Selling of Motor Vehicles on Public Roads

chasm

Hi All, Leitrim Co Council placed this notice in the local paper on wednesday,

NOTICE RE SELLING OF MOTOR VEHICLES ON PUBLIC ROADS
Please note that is illegal to place motor vehicles on display for purposes of sale on or along public roads unless the owner has obtained a licence for this purpose in accordance with section 254 of the Planning and Dvelopment Act 2000. Anybody who contravenes this requirement shall be guilty of an offence which, on conviction can result in a substantial fine and imprisonment.
Leitrim Co Council is concerned at the growth of this illegal activity and the potential road safety risks associated with the display of vehicles for sale on or along public roads on the county.
Appropriate action will be taken against those who fail to comply with the above requirements.


Now i have a couple of issues with this, first up, let me state that i don't drive a car so i may well be slightly ignorant or naive about this but,

1, If your car has tax/insur/nct are you not allowed to park it where you like, so long as its not causing an obstruction or road markings etc dictate otherwise?
2, Do you have to pay for this licence? If so, is this not just another way of getting money out of motorists?
3, They state that there are potential road safety risks associated with this practice- Im sure we could list a hell of a lot more important issues that they could tackle than the selling of cars on the road side!
4.I think a few solicitors could find a few loopholes in this- but that shouldnt surprise me!!

sorry for the long thread and thanks for reading:)

ninty9er

County Council is 100% correct...the amount of people that use hard shoulders when looking at a car for sale is riduclous...plus these cars are a distraction that we could well do without

SoBe

Leitrim Co Council wrote:

Anybody who contravenes this requirement shall be guilty of an offence which, on conviction can result in a substantial fine and imprisonment.

lol they must have feck all to be bothering them,how the hell are they gona jail someone for selling a car? :rolleyes:

this contry has gone mad,mad i tell ye

EDIT: so if i live in a housing estate in leitrim and put a for sale sticker on my car i can be jailed or imprisoned for doing so? MADNESS

Guy:Incognito

[QUOTE=chasm
1, If your car has tax/insur/nct are you not allowed to park it where you like, so long as its not causing an obstruction or road markings etc dictate otherwise?
2, Do you have to pay for this licence? If so, is this not just another way of getting money out of motorists?
3, They state that there are potential road safety risks associated with this practice- Im sure we could list a hell of a lot more important issues that they could tackle than the selling of cars on the road side!
4.I think a few solicitors could find a few loopholes in this- but that shouldnt surprise me!!

sorry for the long thread and thanks for reading:)[/QUOTE]


1. You can park anywhere that legal, Idoubt parking on the grass on the side of a road is leagal, it's like a path or a field. I suppose it could also count as casual trading, which you need a licence for, which brings in pont 2. I'd assume the introducion of th eocence is to discourage people from doing it, I dont think they want you getting a licence and selling at the side of the road. It's probably a limitation of th elicence that you cant just pitch up anywhere and start selling.

3 dotn know about this but havign cars parked on the side of the road in bult up areas could be a hazard to pedestrians. Theres a main road out of my estate where the houses are set a good bit back from the road with a field between their road and the main road. Theres been plenty of cars over th eyears and quit a few lately parked on the grass with for sale signs. If nothing else it looks terrible, the cars look like they are abandoned.


4. I cant see anyone bothering to employ a solicitor to fight a case for selling 1 car.

ninty9er

SoBe wrote:

lol they must have feck all to be bothering them,how the hell are they gona jail someone for selling a car? :rolleyes:

this contry has gone mad,mad i tell ye

EDIT: so if i live in a housing estate in leitrim and put a for sale sticker on my car i can be jailed or imprisoned for doing so? MADNESS

Not if it's where you normally park legally

SoBe

ninty9er wrote:

Not if it's where you normally park legally

so how are they going to stop a legally parked car from being sold?

i think the councils of ireland should put more resourses where they are needed than to start putting my and everyones else's hard earned money into nutty schemes like this

EDIT: granted if someone has their car parked in such a bad way as to be obstructing someones view or cause a danger to someone then all it would take is a phone call to the local cop shop and have them go talk to the person and ask them to move it (eventually they would get round to do it ....honest they will)

maidhc

I think they are chancing their arm here:

From the legislation, the following requires a licence:

(a) a vending machine,
(b) a town or landscape map for indicating directions or places,
(c) a hoarding, fence or scaffold,
(d) an advertisement structure,
(e) a cable, wire or pipeline,
(f) a telephone kiosk or pedestal, or
(g) any other appliance, apparatus or structure, which may be prescribed as requiring a licence under this section,

I don't think there is any statutory instrument classifying a car as "an appliance, apparatus or structure under s254!

bo-bo

maidhc wrote:

I think they are chancing their arm here:

From the legislation, the following requires a licence:


I don't think there is any statutory instrument classifying a car as "an appliance, apparatus or structure under s254!

you hit the nail on the head dude. councils are using irelevant bye lays to solve their probs.

in wexford, they did exactly the same thing last year but i cant recall seeing any prosecutions arising from it.

scare tactics anyone?

galwaytt

Well, that notice is such a crock of ****.......

For a start, you only need licences - where required, as part of trade, casual or otherwise. A private individual, selling his personal private property, is not affected.

Secondly, as pointed out, the notice is not enforceable, as it's not specified in legislation. It would require a change in the legislation, to specify them, for it to be enforceable.

Also, they're in danger here of fouling their own planning laws. For instance, in rural areas especially, you are obliged to provide a parking space outside your property of approx 10' x 30', to cope with all those visitors (....you have that don't fit in your driveway at parties...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ) This parking space is often used for selling the cars, and it is private property - the absence or otherwise of a fence, does not mean the parking place is public space, and so they cannot touch it, or anything parked on it. To do so would be both trespass and interfering with a mechanically propelled vehicle without the owner's consent, and you are liable to prosecution and/or civil action for either........

In certain areas of Dublin (Dub 6, for example), the roads were designed with a wide green space outside the footpath, adjoining the road. This was, and is, an attractive way to do it. But it was done when space was not at a premium - financally or physically...- and when you were lucky if each house had 1 car.........now, with multi-car housholds, that space is commonly used as parking space, and the odd one even paved/gravelled over. Are they saying now that they're going to remove all these cars too, some of which may have FS signs on them, as having the FS sign in itself is not illegal....??

I haven't even checked to see who owns those spaces, either.........it could well be the homeowners in which case............

I cant see anyone bothering to employ a solicitor to fight a case for selling 1 car.

....you'd be surprised. I hope if it comes to it, that someone does...........

Seth Brundle

String em up. Sure they are only advertising boy racer meets and/or selling drugs!

chasm

maidhc wrote:

I think they are chancing their arm here:

From the legislation, the following requires a licence:


I don't think there is any statutory instrument classifying a car as "an appliance, apparatus or structure under s254!

I agree, I thought that sounded a bit sketchy when i read it on this http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA30Y2000S254.html
Sure if council's are going to be that pedantic then can we expect to see people convicted for having Estate Agent signs in fields advertising a house for sale a mile down the road? Some of them ARE dangerous, especially if you are trying to exit a junction.

What really annoys me is that if this is the best Leitrim CoCo can do as regards improving road safety then the whole of leitrim would be as well sell their cars (not on the roadside of course!!). I mean people are dying on our country's roads everyday and LCC decide that stopping people selling their cars on the side of the road is going to help!

Victor

I suspect this is targeted at garages, not privates sellers with one vehicle.

mike65

Indeedy, garages are the worst offenders in my opinion.

Mike.

Tipsy Mac

What a load of rubbish, I think if the car is taxed, nct'd and insured provided it's legally parked it should be left alone.

Around my area I spotted a FG Councillors SUV stickered with all his promotional rubbish parked on the footpath all day, I would think this is alot more of an obstruction than anyone selling a car parked legally somewhere.

testicle

maidhc wrote:

I think they are chancing their arm here:

From the legislation, the following requires a licence:


I don't think there is any statutory instrument classifying a car as "an appliance, apparatus or structure under s254!

Yeah there is

An Advertising Structure.

timmywex

OP: wexford co council did this many moons ago, and now the thing is to ban election posters near accident balckspots

Victor

Victor wrote:

I suspect this is targeted at garages, not privates sellers with one vehicle.

I would disagree, in fact I would say its garages that are members of SIMI that are pressuring the council to do this.

Just have a look on their page at http://www.simi.ie

They have harped on about this for years with all the "fly by night" importers around making silly money off Jap imports.
Many of them don't worry themselves with silly things like guarantees, VAT, correct VRT, corporation tax or selling vehicles that will pass the NCT! All the things SIMI member garages for the most part do.

dermot_sheehan

maidhc wrote:

I think they are chancing their arm here:

From the legislation, the following requires a licence:
(a) a vending machine,
(b) a town or landscape map for indicating directions or places,
(c) a hoarding, fence or scaffold,
(d) an advertisement structure,
(e) a cable, wire or pipeline,
(f) a telephone kiosk or pedestal, or
(g) any other appliance, apparatus or structure, which may be prescribed as requiring a licence under this section,

I don't think there is any statutory instrument classifying a car as "an appliance, apparatus or structure under s254!

Prescribed under the planning regulations:
http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/0/fad163d4e576ac3a80256fa3003d0f77/$FILE/part17.pdf

The following appliances, apparatus and structures
are hereby prescribed as requiring a licence under
section 254 of the Act of 2000—
(a) a case, rack, shelf or other appliance, apparatus
or structure for displaying articles for the
purposes of advertisement or of sale in, or in
connection with, any adjacent business
premises,
(b) tables and chairs outside a hotel, restaurant,
public house or other establishment where food
is sold for consumption on the premises,
(c) a coin-operated machine other than a vending
machine,
(d) an advertisement consisting of any text, symbol,
emblem, model, device or logo,
(e) a pipe or appliance with a pipe attachment for
dispensing air or water not being a a pipe or
appliance attached to a petrol or oil pump,
(f) a weighing machine,
(g) a bring facility,
(h) a cabinet used as part of a wired broadcast relay
service by a person licensed under the Wireless
Telegraphy (Wired Broadcast Relay Licence)
Regulations, 1974 (S.I. No. 67 of 1974),
(i) a lamp-post,
(j) a bridge, arch, tunnel, passage or other similar
149
structure which is used or intended for use other
than by the public and was constructed on or
after 1 October 1964,
(k) a cellar or other underground structure
constructed on or after 1 October 1964,
(l) a cable for conducting electricity for domestic
or agricultural purposes.

It seems to cover it if it's for an adjoining car dealership. They could also argue the car with a notice is an "advertisement". Advertisement is given a wide definition by the definition section of the Planning and Development Act:

"advertisement" means any word, letter, model, balloon, inflatable structure, kite, poster, notice, device or representation employed for the purpose of advertisement, announcement or direction;

maidhc

gabhain7 wrote:

Prescribed under the planning regulations:
http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/0/fad163d4e576ac3a80256fa3003d0f77/$FILE/part17.pdf

It seems to cover it if it's for an adjoining car dealership. They could also argue the car with a notice is an "advertisement". Advertisement is given a wide definition by the definition section of the Planning and Development Act:

A car isn't the first thing that springs to mind here! In fact I have no idea what the provision is attempting to say, but I think it is fair to assume the car is what is for sale here, not that it is advertising something else. Perhaps the section would catch a drug deal who parks his car outside his house with a "for sale". It might catch those runners over the telegraph wires too...

When interpreting statutes you can't completely abuse the english language.

(a) a case, rack, shelf or other appliance, apparatus
or structure for displaying articles for the
purposes of advertisement or of sale in, or in
connection with, any adjacent business
premises,

It also worth noting that the aforemetioned licence is something in the region of €700 PA, and I suspect the car would be a bit rusty by the time you would have obtained one.

By all means ban the sale of cars at the side of the road if there is a reason for it (I personally doubt it), but this is a long shot.

mike65

ronoc wrote:

I would disagree, in fact I would say its garages that are members of SIMI that are pressuring the council to do this.

Just have a look on their page at http://www.simi.ie

They should have a word with a few dealers I pass regularly, they happily park large cars/4x4s on verges at the exits of thier own premises so boosting the chances of an accident. One way of generating repeat business I guess.

Mike.

maidhc

mike65 wrote:

They should have a word with a few dealers I pass regularly, they happily park large cars/4x4s on verges at the exits of thier own premises so boosting the chances of an accident. One way of generating repeat business I guess.

Mike.

Dangerous parking is a separate offence in itself that the Gardai can prosecute!

Our man in Havana

Indeed, it's one of the few arrestable traffic offences too!

galwaytt

gabhain7 wrote:

They could also argue the car with a notice is an "advertisement". Advertisement is given a wide definition by the definition section of the Planning and Development Act:

No they can't, a car is already defined as a vehicle. It cannot be two items. If you were to carry your logic, the VW badge on the back is an advertisement, or the dealers sticker on the back window............which of course, is a nonsense.

So, we'll ban cars too because they have a.....NCT/Insurance/Tax Disc too, seeing as they are 'notices' also. :rolleyes: Heck, why not file a litter complaint with Leitrim Co Co for all the NCT/Tax Discs littering the sides of the road.........suspended by large brackets (i.e., cars....LOL)

il gatto

chasm wrote:

Hi All, Leitrim Co Council placed this notice in the local paper on wednesday,

NOTICE RE SELLING OF MOTOR VEHICLES ON PUBLIC ROADS
Please note that is illegal to place motor vehicles on display for purposes of sale on or along public roads unless the owner has obtained a licence for this purpose in accordance with section 254 of the Planning and Dvelopment Act 2000. Anybody who contravenes this requirement shall be guilty of an offence which, on conviction can result in a substantial fine and imprisonment.
Leitrim Co Council is concerned at the growth of this illegal activity and the potential road safety risks associated with the display of vehicles for sale on or along public roads on the county.
Appropriate action will be taken against those who fail to comply with the above requirements.


Now i have a couple of issues with this, first up, let me state that i don't drive a car so i may well be slightly ignorant or naive about this but,

1, If your car has tax/insur/nct are you not allowed to park it where you like, so long as its not causing an obstruction or road markings etc dictate otherwise?
2, Do you have to pay for this licence? If so, is this not just another way of getting money out of motorists?
3, They state that there are potential road safety risks associated with this practice- Im sure we could list a hell of a lot more important issues that they could tackle than the selling of cars on the road side!
4.I think a few solicitors could find a few loopholes in this- but that shouldnt surprise me!!

sorry for the long thread and thanks for reading:)

If the person wishing to sell their car is from anywhere near Carrick, they'll end up parking it across from Supermacs, which is in Cortober, which is Roscommon, so Leitrim Co.Co. can kiss their shiny metal ass.:D

Bradidup

kbannon wrote:

String em up. Sure they are only advertising boy racer meets and/or selling drugs!

I have heard similar, a contact number would be desplayed on a car on the roadside for an Illegal Race. To the cops and an average person it would look like a car for sale.

mike65

Urban legend I suspect. I'd use message boards and txts if that was my game.

Mike.

testicle

It started from some TD in the Wesht giving out about it.

wingnut

As mentioned already the TDs are at the same thing lately. Down around Clonmel last week and all the Hillbilly TDs had stuff everywhere. Mattie Mg Grath the FF candiate has bought a bloody big old bus, decked it out with his mugshot and abandoned it on the side of the road in Knocklofty. Lock the fecker up!! Its a pretty ignorant thing to do, waste of money and resources.

chasm

wingnut wrote:

As mentioned already the TDs are at the same thing lately. Down around Clonmel last week and all the Hillbilly TDs had stuff everywhere. Mattie Mg Grath the FF candiate has bought a bloody big old bus, decked it out with his mugshot and abandoned it on the side of the road in Knocklofty. Lock the fecker up!! Its a pretty ignorant thing to do, waste of money and resources.

I see that it is one rule for us and another for them!!
Now, why doesnt that surprise me?