believe this?

Hugh Hefner

ScumLord wrote:

Why? Dignity and self respect aren't things that other animals outside of the higher primates and maybe dolphins can even begin to understand.

Dignity and self-respect don't depend on other people, or on other animals. They're not relative, just subjective. So whether other species understand it or not means nothing.

Why is it wrong for humans to play the part they've always played in the food chain?

Well, first we have to see whether or not that "part" is wrong on its own. I would argue that humans don't need to kill animals to survive, we don't even need to kill them to be fully fit and healthy. We have a choice and the fact is that people eat animals because they prefer to, and that, I would argue, is wrong.
Also, I would say that doing something wrong for a long time doesn't make it okay to continue.

We have a relationship with these animals just like lions have relationships with gazelles. Who come it's ok for every other living thing to kill and not us. People have painted humans out to be monsters for doing what we evolved to do.
If it wasn't for becoming a meat eater their would be no human race.

One could argue that again it is an issue of choice. Lions, etc. have no choice but to kill for food if they want to live. Aswell as that Lions and other animals, as you said earlier, don't have the brain function to understand the gravity of their actions. They are more based in instinct. Humans do understand their actions and their choices.

My own personal opinion is that, apart from the excuse of not understanding their actions, it is not okay for every other living thing to kill. I don't believe that survival is a good enough reason to kill. Therefore I certainly don't think that the luxury of eating meat is.

TheBigLebowski

Have you ever seen a lion trying to drive a massey ferguson? Disastrous...
They dont have a choice. We do.

Schlemm

Wishbone Ash wrote:

We don't really eat cows here. It's mainly bullocks and heifers. Cows are generally used to supply milk.

A dairy farmer will replace about 20% of his herd every year, and some of these cows will finish as beef but it's cheaper meat and winds up in restaurants, etc.

Not a vegetarian myself but I think that we should demand higher standards in farming especially in the area of intensively reared pigs and chickens. Buycotts will make a bigger impact than boycotts on farming practices (just look at organic veg), and many farmers and most of the new welfare legislation takes an anthropocentric view of animal welfare, ie, that good welfare should be practiced because consumers demand it. IMO people who eat meat and demand higher standards in the meat industry (as well as better labelling laws) will make a bigger impact on farming practices than those who don't eat meat and who don't campaign for better welfare.

Even if you're not going to eat meat, animals will still be slaughtered for it for the forseeable future. Whatever your reasons for going veg are, animals will still be farmed for meat. Regardless of our diet, we should all know how animals wind up on our plates and we should change some of the practices out there, especially for chickens and pigs.

ScumLord

rockbeer wrote:

You're quite funny scumlord. Do you really believe this?

Of course. I suppose it all depends on what your definition of perfect is but the human has the tool set to make it dominate over every other animal.

Our brain is the biggest obvious advantage but our bodies are also unique and allow us to have an amazing range of skills. Our skin is fairly unique (at heat control) our hands are just hands down the best set of paws available on the market today. We're still only really beginning to find the limitations of the human body just look at what free runners can achieve as well as other martial arts. Then of course there's the human social network that makes us practically invincible.

Overall the human is the best all rounder, would you really want to be another animal, think of all that you'd lose.

Hugh Hefner wrote:

We have a choice and the fact is that people eat animals because they prefer to, and that, I would argue, is wrong.
Also, I would say that doing something wrong for a long time doesn't make it okay to continue.

Right and wrong isn't something that exists outside of human society, I don't think it's as simple as saying we have a choice. If one of the choices leads to paying more, job losses and the downfall of more than one species of animal.

hugh hefner wrote:

Humans do understand their actions and their choices.

We do (at least should, I think that people in city's might be too far removed from nature to understand their food) respect our animals, we did eat them out of necessity throughout history, some tribes couldn't survive without their cattle and will often go hungry themselves to ensure the animal survives. We give the animals good lives and (did) only take what we needed.

hugh hefner wrote:

My own personal opinion is that, apart from the excuse of not understanding their actions, it is not okay for every other living thing to kill. I don't believe that survival is a good enough reason to kill. Therefore I certainly don't think that the luxury of eating meat is.

But this is a kill or be killed world it's just the way nature works. Nature has decided thats the best way to run things we're the only animal that thinks otherwise and really that instinct only poped up to protect ourselves and ensure a more harmonious social group. It's not "wrong" or a bad thing to kill.

rockbeer

ScumLord wrote:

Of course. I suppose it all depends on what your definition of perfect is but the human has the tool set to make it dominate over every other animal.

So in your mind dominant=perfect?

Scary.

Were dinosaurs perfect too?

Seems to me that we're perfect at being human (well, some of us ), just as cats are perfect at being cats and sloths, sloths etc. Perfect as a relative concept between different species makes no sense at all to me I'm afraid.

To put it another way, would a 'perfect' species commit genocide, destroy its environment and act without respect towards the 'lesser' species it dominates?

ScumLord wrote:

Our brain is the biggest obvious advantage but our bodies are also unique and allow us to have an amazing range of skills. Our skin is fairly unique (at heat control) our hands are just hands down the best set of paws available on the market today. We're still only really beginning to find the limitations of the human body just look at what free runners can achieve as well as other martial arts. Then of course there's the human social network that makes us practically invincible.

Overall the human is the best all rounder, would you really want to be another animal, think of all that you'd lose.

No one is denying the dominance of humans under the prevailing geographical conditions. Of course this is all entirely irrelevant to the discussion, and so far from evidence for our 'perfection' as to be laughable.

You haven't answered the question of whether it would be OK to imprison and then kill humans if they could be conditioned not to understand their predicament. Which is highly relevant because it is of course how all domesticated animals came to be domesticated. Have you ever seen someone 'break' a wild horse? (The term 'break' is spot on) Have you ever stumbled across a wild boar in the woods?

No wild animal voluntarily subjects itself to capture. Yet you talk as though the cows just wandered up to us one day and asked if they could please live in our nice looking fields.

So I ask again, if you would not treat a human that way, why is it acceptable to so treat other species? And as somebody else said, where do you draw the line?

P.S. You really do live in a fantasy world if you think we only take the animal life we need to. Have you heard of overfishing? Do you know that around 30% of food is wasted in the developed world? What about all the animals we have hunted to extinction? You're worryingly selective in your treatment of the facts.

ScumLord

So in your mind dominant=perfect?

Scary.

Well there is truth in that (not exactly where I was heading but..) If an animal is spreading and becomes a dominant species it is obviously better than the other animals in it's enviorment.

The human body is in my mind the best configuration of the mamal body there is. We can outrun just about any other animal (under the right conditions I'm not implying that any one of us could hop of the couch and outrun a lion) we're in the same league as dogs for sustained effort over great distances. Our methods of comunication are unmatched. we can climb and swim better than most and in some instances nearly as good as animal evolved specifically for the task. We can put ourselfs in the mindset of all other animals and predict there behavior which makes us the best hunters on the planet. If you can think of another animal that you'd rather be I'd like to hear it.

To put it another way, would a 'perfect' species commit genocide, destroy its environment and act without respect towards the 'lesser' species it dominates?

You think all these things are unique to humans??? There not and like I said we're the only animal that shows respect for our prey. Allot of other animals will kill the young of others just so there's no competition. When a new alpha male comes into a group he's first action is usually to kill the young of the last male. Ants go on massive conquests killing everything they come across it's only their small size that stops them cuasing major damage. We're just big, we do things on grand scales so it becomes obvious the effect we're having on the world.

No wild animal voluntarily subjects itself to capture. Yet you talk as though the cows just wandered up to us one day and asked if they could please live in our nice looking fields.

Domestic animals where forced into the realtionship but farm animals do like their farmer. If you ever see a farmer walk into a field (just the farmer mind not anyone that walks into the field) every animal in the field comes over to him. They allow the farmer to treat them, milk them and shear them. They buck alright but they do basically sit still until their let go.

So I ask again, if you would not treat a human that way, why is it acceptable to so treat other species? And as somebody else said, where do you draw the line?

I don't think it's realivant. Each animal treats it's own species diferent to every other species. Lions don't go around eating lions, you get sick from eating your own species. Maybe it would make more sense if you said an alien species came to earth would I eat them? If they asked me not to I wouldn't. You draw the line at your own species basically is the way nature has set things up. I wouldn't eat any of the higher primates though I think there to inteligent and would understand what was happening to them.

P.S. You really do live in a fantasy world if you think we only take the animal life we need to.

That's why I put the inverted commas in that sentence. Throughout time the entire animal was used, lately industrial farming has spoilt us and we're wasting allot of the carcas (like the bear in America who'll eat the eggs out of salmon and throw the rest of the fish away because there's so many). I don't like industrial farming and would always go for local organic meat. Industrial famring is an abuse of the system and dosn't really help anyone.

rockbeer

ScumLord wrote:

Well there is truth in that (not exactly where I was heading but..) If an animal is spreading and becomes a dominant species it is obviously better than the other animals in it's enviorment.

You're avoiding the question... You used the word perfect originally. Shall I take your refusal to use it again as a retraction?

ScumLord wrote:

You think all these things are unique to humans???

I didn't say that. I asked whether a perfect species would do these things. Once again you haven't answered the question. Are you a politician by any chance?

ScumLord wrote:

There not and like I said we're the only animal that shows respect for our prey. Allot of other animals will kill the young of others just so there's no competition. When a new alpha male comes into a group he's first action is usually to kill the young of the last male.

Humans do this too. The murder of infants by step-parents is the most common murder of all.

ScumLord wrote:

We're just big, we do things on grand scales so it becomes obvious the effect we're having on the world.

That's a shocking evasion of responsibility. You seem to fail to realize that you're a member of the only species to have even attempted to invent technology specifically to aid its bloodthirsty compulsions.

ScumLord wrote:

Domestic animals where forced into the realtionship but farm animals do like their farmer.

Some prisoners grow to like their prison warders, that doesn't make them any less prisoners.

ScumLord wrote:

I don't think it's realivant. Each animal treats it's own species diferent to every other species.

Of course, but no other species enslaves other species or members of its own. In that we are, I think, unique.

ScumLord wrote:

Maybe it would make more sense if you said an alien species came to earth would I eat them?

Maybe the question you need to be asking yourself is how you would feel if they decided to imprison and then eat you. Based on your arguments, you should accept this arrangement gratefully. Who knows, you might even grow to like them over time

ScumLord, please apply your magnificent human intelligence to learning how to use a spell checker.

Tivoli

wonder if panda tastes nice, bet if it did the extinction problem would be sorted thanks to every farmer in the planet trying to raise them