Cows need us to eat them

ScumLord

You have absolutelu no way of telling that. Since we are just animals, at what point did we magically gain these abilities that are not granted to other animals?

At some stage during our evolution??? Every animal has it's thing. Birds can fly and have a brain designed to cope with that, we're very sociable and that seems to require a large brain with certain heightened mental abilities. There are explanations for all these things I can't go over the course of human evolution for you.

Other animals probably do have these abilities but their just not as developed as ours because it was never necessary for them to have these abilities. But they can't imagine and dream cycles aren't the same thing as imagination.


The BBC did an excellent history of the human race I'm sure it's still on their website.

Tar.Aldarion

ScumLord wrote:

At some stage during our evolution??? Every animal has it's thing. Birds can fly and have a brain designed to cope with that, we're very sociable and that seems to require a large brain with certain heightened mental abilities. There are explanations for all these things I can't go over the course of human evolution for you.

You don't need to go through evolution with me, I know it better than most. Most people that think they understand evolution, don't.
There are other social species, there are animals that are known to communicate, eavesdrop, play games etc etc, everything we do that defines imagination.
Our brains are not so significantly different for us to have such a special sense that other animals do not have. Nobody can say how developed an imagination of a different person or a different animal is.

Some corvids have strong organization and community groups. Jackdaws, for example, have a strong social hierarchy, and are facultatively colonial during breeding (Verhulst and Salomons 2004). Providing mutual aid has also been recorded within many of the corvid species. [5]

Young corvids have been known to play and take part in elaborate social games. The games resemble “king of the mountain” and “follow the leader.” Other games involve the manipulation, passing, and balancing of sticks. Corvids also take part in other activities, such as sliding down smooth surfaces. These games are understood to play a large role in the adaptive and survival ability of the birds (Gill 2003).

Other animals probably do have these abilities but their just not as developed as ours because it was never necessary for them to have these abilities. But they can't imagine and dream cycles aren't the same thing as imagination.
The BBC did an excellent history of the human race I'm sure it's still on their website.

You may also note I mod sleeping & dreaming, animals dream, dreaming uses your imagination. It has been proven that animals dream like us(MIT etc) and have very complx dreams so I don't know where you are getting any of this from. All evidence points to animals having an imagination. Even down to solving problems animals have been shown to use imagination, also a dog used a stick in its mouth to save another dog from a swimming pool after it had seen a person use those rescuing polls at a swimming pool before, which I think is interesting.

rockbeer

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

I don't know where you are getting any of this from.

Throughout the thread ScumLord has demonstrated a strong facility with the often-demonstrated human ability to select and, where necessary, invent the evidence to suit his hypothesis.

In other words, he's making it up as he goes along

ScumLord

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

There are other social species, there are animals that are known to communicate, eavesdrop, play games etc etc, everything we do that defines imagination.

All animals play games, all animals comunicate. Their are allot of animals that act like us after all we probably took our cue's from them seeing as allot of them where here first. Most animals have the same basic brain functions I'll agree with that, all mamels are based on the same basic design.

While the human brain is based on the same basic design as any other it has evolved to the point where it's picked up unique abilitys, you can't denigh the human brain is in a different league to anything else on the planet. Other animals (besides the higher prymates and probably dolphins) don't have the hardware to imagine, plan ahead, use symbols to represent the real world. Saying a cow or pig can understand it's a product and is going to realise the hand that feeds it is going to eat it somewhere down the line is like saying a 1.4ltr fiat punto can do over 200mph.

I've seen cows using team work to get food out of bins and there's no doubt their crafty and many birds seem to be good puzzle solvers but that still doesn't mean they have anywhere near the same mental abilitys as us.

Slaphead07

I suspect cows and birds can, with their huge intellect, spell better than Scumlord.

Tar.Aldarion

ScumLord wrote:

All animals play games, all animals comunicate. Their are allot of animals that act like us after all we probably took our cue's from them seeing as allot of them where here first. Most animals have the same basic brain functions I'll agree with that, all mamels are based on the same basic design.

While the human brain is based on the same basic design as any other it has evolved to the point where it's picked up unique abilitys,

And...I suppose you can just say that other animals haven't evolved to the point of having an imagination? Even though all evidence is contrary?
Are you saying you just think that we have an imagination? Or us and other promates? Or us and primates and dolphins or?
What do you base this on?
Why do animals communicate and play games? Eavesdrop? if they just act on instinct and we do not?

you can't denigh the human brain is in a different league to anything else on the planet.

We have a higher IQ than any other animal on this planet, that does not mean another animal has diminished emotions or imagination, again eveidence is to the contrary and I would like some facts to back up your hearsay argument.
Maybe you believe goldfish have a 3 second memory like a lot of people etc?

Other animals (besides the higher prymates and probably dolphins) don't have the hardware to imagine,

Yes they do, proven by researchers, universities.

plan ahead,

yes they can, this is not disputed at all I imagine.

use symbols to represent the real world.

What does that mean?
And why can higher primates and dolphins do these things that a different animal can not, have they just reached that evolutionary point too?

Saying a cow or pig can understand it's a product and is going to realise the hand that feeds it is going to eat it somewhere down the line is like saying a 1.4ltr fiat punto can do over 200mph.

nobody said a cow can read somebodies mind, if I was going to grind you up after raising you all your life, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't see it coming either.
All you are saying is that they can't read minds and do not have an IQ as high as us which is obvious and beside any point.

I've seen cows using team work to get food out of bins and there's no doubt their crafty and many birds seem to be good puzzle solvers but that still doesn't mean they have anywhere near the same mental abilitys as us.

Again we are smarter than them, as I am smarter than most humans, and everybody is smarter than something else, so?
I don't think that the lower your IQ goes that there is suddenly some drop off point and you suddenly don't have an imagination or emotions and I certainly don't believe that suddenly, through evolution, a few animals gained imagination. If we have an imagination and a dolphin does and a primate does, and all other animals act the same as us, how do you purpose to prove one has an imagination and one does not?
How much smarter than another animal do i have to be before my emotions are stronger than theirs, and my imagination better?

I suspect cows and birds can, with their huge intellect, spell better than Scumlord.

I purpose that due to my superior spelling ability, I have an imagination and that Scumlord does not.

rockbeer

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

nobody said a cow can read somebodies mind, if I was going to grind you up after raising you all your life, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't see it coming either.

Just for anybody who hasn't trawled through the entire thread, ScumLord has already made it clear he thinks it's OK for one species to grind up another as long as the species destined to be ground up doesn't know what's in store for it in advance.

Tar.Aldarion

Well, at least it is different non-tact opinion than usual.
I'm too lazy to read the rest of the thread(IE I'm in work), but eh, odd.

ScumLord

Just for anybody who hasn't trawled through the entire thread, ScumLord has already made it clear he thinks it's OK for one species to grind up another as long as the species destined to be ground up doesn't know what's in store for it in advance.

That's not true, I said that it's not wrong for us to be part of an ecosystem and eat animals that depend on us to eat them for the survival of the species. I said cows don't understand what they are, or whats going to happen to them so there's no point looking at it from an human emotional point of view because the cows are fairly happy as long as they have space and food. Animals eat other animals there's nothing wrong with that.

It was ye that went off on tangents saying cows can feel emotions like humans and have the same mental abilities as humans, which since they have imagination means they can read books, understand art and build complex tools they just couldn't be arsed to do so.

It's Tar who's implying that a cow with a tiny brain can have the same mental functions as a human.

Again we are smarter than them, as I am smarter than most humans, and everybody is smarter than something else, so?

It's not just a case of being smarter or having a high IQ, our brains are different. If cows had the same mental abilities as us why don't they use them? I don't see any cows singing, writing books, or doing much else other than eat and ****. You could not, in any way apply a human intelligence test to a cow, because their brains are different.

rockbeer

ScumLord wrote:

That's not true

Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood you. Could you clarify your comment in post #33:

rockbeer wrote:

Maybe the question you need to be asking yourself is how you would feel if they [aliens] decided to imprison and then eat you.

ScumLord wrote:

I don't think I'd like it at all, although it could be happening now and I just don't know it, in which case I don't care.

I took that to mean you thought it was basically fine as long as you didn't know about it.

Edit:

ScumLord wrote:

It was ye that went off on tangents saying cows can feel emotions like humans and have the same mental abilities as humans

Please show me, with an appropriate quote, where I said cows have the same mental abilities as humans. If you can demonstrate that I did say such a ridiculous thing, I will of course retract it unreservedly.

I have argued that cows, and other animals, have more highly developed emotions than you give them credit for, and I stand by that completely.

Capt'n Midnight

rockbeer wrote:

Just for anybody who hasn't trawled through the entire thread, ScumLord has already made it clear he thinks it's OK for one species to grind up another as long as the species destined to be ground up doesn't know what's in store for it in advance.

arbeit macht frei

Tar.Aldarion

ScumLord wrote:

It was ye that went off on tangents saying cows can feel emotions like humans and have the same mental abilities as humans, which since they have imagination means they can read books, understand art and build complex tools they just couldn't be arsed to do so.
It's Tar who's implying that a cow with a tiny brain can have the same mental functions as a human.

Where did we say they have the same mental abilities as a human, yes they can feel emotion, yes they can imagine, both proven. Your argument is 'I think'. Nobody said they could read books, understand art and build complex tools, you infer that for no reason because it has been said that they have the ability to imagine and feel.

It's not just a case of being smarter or having a high IQ, our brains are different. If cows had the same mental abilities as us why don't they use them? I don't see any cows singing, writing books, or doing much else other than eat and ****. You could not, in any way apply a human intelligence test to a cow, because their brains are different.

I am referring to intelligence, not an IQ test, just usuinf IQ for short, not ratio of tested mental age to chronological age expressed as a quotient multiplied by 100...
You seem to infer, for no reason, that because animals can imagine and feel, tehy somehow should be as smart as human, which nobody has said.

misssouthside

**This will be a bit complicated, bear with me!**
Personally, it's the mass-slaughtering of animals I disagree with. If someone hunts down the animal, kills it, lives off the meat, uses the hide, etc., and if they're living in the wilderness I actually don't have any problem with it.
Sure, I wouldn't have any part in it, but I wouldn't think it was inhumane. Why?
Because the animal wouldn't have died needlessly.
You're right, animals will always hunt each other. But can you really compare a lion hunting down a zebra to you going into a supermarket and buying some sasauges?
You haven't done anything to get that meat, just forked over some.
In the wild, the animals live, and then they die. Mostly because another animal hunts them down.
But, we, the humans, thinking we're so much better with IQs, and our technology, don't do anything. An animal is kept in captivity their whole life, they are then killed (along with maybe 100 other aniamls), they're left in a slaughterhouse. Their hide is stripped off, sold on. The animal is then cut up, and all the nasty bits end up going somewhere. The meat is then brought to a factory, where it's packaged. It's then brought to a supermarket, where someone buys it. Surely you can't compare that to hunting in the wild?
Let's face it, unless you hunted down that animal, cut it up, etc. you really have no right to eat it.
And that, my friend, is why I'm a vegetarian, because I don't agree with the mass slaughtering.
But, of course, this is just my opinion.:D