Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

muffler

Macroom Man wrote: »

Guy near me was given permission subject to not having a window which might overlook neighbour ( as you said). He ignored that and put window in: what is likely to happen now?
It does not affect me but people who want to build below him will be affected.

Probably nothing will happen unless its brought to the attention of the Planning Authority. If it is reported to them then it is up to them to deal with it by way of enforcement proceedings.

Macroom Man

muffler wrote: »

Probably nothing will happen unless its brought to the attention of the Planning Authority. If it is reported to them then it is up to them to deal with it by way of enforcement proceedings.

Thanks.
I feel a complaint coming on! The guy is not an ordinary Joe - he is a developer.

Thoie

Looking for a general opinion here. A friend of mine in Dublin has a house on a large site in a built up area. The current house was built in the 60s (I think - damn ugly square thing). The rest of the houses in the area are "nice" houses - old Georgian houses, 3 stories above ground. He wants to knock the existing yoke and put up something more in keeping with the neighbourhood (and also bigger). It would have the same footprint as the existing house, but would be taller - matching the height of the houses on either side. It seems to be constantly going back for planning approval. I would have thought the planners would have preferred something that would match in with the rest of the area?

RKQ

Sounds like this existing house might have some architectural merit.
There is also the belief that a building should reflect its era. Yes Georgian buildings are great. But a modern house built to "look" Georgian rarely looks good and some believe that a 2008 plastic Georgian building, inserted into a real Georgian streetscape can do more damage than good.

Its never simple.... I suggest your friend has a pre-planning meeting to try and iron out or resolve all the planning issues.

Isn't it strange how we all want the latest flat screen 50 inch HD tv yet we all seem to want to live in old mock Georgian or mock Victorian houses! Why is that?

Thoie

RKQ wrote: »

Sounds like this existing house might have some architectural merit.
There is also the belief that a building should reflect its era. Yes Georgian buildings are great. But a modern house built to "look" Georgian rarely looks good and some believe that a 2008 plastic Georgian building, inserted into a real Georgian streetscape can do more damage than good.

Its never simple.... I suggest your friend has a pre-planning meeting to try and iron out or resolve all the planning issues.

Isn't it strange how we all want the latest flat screen 50 inch HD tv yet we all seem to want to live in old mock Georgian or mock Victorian houses! Why is that?

Maybe I'm missing the artistry of the original building, but it just looks dog ugly to me - plastic Georgian would be better imo

And having lived in a Georgian house, I'd prefer the mock to the actuality - fewer feckin' draughts and easier to heat when you don't have an entire retinue of servants to make up fires in each room!

Having said that, I'm happy in my completely boring standard apartment with no TV.

kenny1979

I recently applied for change of use on a property, DCC requested 'further information', they then waited 4 weeks and requested 'clarification of further information', my question is, do they now have another 4 weeks to make a decision?

sydthebeat

kenny1979 wrote: »

I recently applied for change of use on a property, DCC requested 'further information', they then waited 4 weeks and requested 'clarification of further information', my question is, do they now have another 4 weeks to make a decision?

yes...
when they recieve the clarification they have a further 4 weeks to decide... or ask for more clarification...

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

yes...
when they recieve the clarification they have a further 4 weeks to decide... or ask for more clarification...

Agreed.

rodred

Hi,

i just got word last night that our planning will not be going through because the corner of our plan is built over a sewer line (even though it continues on under the 2 houses beside our proposed house). our architect was told that this should have been put as a condition on the outline planning that was granted on the site when we bought it.
we are now in a situation that we have to resubmit the whole thing again, but if we have to stay away from the sewer line underneath by 3meters aswell as the 4m meter set back we will prob not be able to fit a 3bed house on it.
can anyone give me some advice on where we stand, as we would not have bought the site if were only able to fit such a small house on it.
all and any info is much appreciated.

Thanks
Robet:mad::(

Poor Uncle Tom

I think you need to go back to your solicitor with these issues, as there appears to be some undisclosed information here, this is a legal problem, imo.

RKQ

Can the sewer be moved around your proposed house, as is common in the UK?

Can you give more details of the Outline Permission?
If the Council granted Outline Permission then thats legal and valid. If the Council "forgot" some condition then tough - their mistake - its not relevent and should not cause you a problem now.
IMO if you have Outline Permission, then you have Outline Permission!

rodred

hi,

thanks for the comments back so soon.

there is outline permission for 1350spft 4 bed house, with condition of
4meter set back from road. the site is a side garden, so is funny shape, 7.5 meters at front to 12.5m at the back and 22m long. 1200sqft was playing it safe so that we had best chance to get it. with the 4m set back prob couldnt get a whole lot more on it.

it is not a manhole it is just the line of the sewer pipes that run throughout the housing estate so dont see why it would need to be moved. i hope i am being clear in what im trying to say. sorry if im not.

thanks again
Rob

sydthebeat

rodred wrote: »

hi,

thanks for the comments back so soon.

there is outline permission for 1350spft 4 bed house, with condition of
4meter set back from road. the site is a side garden, so is funny shape, 7.5 meters at front to 12.5m at the back and 22m long. 1200sqft was playing it safe so that we had best chance to get it. with the 4m set back prob couldnt get a whole lot more on it.

it is not a manhole it is just the line of the sewer pipes that run throughout the housing estate so dont see why it would need to be moved. i hope i am being clear in what im trying to say. sorry if im not.

thanks again
Rob

OUTLINE PERMISSION is permission in principle... why is the specification of the house so detailed??? its confusing.

generally you can construct over these pipes... with the propser construction spec, bridging, etc

If the council are now refusing an application for 'permission consequent' due to a factor they overlooked in the original application, then they are being very very unfair... but not improper! It would be improper to grant permission when they knwo well that a significant issue exists... but, as they made the mistake, they should work with you and your agent to solve the problem as best they can... and not simply refusing the application.

i would take this to the Bord....

RKQ

The Outline permission is a legal document. It sets out a number of things like house position or approx position, site entrance, sewerage facilities, surface water, site levels etc so that the house design is all that is left to be considered on the subsequent to grant of outline application (Approval application).

Some Councils allow you to build over the sewer, provided there are adequate access points on both sides of the structure for rodding ie AJ or manhole to allow pipe blockage to be cleared.

In the UK they step the sewer pipe around the new building and backfill the old trench. A good example was shown on "The Homes Show" - Channel 4 last night - repeat next monday on More 4.

Fact - It was a valid application and the Council granted it.
They now seem to claim that the ommitted a condition - this has no legal standing now. A good Solicitor will teel you that. An appeal to An Bord Pleanala would have to judge your latest application only - the outline is legal and can not now be changed.

Dublin Councils mistake regarding Speed Limits has caused alot of traffic offences to be struck off. We are all human, we all make mistakes but the law is clear - a legal permission can not be changed just because a mistake may have been made!

Ensure you do not let the Outline Permission run out...
Discuss the sewer, on site with the Council Engineer, I'm sure a compromise can be reached.

rodred

sydthebeat wrote: »

OUTLINE PERMISSION is permission in principle... why is the specification of the house so detailed??? its confusing.

we bought the site with outline permission already on it with the conditions of 4m set back.
our agent was advised by the council to submit a new full planning application so that we could have a pinch point over the 4m set back and not be automatically breaking one of the conditions of the outline pemission. so our application was not in submitted 'permission consequent'. but we stuck closley to all the conditions of the outline anyway. if that makes sense

sydthebeat

rodred wrote: »

we bought the site with outline permission already on it with the conditions of 4m set back.
our agent was advised by the council to submit a new full planning application so that we could have a pinch point over the 4m set back and not be automatically breaking one of the conditions of the outline pemission. so our application was not in submitted 'permission consequent'. but we stuck closley to all the conditions of the outline anyway. if that makes sense

ah, that clears it up...

when you applied for full permission.. the conditions of the outlined have no legal standing... its basically a whole complete new application

what you should do is apply for 'permission consequent on the grant of outline' and keep everything the same as the outline. Doing this should cause no problems. Forget about the set back issue!!!

rodred

i just checked the online application service, and it says

Council Decision: WITHDRAW THE APPLICATION
Council Decision Date: 18-Nov-2008 There are no prescription details for this application
what does that mean?

cheers

rodred

if we ignor the set back condition, would that not be a grounds for
refusal?

thanks

sydthebeat

rodred wrote: »

if we ignor the set back condition, would that not be a grounds for
refusal?

thanks

no what i meant was ignore the change in the set back you propsed, as different from the condition.

If the conditions states "set back building line 4.0 m from..." then do this exactly...

basically.. .comply with the conditions of the outline and everything sould be fine...

rodred

sorry, i know what u mean. the reason we wanted to go over the line
was that the front of the house would have been very narrow. but not so narrow
that you couldnt live with it.

cheers

RKQ

That was quick!
I agree with Syd - a new full application is the problem!
Apply immediately for permission consequent on the grant of outline, as your full application has been withdraw by you or your agent.

Stick to the outline conditions like glue! It might not be any harm to discuss the sewer with the Council Engineer, prior to submitting the new application.

trunko

Hi all,
Am new to this board but having been reading it for a while and I must say it’s a great source of information.
We are at the planning stages and hope to get a start next Spring.

Anyhow I hope this is the right thread for my question!
Basically my question is more of a general one regarding how to approach a situation with a planner.

We initially applied for PP at the start of the year after a couple of meeting with the head planner we made some amendments to our initial plans and felt confident enough with everything.
After submitting the plans we were then asked for a list of changes to our plans as well as some other general documentation changes (which were fine).

Without getting into a load of specifics about the application here is roughly where my problems lie.

The planner really went to town requesting changes on the plan. Now I for one, (whilst not liking this) understand this process and the reasoning behind it.
The thing was we felt a lot of the request changes were extreme and without reasoning. A lot of them were requested in relation to the ‘sensitive rural landscape’ issue.
Once again I understand this, but found it unusual as there are several recently built houses near us which are far far more extreme in their design.
In fact our plan was relatively straightforward with no real outstanding features except for a side conservatory. There is a house down the road which is about 5 m from a thatched cottage and 5m from roadside which is a very unusual layout (it has a balcony, lots of different gables etc) and quite frankly an eyesore. Yet ours is about 30m from road and sairly straightforward.. It just seems like double standards.

Also the planner made several false observations on our plans, which led me to believe it was not being read properly.
There were incorrect statements made about shape of elements and measurements etc.
There was also statements thrown in about some of the internal spaces like ‘superfluous use of space’ (we have a double height front hall and one double height room)..I did not think this was any of the planners concern.

It said on the initial application response ‘please discuss with planner’ but when we called he/she refused to meet us saying we should discuss on the phone!
I just don’t understand how we can discuss a plan which is a visual thing.. over a telephone.
This person was extremely unresponsive and frankly rude at times.

We reluctantly did the changes and twice have submitted, and each time 2 more changes have been added.

Like I said I have no problem making these small changes as ultimately we just want to build our house. But its got to a stage with all these changes that we are looking at it and it is so far removed from what we started with, we are not sure if we even like it now. Also some of the changes have just moulded parts of the house into areas that are a bit illogical.

It is so frustrating..we don’t know what to do…
We have not had any heated arguments with this planner and are afraid to in case it ends up with our plans being further changed.
Our architect has spoke with the planner once and said he/she was extremely rude and cutting, for no reason whatsoever, He was simply trying to have a 2 way discussion and sort some stuff out.


Does anyone know is there anyone we can speak to about this.
We don’t want to make a complaint as such or case a fuss. We simply want a 2-way discussion about these plans so we can get them through and get it sorted. We are sick of waiting for a couple of months each time only to be thrown by some further strange requests.
Are we entitled to a meeting? Can we speak to the head planner we initially spoke to.

This is such a big deal to us, it is where we are going to invest all our savings and spend the rest of our life. It is making us so frustrated, angry and sad that this person seems to have so much power, yet a lot of the decisions being made are very strange and we are powerless to do anything about it.

If anyone could offer some advice it would be much appreciated.

muffler

First of all a couple of bits of advice re posting here. You need to leave the rants out of your posts and you need to be more concise. A long winded post isn't going to attract as many responses especially as there is nothing new or unique in it.

Now you appear to have a problem with the local planner. Your architect should be helping out more in relation to the design issues and meeting that planner either with you or on your behalf. You are paying him for this after all.

If you feel that the local planner isn't giving your application the proper appraisal that it deserves then you should indeed look for a meeting with the senior planner to discuss this problem. You should do this in consultation with your own architect who would need to show proof of alleged wrong doings by the local planner.

In a nutshell, talk to your architect in depth about this.

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

First of all a couple of bits of advice re posting here. You need to leave the rants out of your posts and you need to be more concise. A long winded post isn't going to attract as many responses especially as there is nothing new or unique in it.

Now you appear to have a problem with the local planner. Your architect should be helping out more in relation to the design issues and meeting that planner either with you or on your behalf. You are paying him for this after all.

If you feel that the local planner isn't giving your application the proper appraisal that it deserves then you should indeed look for a meeting with the senior planner to discuss this problem. You should do this in consultation with your own architect who would need to show proof of alleged wrong doings by the local planner.

In a nutshell, talk to your architect in depth about this.

i completely agree....

he is supposed to be your agent.. im sure youre paying him as such.. .so let him act as one...

if the problems are design related its his specific area to deal with the issues... if he doesnt like dealing with the planner tell him to grow a backbone or engage someone who will...

like any administrative system you need to obey the rules at the time.. .

theres absolutely no point whatsoever in referring to existing dwellings in the area... the council will simply take the view that "just because mistakes were made in the past, doesnt mean we will make them again!

the planner is entitled to refer to "superfluous use of space" if he/she feels the dwelling is too large / bulky / massive for the location......

a few questions..

what is the size of the house?
what is the site area?

Poor Uncle Tom

muffler wrote: »

In a nutshell, talk to your architect in depth about this.

Agreed.

In general it is much easier for your architect to get a meeting with the planner, senior planner or director of services then it would be for you.

If you have a specific grievence with the planner, then make a complaint to the managers office through a councillor, that is what they are there for, one of the reasons anyway.

RKQ

I agree with Muffler and Poor Uncle Tom.

Uncle Tom may have hit the nail on the head!
Why not set up a meeting with the Planner, the Architect, You and your Councillor - rude abrupt behaviour will not be tolerated by the Councillor.

The Councillor's presence will ensure a professional, pleassant, productive meeting. The Councillor may also be able to find out the exact problem with the application by directly questioning the Planner, (I'm assuming your Architect is afraid to ruffle the Planners feathers!)

burly

Hi everyone,

There is a plot of land adjacent to our family home, which my parents are thinking of selling (i know, bad time but nonetheless), or maybe one of the children will build on it i years to come. But say for arguments sake, they were going to put it on the market next year, what is more desirable to a prospective buyer? OPP or FPP? What conditions would be attached if OPP was granted to say one of the siblings? And who should make the application, my parents, or one of us siblings, the local needs shouldn't be a problem, as we are living on the area for 25+ years. We had a pre-planning meeting a few months ago, which was positive. The reason for selling would be to generate cash to renovate the family home.
Appreciate any help.

sydthebeat

burly wrote: »

Hi everyone,

There is a plot of land adjacent to our family home, which my parents are thinking of selling (i know, bad time but nonetheless), or maybe one of the children will build on it i years to come. But say for arguments sake, they were going to put it on the market next year, what is more desirable to a prospective buyer? OPP or FPP? What conditions would be attached if OPP was granted to say one of the siblings? And who should make the application, my parents, or one of us siblings, the local needs shouldn't be a problem, as we are living on the area for 25+ years. We had a pre-planning meeting a few months ago, which was positive. The reason for selling would be to generate cash to renovate the family home.
Appreciate any help.

local need would still apply to any prospctiv purchaser, so they would also need to conform to the requirements to meet local need...

OPP doesnt really apply in this case as the applicant has to meet local need, therefore a sale with OPP will not be granted permission.

if you want to sell... the let any prospective purchaser be the applicant on a Full PP application.... but if they dont meet local need they will be wasting theirs and your time...

jimboddb

burly wrote: »

Hi everyone,

There is a plot of land adjacent to our family home, which my parents are thinking of selling (i know, bad time but nonetheless), or maybe one of the children will build on it i years to come. But say for arguments sake, they were going to put it on the market next year, what is more desirable to a prospective buyer? OPP or FPP? What conditions would be attached if OPP was granted to say one of the siblings? And who should make the application, my parents, or one of us siblings, the local needs shouldn't be a problem, as we are living on the area for 25+ years. We had a pre-planning meeting a few months ago, which was positive. The reason for selling would be to generate cash to renovate the family home.
Appreciate any help.

Gonna need more info on the site itself, how is it zoned in the development plan. If there are restrictions in your area you may not be able to infact sell the site with benefit of planning permission,outline or full.

burly

jimboddb wrote: »

Gonna need more info on the site itself, how is it zoned in the development plan. If there are restrictions in your area you may not be able to infact sell the site with benefit of planning permission,outline or full.

Thanks for the reply guys. The land is zoned A1 on the Meath Development Plan, which means "to protect and enhance the amenity of developed residential communities".

Im thinking of asking a local trusted valuer (can you trust valuers?!!) what would be more appealing to a buyer, OPP or FPP, or whether we would be better off selling the land with no PP. Access to a public sewer is easy, and plenty of road frontage.