Childfree

Endasaurus

For goodness sake, a baby is only that for a relatively short amount of your and its lifespan, big deal.

Owen

Endasaurus wrote:

For goodness sake, a baby is only that for a relatively short amount of your and its lifespan, big deal.

Eh no Ted. You're trapped, in the literal sense, and financially for 18 years. That's basically all the fun part of your life done away with.

Endasaurus

You have a child, therefore lock you up and throw away the key?

Stop exaggerating, the pub and restaurant trade would have died years ago if that was the case.

You have someone to look after, who needs special attention in its infancy but who gets easier after that. It does NOT inherit that all the fun of your life is gone forever and ever, or no-one would ever do it.

Owen

Lots of people DON'T want to do it. To us, it is the same as locking us up and throwing away the key. I look at friends, and colleagues spending literally tens of thousands on their kids, and all they can discuss is their kids. It's quite revolting to be honest.

To the rest of us that haven't managed to be brain washed by the 'You must have kids foundation (tm)', we value the ability to travel the world at will, without planning. The ability to still go on wild holidays. The ability to buy nice, fun cars that don't have to conform to baby seats. To learn to fly, to take up new hobbies, etc.

And to the Parents on this forum who say all these things are still possible if you have kids? They probably are, in a diminished capacity for the normal wage earners, but only in full capacity for the uber-rich.

The rest of us will be happy and content Child Free. I'd much rather have a dog anyway, they're less hassle, and are trained in a year.

deisemum

ned78 wrote:

Lots of people DON'T want to do it. To us, it is the same as locking us up and throwing away the key. I look at friends, and colleagues spending literally tens of thousands on their kids, and all they can discuss is their kids. It's quite revolting to be honest.

To the rest of us that haven't managed to be brain washed by the 'You must have kids foundation (tm)', we value the ability to travel the world at will, without planning. The ability to still go on wild holidays. The ability to buy nice, fun cars that don't have to conform to baby seats. To learn to fly, to take up new hobbies, etc.

And to the Parents on this forum who say all these things are still possible if you have kids? They probably are, in a diminished capacity for the normal wage earners, but only in full capacity for the uber-rich.

The rest of us will be happy and content Child Free. I'd much rather have a dog anyway, they're less hassle, and are trained in a year.

I'm a mum and I agree with you that I don't like spending much time with "baby bores", some are just so excessive and can't talk about anything else. When I'm out with my friends I see it as "me" time and don't want to spend the night just talking about our children. My friends feel the same and the children don't get mentioned that often.

When my children were younger, they're 11 and 9 now I prefered going on holidays without them but now that they're older I enjoy bringing them with us and part of my enjoyment of the holiday is seeing how they enjoy themselves.

A cat is much easier work that a dog

seamus

ned78 wrote:

Lots of people DON'T want to do it. To us, it is the same as locking us up and throwing away the key. I look at friends, and colleagues spending literally tens of thousands on their kids, and all they can discuss is their kids. It's quite revolting to be honest.

That's an outsiders POV. And I'm an outsider too. It's a bit like a non-smoker attempting to convince a smoker that their habit is disgusting and useless. They just don't understand it, because they haven't been there. All they see is their own point of view. Again, I'm a non-smoker, but I appreciate the "you don't understand it till you've done it" bit.

Think of the last time you were in love (or your existing relationship if that's the case). Think about how you would do anything for that person, how you would lie face down in hot coals, so that they wouldn't burn their feet, and even when you spent €200 on flowers that would be dead in a week, you didn't regret it in the slightest, because their smile made it completely worth it. Multiply that feeling by 10,000, and you're still nowhere near the attachment and joy that a child brings to most people.

I've absolutely no problem with people making their choice one way or another. But when it's when they feel the need to rationalise their choice (without being prompted) or tell others why their choice is better, that I have a problem with it. Particularly when they have made their choice, and have no experience of the alternative choice.

Personally, I couldn't imagine doing this whole, "Yay, I'm a young professional with loads of money to spend on my and my girlfriend" thing for another 25 years. It gets boring quite quickly (not my girlfriend, obviously). My brothers have plenty of mates with kids. It doesn't seem to degrade or make them unhappy in the slightest.

Endasaurus

seamus wrote:

That's an outsiders POV. And I'm an outsider too. It's a bit like a non-smoker attempting to convince a smoker that their habit is disgusting and useless. They just don't understand it, because they haven't been there. All they see is their own point of view. Again, I'm a non-smoker, but I appreciate the "you don't understand it till you've done it" bit.

This is off-topic but I just want to dryly note that two of my friends started off with this odious logic and are now chain smokers. You may as well advocate heroin, suicide, or substitute anything you want for the word smoking.


On-topic, I never advocated one way or another that people should or shouldn't have children because its an extremely personal thing that you shouldn't do unless you're ready for it and if you still think of babies as whinging nappy-fillers devoid of any human qualities and potential as living beings, whose only function in life is to take away from your wants then you just aren't ready for one.


I'd advise you all to live the single life for as long as you can. I just worry that it might get lonely as the previous poster said without anyone to look after in this world, or to look after you as you get older.

Endasaurus

EDIT: Connection reset and it double posted. Apologies.

stovelid

ned78 wrote:

Lots of people DON'T want to do it.

I think you protest too much

The sad thing is that everybody feels the need to either be pro kids or anti kids. It's a personal choice and people should not feel that they have to shout about what they choose at the expense of others.

Personally speaking, I was anti kid until the end of my 20s/when I met my long term partner, as were most of my friends. They are now happy with kids so who am I to oppose that?

We changed our minds as we got older basically. A lot of people do and a lot of people don't.

Who cares?

Burning Eclipse

deisemum wrote:

I'm a mum and I agree with you that I don't like spending much time with "baby bores", some are just so excessive and can't talk about anything else. When I'm out with my friends I see it as "me" time and don't want to spend the night just talking about our children. My friends feel the same and the children don't get mentioned that often.

When my children were younger, they're 11 and 9 now I prefered going on holidays without them but now that they're older I enjoy bringing them with us and part of my enjoyment of the holiday is seeing how they enjoy themselves.

A cat is much easier work that a dog

Oh my god, news just in, it's possible to have children and still have a life.

Honestly, the holier than thou childfree in this thread could do with getting over themselves. You assume that because a person has children that all freedom is gone, which quite frankly, is rubbish.

lilkitten, "Being single, or not single, but just childless, allows us to talk about other things." are you listening to yourself? That is atrocious logic. It equates to saying that if you have children then that's all you're capable of talking about.

ned78, "To the rest of us that haven't managed to be brain washed by the 'You must have kids foundation (tm)'" Because if you happen to want children, there could be no logical reason for it! No, only brainwashing could explain something as crazy as wanting children.

Out of interest, the proponents of being childfree here, would you automatically rule out going out with a man/woman if they had a child from a previous relationship? Or end a relationship if a partner wanted children?

Owen

It's horses for courses. Some people want minuature replicas of themselves, some people don't. And I don't. I have a few friends in their early 40's without kids, and with no intention of having kids, and their quality of life is extraordinary.

DublinWriter

ned78 wrote:

I have a few friends in their early 40's without kids, and with no intention of having kids, and their quality of life is extraordinary.

Maybe you should qualify that by adding "...at the moment" to the end of your statement.

Balancing it out, my grandparents took great delight in doting over us, as most grandparents tend to do.

Sure, your friends in their early 40's can holiday a couple of times a year, go out when they like, but older years (60's/70's) can be pretty empty years, especially if a partner dies.

Having said all that, if these the 'good' old days, your friends probably would have gotten married and have had kids in their early 20's, so their kids would have been at kicking-out age when they hit their early 40's anyway!

Catari Jaguar

stovelid wrote:

Some of my mates have had kids and they are still the same, just a bit preoccupied and stressed which is understandable. It sounds like you were used to having their undivided attention on your terms and they now have other priorities. Get over it, TBH.

BTW, if you really feel so strongly about bratty kids, quit ranting and get out of teaching. We all remember certain teachers who just drew a wage and did nothing but stew in bitterness. Do yourself and the 'brats' a favour.

I don't hang out with my friends who have had kids. All they want to do is get really pissed cos they're depressed because they had accidental pregnancies in their late teens and they know they've ruined their life. Degrees thrown away, a chance at a future is gone, still living at home while the tax payer picks up the tab. Many of the babies have no contact with their fathers. It's something that i completely disagree with and to go along with them would be hypocritical.

Teachers don't teach 0-4 do they? No. We're the ones there to pick up the pieces in your children's lives because you're out working to try to make something of your life now that you have children. Oh sure, you can still live your life as long as the creche is there or a nanny. Nice parenting. I see the repercussions in the children. I've come across depressed children, neglected or abused children, children dying for some attention, acting out, still wetting the bed because they can't handle their parents divorce etc. and all they get is another DVD because mammy and daddy are too busy with their own lives to spend time with them.

A child isn't a box to tick off or another thing to add to your list of things to do before you're 40. "You have a career, fancy holidays, a big car and a child?? How do you do it?" Well... the nice job pays for the child to be raised for me. It's also not a reason just to get a council house and a few easy quid.

If you want a child raised properly and healthily, you need to give it the time and devotion it needs, that means TWO parents there for it. Mostly it's up to schools to give the children the attention and stability they need.

seamus

Endasaurus wrote:

This is off-topic but I just want to dryly note that two of my friends started off with this odious logic and are now chain smokers. You may as well advocate heroin, suicide, or substitute anything you want for the word smoking.

Well, without dragging this too much off-topic, there is a certain amount of sense in it. The reason that most anti-drugs campaigns fail (IMO), is because the campaigners/organisers don't understand the mindset. Whatever about having taken drugs, they haven't been involved in the culture, and so are attempting to eradicate something that they don't understand.

Of course, having a child isn't necessarily something you can try for a while and hand it back if you don't like it, or if you change your mind (much like smoking, shooting up, suicide etc etc). You can borrow someone else's child, but that doesn't really compare. Which is a main reason why I would respect someone's right to make a decision either way.

Endasaurus

Lots of people have claimed lots of different friends by now who are happy/not happy with/without kids and all of varying ages.


Surely this shows that you level of happiness dosen't have to be dependant on the having or not having of children, but if thats the case that fair dues. I do consider it an investment in the future though, but only if you're totally prepared to raising a child properly which a lot of people just aren't.

DublinWriter

Endasaurus wrote:

I do consider it an investment in the future though, but only if you're totally prepared to raising a child properly which a lot of people just aren't.

Jesus wept, having a kid is not like having a Tracker Bond.

Love does come into it somewhere the last time I checked, and with a kid love is spelt t-i-m-e.

Endasaurus

Hahah, if you prefer less robotic language an emotional investment then, whatever you put in you'll get back in years to come!

Owen

DublinWriter wrote:

Maybe you should qualify that by adding "...at the moment" to the end of your statement.

Why? Nearly every parent on this thread is bordering on agressiveness trying to convince us happy-childfree posters that we're wrong wrong wrong. Some people just don't want kids, and don't see the point of them.

Nevyn

Lil Kitten wrote:

I don't hang out with my friends who have had kids. All they want to do is get really pissed cos they're depressed because they had accidental pregnancies in their late teens and they know they've ruined their life. Degrees thrown away, a chance at a future is gone, still living at home while the tax payer picks up the tab. Many of the babies have no contact with their fathers. It's something that i completely disagree with and to go along with them would be hypocritical.

Teachers don't teach 0-4 do they? No. We're the ones there to pick up the pieces in your children's lives because you're out working to try to make something of your life now that you have children. Oh sure, you can still live your life as long as the creche is there or a nanny. Nice parenting. I see the repercussions in the children. I've come across depressed children, neglected or abused children, children dying for some attention, acting out, still wetting the bed because they can't handle their parents divorce etc. and all they get is another DVD because mammy and daddy are too busy with their own lives to spend time with them.

A child isn't a box to tick off or another thing to add to your list of things to do before you're 40. "You have a career, fancy holidays, a big car and a child?? How do you do it?" Well... the nice job pays for the child to be raised for me. It's also not a reason just to get a council house and a few easy quid.

If you want a child raised properly and healthily, you need to give it the time and devotion it needs, that means TWO parents there for it. Mostly it's up to schools to give the children the attention and stability they need.

Boy are you bitter.
Not all parents are like that, in fact most aren't but you are right that there is
currently a parenting crisis for families are not supported the way the once where. There should be parenting classes and adults tought how to sit and play with thier kids.

It used to be that extended family helped raise children, it was aunties and uncles and friends and grandparents.

I mean I can't think the last time any of my siblings offered to or infact babysat thier only neice or nephew they were too busy with their childfree lives, how many parents would benefit if 1 evening out 4 weeks or 6 weeks each family memeber would give them a break.

I am lucky that I do get a lot of time out butt hat id sue to the father of my children doing his fair share.

Parents are not the only ones who have children in thier lives ffs.

I hate child bores.
I can't stand people who don't have anything else to talk about other then soaps or mindless gossip or thier kids.
You will only get trapped in the slavery to your kids if you let yourself and it can be down with out neglecting the kids.

Nevyn

ned78 wrote:

Why? Nearly every parent on this thread is bordering on agressiveness trying to convince us happy-childfree posters that we're wrong wrong wrong. Some people just don't want kids, and don't see the point of them.

I have plenty of friend and family who never want to have kids for thier own reasons and I respect them for that. But that does not mean they are not included when there is a birthday or a trip to the zoo or the beach.
They will come along and have fun and play if they wish.

If someone does not wish to have children then that is fine but wanting all children put away so you don't have to interact with them ever like the kingdom
in chitty chitty bang bang makes for a very intolerant place to live.

Owen

Listen, I don't hate Kids. My sister has 5, and I love playing with them, and teaching them how to do things, but I don't have a paternal instinct, and I can say with convinction that I genuinely won't have either. This is the bit where all the posters come along to tell me I'll change my mind in time, or I'll be lonely when I'm 80.

DublinWriter

ned78 wrote:

Why? Nearly every parent on this thread is bordering on agressiveness trying to convince us happy-childfree posters that we're wrong wrong wrong. Some people just don't want kids, and don't see the point of them.

The 'why' ned, is because nearly every argument I see here for not having kids is a variation on the theme "being free to do what you want".

My point is that you should consider your life as a whole.

...and I really am not picking up any agressiveness from the parents arguing on here Ned.

But I think by going generally into the pros and cons of having kids that we're wandering off the OP's original point of how she feels society perceives her for being childless?!

Owen

DublinWriter wrote:

...and I really am not picking up any agressiveness from the parents arguing on here Ned.

That's why I said "bordering on".

DublinWriter wrote:

But I think by going generally into the pros and cons of having kids that we're wandering off the OP's original point of how she feels society perceives her for being childless?!

I'm constantly under pressure to reproduce, to settle down, to buy houses, and I will not conform to someone else's idea of how my life should be lived. To the OP, neither should you. What makes you happy should be the only concern in your life.

DublinWriter

ned78 wrote:

I'm constantly under pressure to reproduce, to settle down, to buy houses...by
colleagues, friends, and family

Ned, this I am curious about. What do they do/say to you exactly?

NextSteps

seamus wrote:

Personally, I couldn't imagine doing this whole, "Yay, I'm a young professional with loads of money to spend on my and my girlfriend" thing for another 25 years. It gets boring quite quickly (not my girlfriend, obviously). My brothers have plenty of mates with kids. It doesn't seem to degrade or make them unhappy in the slightest.

I think for many (not all) people, it's a life stages thing. When you're doing the whole "young professional with loads of money and time" thing, that's fine, but people often get to the stage of thinking "great, now I feel ready to move on to another stage in my life". And for many people having children is that next stage. It needn't be, of course, but it's a logical one in many ways. You can't do the same thing forever, unless of course it's some kind of vocation.

And of course there are communication differences between people who are doing different things. Like how, once you've been out of school a few years, stories of what you got up to at Irish College just aren't as interesting any more. Or if you don't have a house and your friends do, it's hard to go through an evening of discussing paint colours or mortgage options.

Tolerance!

Owen

DublinWriter wrote:

By whom and how?

Colleagues, friends, and family.

HashSlinging

The way some people are describing children/parents in this thread, its sort of sickening, if not verging on abuse. I think some people here really need to look at themselves.

Also I think there is a fair bit of trolling going on by Lil Kitten, you in particular, you are obviously not a teacher of children, if you are I'd be very concerned about their welfare, BTW why are you on the net when supposed to be teaching.

You really are coming across as a very ignorant person, whos had a grudge and I think you've underestimated the level of intelligence of people on here, you should retract some of your comments or be banned IMO.

stovelid

ned78 wrote:

Colleagues, friends, and family.

My heart bleeds for you.

I can *maybe* understand the subtle societal pressure on women in their 30's but come on, ffs.

None of the parents (or just pro paternals) here are being aggressive IMO. They're just pointing out that they have chosen a different life to you and it's not necessarily full of misery.

What's the problem with that.

DublinWriter wrote:

Jesus wept, having a kid is not like having a Tracker Bond.
.

Lolled @ this. Classic.

OLDYELLAR

I started to read this thread but I had to stop , for all the people who have replied with answers such as people with kids are jealous of us free and single people Id just like to point out that you are spastics!

I know plenty of people in their early 20`s with kids and they wouldnt change them for the world and they still live their lives to the full and love their little ones to bits and jesus christ based on what I read Im fairly certain there not jealous of ye.
This thread is some load a sh*t. and Lil kitten you need to have a serious chat with yerself. Dont bother quoting me either an tellin me you feel sorry for me and my opinions because I couldnt give 2 f*ks .Your name just stood out because of over genaralised and in my opinion stoopid comments saying everybody that has a kid hates theirselves and their lives. F*k sake!

nesf

DublinWriter wrote:

Maybe you should qualify that by adding "...at the moment" to the end of your statement.

Balancing it out, my grandparents took great delight in doting over us, as most grandparents tend to do.

I was going to make a similar point. For all the stress and pressure my parents and simu's parents seem to have a better quality of life since our son was born. They are happier, have more fun etc. But I'd say that it is horses for courses, both my parents and simu's parents are strongly pro-children, and by default strongly pro-grandchildren.