Fear over rise in handgun applications

maglite

but the guards advise to keep it out of sight

i think they mean in a pelican case or the like
this mainly falls under common sence

Clare gunner

As in the college was anti gun,students,unions, professors ,etc.And made it publically known and inbuilt in the laws of the place.Also plasterd the place with no gun stickers...Sooo draw your own conclusions.

Sparks,could we change the cartoon to where it is VT to Irish gunowners,and have the political parties comong in for dinner????:(

Reckon Cormac needs more than just a letter...A mob of pi334d off gun owners ringing the editorial desk and demanding an apology or there will be libel writs issued against the paper for group libel.???

Concealed carry...Yes,offesive weapons act 1992,carrying an offensive weapon in a public place without good reason or cause.
Meaning the worried superintendants have plenty of law to arrest anyone daft enough sitting down in the pub with their gun in a shoulder rig bragging to their mates.

Dr Strange

What I don't understand is why they always look at extreme examples and restrictions.

Why not look at, say, Switzerland. There everyone above 18 years of age has the right to apply for a firearm and also carry it. You see people carrying their target rifle/pistol, shotguns, hunting-rifles from one place to another (mostly in rifle bags) or even the young soldiers doing national service with their rifles at a train station (openly) and yet you don't have any significant amount of gun-related crime and/or shooting sprees like in other countries. Now as far as I know the gun/rifle per citizen in Switzerland is quite high, probably similar to the U.S. And yet Swiss citizens can enjoy their sport quite freely. What do they do, what do they have in place that works so well that other countries don't? Similarily in Austria, where you can get your licence at low cost and enjoy your hobby.

Best,
Preusse

astraboy

Clare gunner wrote:

Concealed carry...Yes,offesive weapons act 1992,carrying an offensive weapon in a public place without good reason or cause.
Meaning the worried superintendants have plenty of law to arrest anyone daft enough sitting down in the pub with their gun in a shoulder rig bragging to their mates.

I assume "good reason or cause" would cover anyone walking along a backroad or access road if they were entering fields to go shooting etc?

astraboy

Preusse wrote:

What I don't understand is why they always look at extreme examples and restrictions.

Why not look at, say, Switzerland. There everyone above 18 years of age has the right to apply for a firearm and also carry it. You see people carrying their target rifle/pistol, shotguns, hunting-rifles from one place to another (mostly in rifle bags) or even the young soldiers doing national service with their rifles at a train station (opnely) and yet you don't have any significant amount of gun-related crime and/or shooting sprees like in other countries. Now as far as I know the gun/rifle per citizen in Switzerland is quite high, probably similar to the U.S. And yet Swiss citizens can enjoy their sport quite freely. What do they do, what do they have in place that works so well that other countries don't? Similarily in Austria, where you can get your licence at low cost and enjoy your hobby.

Best,
Preusse

Canada also has a similar ratio of firearms to people. It may be down to attitude, education and the process of licensing itself. Perhaps in Ireland we are gone too far the other way, unless someone is involved in, or knows someone involved in sport shooting guns are considered an evil. If another 50,000 people get handgun licenses over the next 10 years it won't have an impact on gun crime or shootings as long as the owners are responsible and keep their shooting on the range. As Ireland is so small, almost parochial compared to other countries, it would only take one incident of a guy with his new hand gun flashing it around the local pub to make headlines and ruin any progress the shooting organizations have made.

Dr Strange

astraboy wrote:

Canada also has a similar ratio of firearms to people. It may be down to attitude, education and the process of licensing itself. Perhaps in Ireland we are gone too far the other way, unless someone is involved in, or knows someone involved in sport shooting guns are considered an evil. If another 50,000 people get handgun licenses over the next 10 years it won't have an impact on gun crime or shootings as long as the owners are responsible and keep their shooting on the range. As Ireland is so small, almost parochial compared to other countries, it would only take one incident of a guy with his new hand gun flashing it around the local pub to make headlines and ruin any progress the shooting organizations have made.

Yes, I agree. I only mentioned the "closer" European cousins as I am more familiar with the systems there. It also sometimes vexes me that England And The U.S. are chosen as role-models for some policies here. I understand that is mostly because of the historically close connection between Ireland and these countries but I don't think it would do any harm to look at how other European countries work (not only firearms but also health system, etc.) and maybe pick and choose what may be best suited for this country.

Best,
Preusse

astraboy

I agree with you there man. Perhaps we continue to look to the UK as it is our closest neighbor in cultural terms and our legal system has its basis in the system set up by them before independence. Looking to other countries such as Spain and Italy could give us some new ideas. Anyone know what the licensing system for firearms is in these countries and how restrictive/liberal it is?

Dr Strange

astraboy wrote:

I agree with you there man. Perhaps we continue to look to the UK as it is our closest neighbor in cultural terms and our legal system has its basis in the system set up by them before independence. Looking to other countries such as Spain and Italy could give us some new ideas. Anyone know what the licensing system for firearms is in these countries and how restrictive/liberal it is?

Not too sure about Spain and Italy (I could probably enquire though) but I heard that Belgium is quite liberal as well, even with holding historical military small arms in working order. Have to check this. From a collector's point of view it is a teribble thing to "castrate" a nice P08 or P38 with matching serial numbers or even a MP34o etc.

Best,
Preusse

Spyral

shooting bottles targets is fun I use my bros rifle (with his supervision etc even though I'm older than him o.^ )

but I think that the whole VT thing is way out of proportion.

Additionally what exactly are the requirements for owning say a .22 revolver or something ?
In the country you can get farmers permission and say its for vermin thought techinichally if they catchy you popping holes in targets they can take it off you.

newby.204

Spyral wrote:

shooting bottles targets is fun I use my bros rifle (with his supervision etc even though I'm older than him o.^ )

but I think that the whole VT thing is way out of proportion.

Additionally what exactly are the requirements for owning say a .22 revolver or something ?
In the country you can get farmers permission and say its for vermin thought techinichally if they catchy you popping holes in targets they can take it off you.

not quite the posting we are looking for under the current circumstances, you shoot look into a pistol club local to your area and go speak to members and enquire about target shooting!!!

Chipboard

Yes, well done Sparks. I think we're all pretty sick of being painted as the bad guys.

ironsight wrote:

If I were in their position I would be more concerned with the apparant lack of knowledge and understanding displayed by the "Garda Siochana"

I don't believe for one second that a member of the Gardai was the source of that story. In fact I believe that it is a serious breach of the Garda code to communicate with the media except through/with the approval of the Garda press office. Senior Gardai are unlikely to be putting their pensions in jeopardy just to lick up to some journalist.

Journalists are espected to fill column inches regardless of whether there is news to print or not. Many of the stories you read everyday are fabricated and some are just old news which they resurrect so that they can get a pay packet.

I have got so sick of reading rubbish in the papers that at this stage the only paper I buy is the Sunday Business Post. Its not very exciting but atleast the vast majority of what is printed in it is true.

Maybe there should be a forum called MediaWatch where people could expose untruths printed in the newspapers. It would certainly be kept busy. You could have a league table with the paper which gets the most mention being given an award every month.

BryanL

Preusse,
makes a great point at looking slightly further a field for news and comparisons,i was amazed recently in Oslo airport to see 4 Norwegian hunting magazines and they all seemed to have a mix of sporting and target guns,biathalon,hounds fishing and even terriers.
all very open and often visual,considering then have a similar population to us i was impressed
Bryan

Clare gunner

The Examiner article.Well here on this board there is a section on journalism,news and media.So maybe untruths and lies and such could be noted there/Also we have the national Union of Journalists and a press complaints board. Now,we have to find out abit about that cock and bull story,as to who did Mc hugh talk to etc.If the complaints are loud enough and the press complaints are informed they must act on this.as the freedom of the press isnt grauenteed here either:) ,and they were bitching and moaning about their "freedoms" an how Mc Dowell was acting up on them.Maybe a bit of their own medicine is in order....???

It is time that politicans,Gardai and Press realise that Irish gunowners are NOT a soft touch anymore and pardon the pun we are coming out of the closet and will gun for anyone who wrongs us.:(

Yes looking afield is good and all very well.BUT do you Bryan realise how difficult the Noreweign[sic] and Swedish hunting and shooting test is?????
Ditto for French,German.[You want to make a lifestyle choice based on your hunting?]Ditto for Italy and Spain or France?

Look deeper folks.Sure you might get"more choice" in guns available to a liscensed hunter/sport shooter.BUT the point to get there makes our system look extremly[which in EU gun ownership liscensing terms] is pretty easy going.
Do you want to spend[speaking on the German hunting test as I know this the best] To spend; three years in a classroom every week going thru,botany,zooology of each hunted species both game and vermin,forestry,law on;firearms,[a 12 point subsection of the course alone]
music[so you recognise the signal horns],dog handling and training[compulsory if you hunt big game for sent tracking],game handling and butchering.
THEN a practical test on shooting with rifle,shotgun,handgun[?] 90 out of 100 score. THEN an oral test on all above.
Oh and while you are doing all that,find a consortium that will take you on and sign you off on reserve work.IE building tree stands,feeding deer in Winter,counting large ant hills in the forest[a protected work of nature in Germany].Dealing with road kills,and farmers whose corn has been eaten by wild pigs or deer.As a German hunter you are responsible for game damage to crops,[can run appx 5k a year if not more]. Shall I go on.....:eek:
Grass isnt greener on the other side folks.Sure learn from them,but dont think it is eay peezy in EU land either.

Preusse
Ande lander,andre Sitten.[trans other countries,other customs]
Yes Switzerland is great,BUT remember the gunownership thing is built into their national defence strategy of a "Minuteman"style army.And it is hence quite acceptable and has been for generations for the Swiss to have firearms openly for that very reason.Plus,they have the harshest penalties for armed robberies etc.It's 20 years automatically.No if's or buts,and it is enforced.
For Ireland to have such a firearms law setup,we would have to have a compleate sea change in Irish life,it wont happen here.We look too much to the UK and Commonwealth still on these things,and we still are really not too comfortable with being a nation in some ways as we are still divided along Civil war lines in many ways in politics here.which makes people with guns an uncomfortable thought and topic in the Dail,especially with NI situation of 35 odd years.

Spain,Italy,Belguim liscenses

Belguim was pretty liberal on that untill last year,when they had a massacare of Muslims or other folk.The usual bad boys got it.Semi autos,handguns etc.
It was pretty easy to buy deacts over there,and in some cases the react kit on the other side of the market in Leige.Belguim has a pretty big arms industry,so I dunno how badly it affected the average gun owner. Do know,that it isnt the hardest place to aquire guns in the EU.

Spain,
Do have firing ranges,exellent hunting there.Not the hardest if you are resident and espanol.It is handled with the usual Mediterrianian way.[The offical way and the unoffical way.]Go figure and how well do you know the local mayor and commandante of the Gaurdia Civil.The offical way looks a major PITA.:eek: The unoffical way..a lot easier:eek: :eek:

Italy,
Major headache,from what I gather.Mil calibres,and handguns are right out,unless you can provide good reason and then anything is no problem...[if you know the correct palms to grease].It is so ludicrious and strict with military ammo the US secret service in the 1980s orderd 9x21mm conversion kits for their UZIs,as the Italians refused them point blank to be allowed into the country in the std 9x19mm!!! Ditto with the 9mm pistols,upgrade to 10mm
It is a joke,unless you are somthing well up the food chain with somone else.
Surpriseingly if you live outside the cities and further south shotguns are not too much of a problem.The Italians call hunting "una Grande Passiona" the great passion,and they live up to it.EVERYTHING gets shot.Inc at least a half doz Italian hunters per hunting season.:eek: Kevelar is a good choice whilst hunting in Italy.they are mad!!![Speaking from personal experiancon this one.]

Dr Strange

Hi CG,

yes, that is indeed correct, the hunting licence is completely different in germany and much more strict than here. My grandfather did his a couple of years ago and only because his brothers are hunters for the last 30 odd years and he wanted to own his own gun. Mind you he was 70! when he did the final test and got it.

As for target shooting, we have the Schuetzenvereine (Shooters Associations) usually one if not more in each village,town and city (they actually provided members for the Reichswehr between 1918 and 1930) as shooting was part of a "healthy young man's physical education". They are very traditionalist and enjoy the backing of their communities. They usually have at least one big competition each year where the Schuetzenkoenig (Shooting King) and his queen are chosen. Uniforms are part of the membership when taking part in annual parades etc.
For a new member to join, he/she will have to shoot for about a year within the club with strictly regulated shooting books filled in by the club administrator. This books are checked by the local governments and only after a years training (the book will show when you did your shooting, what your scores were etc.) would you be able to apply for your fireamrs licences. This means you just can't join and wait a year without showing up at the club and get your gun/rifle. And it provides the necessary training within that year for shooting (not for hunting - as CG pointed out, that takes much longer because you are expected to learn about the wild life in your country first and in detail before you are allowed to shoot game. That would be more like a forrester or ranger in other countries).

I don't think the idea of a basic training before a licence can be granted would do much to to put official minds at rest as it shows committment to the hobby and not just someone who "wants to get a gun/rifle quickly".
In my opinion, the proof of proficiency in the safe handling and use of firearms should be a requirement before granting that licence.

Best,
Preusse

BryanL

Clare gunner,yes i was aware of all the exams,the point i was making was just how open they are about their hunting and very proud.Hunting animals is a non issue in those countries which impresses me.The F.A.C.E. site seems to show that Ireland has one of the highest % of hunters in Europe,but it's easy to think we are a tiny group.
Alot of the debate in Ireland is from just looking across the water,the Tanaiste wants to bring in ASBO's?do we have to ape everything done in England,where asbo's have failed.
Foxhunting is banned and it's almost assumed we should follow!
I think if everyone in Ireland who shot let it be widely known they shot, that it just might change alot of perceptions, and we should always be aware it's a big world.
Bryan

Clare gunner

yes, that is indeed correct, the hunting licence is completely different in germany and much more strict than here. My grandfather did his a couple of years ago and only because his brothers are hunters for the last 30 odd years and he wanted to own his own gun. Mind you he was 70! when he did the final test and got it.

Wish him Waidmannsheil from me:) [traditional hunters greeting between hunters in Germany]Fair dues to him,not an easy feat at that age.
Forgot to mention one other thing.
Once you have the Hunters liscense as like the sport shooters liscense,you have it for life!!!

I don't think the idea of a basic training before a licence can be granted would do much to to put official minds at rest as it shows committment to the hobby and not just someone who "wants to get a gun/rifle quickly".
In my opinion, the proof of proficiency in the safe handling and use of firearms should be a requirement before granting that licence.

It's not a bad idea,but there is no real reason to go totally overboard like we do in Germany.I mean,ask any German hunter what some types of plants are now protected,and he will look at you blankly as well.Alot of that is is to sift out the totally non dedicated.
There is nothing wrong with somthing like the NRAs hunter saftey course,which also covers training in safe firearms handling.Unless you are a total klutz,you can pass this with an average of 85%
Trouble is;waiting times,stringent this or that.If somone wants to get a gun they will do all this if need be.

Bryan
I came out of the closet on that[if I was ever in it] years ago.I let everyone know I am a gunowner and hunter.Never lost a friendship,or girlfriend about it.
Told them straight out I hunt and shoot and fish,am pro gun ,and if they didnt like it...tough,I am not for changing.
That is my chacter,and I understand people are different and might have problems with this admitting to others they are gun owners/hunters.But that is a decision you have to make personally.
Agree with you we still look to England,and that always amazes me for a place that moans about "800years of oppression",we do have to ape all Westminister does.
.

Dr Strange

Clare gunner wrote:

Wish him Waidmannsheil from me:) [traditional hunters greeting between hunters in Germany]Fair dues to him,not an easy feat at that age.
Forgot to mention one other thing.
Once you have the Hunters liscense as like the sport shooters liscense,you have it for life!!!




It's not a bad idea,but there is no real reason to go totally overboard like we do in Germany.I mean,ask any German hunter what some types of plants are now protected,and he will look at you blankly as well.Alot of that is is to sift out the totally non dedicated.
There is nothing wrong with somthing like the NRAs hunter saftey course,which also covers training in safe firearms handling.Unless you are a total klutz,you can pass this with an average of 85%
Trouble is;waiting times,stringent this or that.If somone wants to get a gun they will do all this if need be.

I will tell him, CG! Thanks. He got his first boar of the year earlier this year. He always gets me the tusks mounted for the wall in my dining room

I see you mean the hunting part. I agree, that is not necessary over here. What I meant was the target shooting part and the one year club training before getting your own licence. That may put some minds at rest rather than just being able to go out and apply for a licence without any formal training. I know it is prerequisite to be a member of a club or have the letters of the landowners. Just showing some letters from landowners doesn't mean you are proficient in the use and handling of a firearm. Same as with the clubs. If they could provide a formal course for the shooter for at least, let's say 6 months (that is continous training each Saturday and/or Sunday for that time period) and then support their application for a firearms cert it may give the local Superintendent some peace of mind and the general public too.

Just my opinion.

Best,
Preusse

Economist has a leader on Gun Crime in the US...

Haven't read the full magazine yet but it makes ref to other stories in it.

Economist.com should have it as well but its a subscription service

astraboy

original_psycho wrote:

Economist has a leader on Gun Crime in the US...

Haven't read the full magazine yet but it makes ref to other stories in it.

Economist.com should have it as well but its a subscription service

Probably worth reading. I usually buy it when I can, plus its written and edited in London if I'm not mistaken so we would get a POV from someone based in the UK.

Rovi

original_psycho wrote:

Economist has a leader on Gun Crime in the US...

Haven't read the full magazine yet but it makes ref to other stories in it.

Economist.com should have it as well but its a subscription service

Is this the one?-

After the Virginia Tech massacre
America's tragedy

Apr 19th 2007
From The Economist print edition
Its politicians are still running away from a debate about guns

IN THE aftermath of the massacre at Virginia Tech university, etc, etc.

I seem to be able to link straight into it-
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9040170

Thats the one - doesn't actually say much apart from that there should be more control and has thrown in some gun crime statistics.

Will have a read of the rest of it tonight.

Clare gunner

Dont worry.TIME and Newsweek will have the usual full coverage with plenty of anti gun rehortic thrown in.:(

Economist wasn't that bad - was clearly on the anti-gun side but still a good read.

Sparks

Nice to see that the worst attack on us came from within...

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055081876

Clare gunner

As per usual!:rolleyes: love to know who the gutless snivelling S Parks is:(
He/she hasnt even the balls to sign their own proper name.
Wouldnt even bother replying to a piece of juvenile trash like that.

Just looking at the Examiner.
ANOTHER anti gun letter. A B Casserly ,of Waterfall,Co Cork.Blathering on about the US 2nd amendment and it's irrevlance today.
NOT ONE letter from our side!!!
OK as far as I am concerned the Examiner is an anti gun/fieldsports newspaper.As it is usuall y stuffed with anti foxhunting rants from the usual suspects,and one or two replies from the pro lobby,once in a blue moon.
Time to fire up the emails and faxes again lads???

BryanL

the workers in the Examiner are very pro hunting.I know the sub sports editer very well.he said a tiny few of the top guns are anti and they hold the reins.he also reckoned they didn't get many hunting letters.He'd gladly cover shooting sports if reports were sent in i know that much.They had a great piece by D o flynn on harrier hunting on foot 2 years back in the wednesday sports supplement.there are a few coursing and hound fanatics in the place.
Bryan

Clare gunner

Thats the problem with MOST major papers and TV stations in the Western World.Top floor decides all what the rest of us should think and know.
So the only top floor understands anything is loss of profits over their decisions and actions.
If the Sub editor doesnt consider a bunch of people complaining about a cock and bull story made up on a tragedy in the US as somthing newsworthy.He should consider a new job.:(

Hmm was just over at www.presscouncil.ie. Most intresting!! This article violates already from my breif reading at least THREE of the new ethic guidelines along with the editorial comment!!

BryanL

he's the sub sports editer.B

Sparks

Printed in the Irish Examiner today:

23 April 2007
Licensed gun-holders return fire on scaremongers

I WAS disgusted by your coverage of the 33 people murdered in Virginia — the bodies barely cold and people already using their deaths for political ends.

Reducing those lives to mere debating points was the most ghoulish aspect of the entire tragedy.

Could we not mourn the dead before trying to use their deaths to make ideological points? It was made even worse by your scaremongering and that of the gardaí who are misrepresenting the current situation with regard to Irish firearms law.

This scaremongering is dangerous and, because of that, we wish to correct those misrepresentations.

Firstly, firearms licence-holders are not permitted to walk the streets carrying loaded handguns. This is prohibited by a number of laws, including the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990. I would expect “senior gardaí” to know this.

Secondly, there is no urgent need to implement any measures in the Criminal Justice Act 2006.

Firearms licence-holders and clubs all over the country are already complying with the draft law BEFORE it comes into effect, despite the fact that enforcement of this law — at the cost of tens of thousands of euro to clubs — is completely illegal.

We do this because we wish to be safe. It is because we take ownership of the issue of safety like this, instead of waiting for the justice minister to impose inexpertly drafted measures, that there has never been an injury as a result of target shooting in Ireland.

Thirdly, there are no uncertain grounds for any garda superintendent at present when it comes to the licensing of firearms.

This is not thanks to the Department of Justice, but to shooters and the National Association of Regional Game Councils which took a case in the Supreme Court five years ago establishing beyond all doubt the primacy of the superintendent as the licensing authority in Ireland.

What the superintendent says goes. This is backed up by a Supreme Court case, Donne v Donoghue (2002). For senior gardaí to claim otherwise is reprehensible and dangerous.

Fourthly, it is deplorable for superintendents incorrectly to suggest legal obligations exist (for example, storing a firearm in a gun safe is not yet a legal obligation, it’s just what we all do because we’re not stupid). This undermines the moral authority of the entire force — something that should appal fellow gardaí and the public.

If the superintendents you cite know of a law being so openly broken, why are they taking no action other than anonymous complaints to a national newspaper? Why not arrest those breaking this law?

Fifthly, to suggest licensed firearms are regularly stolen and used in crime is nonsense. When asked in the Dáil to provide the number of licensed firearms stolen and then used in crime, we were informed by the justice minister that the gardaí were unable to keep track of such information.

So was the minister telling the truth to the Dáil or was your anonymous senior garda telling the truth to you?

Sixthly, there is no rule in the UK that pistols must be kept in a gun safe in a club and not moved without written permission. There is no such rule because there are no pistols other than air pistols legally owned in the UK, and there has been none since 1997 (which, tragically, has done nothing to stop the rise in gun crime there).

Finally, your decision to publish such a medley of half-truths and untruths from anonymous sources, and the use by those sources of the murders of 32 innocent people on the other side of the world as a means to advance a political agenda before the general election, was reprehensible.

Secretary
National Target Shooting Association Ltd

Sparks

"Licensed gun-holders return fire on scaremongers"

Should mention, by the way, that that wasn't the title I'd put on the letter!

I should also point out that the editing of the letter by the Examiner gives it a slightly different meaning in places. For example, the original read

when asked in the Dail to provide the number of licensed firearms which were stolen and then used in crime, we were informed by the Minister for Justice that the Gardai do not keep track of such information and do not have the ability to do so. So was the Minister telling the truth to the Dail or was your anonymous "Senior Garda" telling the truth to you?

while today's print version read

When asked in the Dáil to provide the number of licensed firearms stolen and then used in crime, we were informed by the justice minister that the gardaí were unable to keep track of such information. So was the minister telling the truth to the Dáil or was your anonymous senior garda telling the truth to you?

The tone's different - it's not that the gardai couldn't ever track the information - it's that they can't now (mainly because they just don't).