Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

archtech

Graaaaa wrote: »

We're proposing to renovate and extend a mid-terrace in Conemara, about 200 years old. A septic tank was put in the back garden in the 70's and a wc fitted. Before that there was apparently an outhouse.

First call to planners to request a consultation - given the comment that EPA testing may be required and a new septic tank required to SR6.

The extension should make the house 3-bed while it is currently 2-bed.
The neighbour (4-bed) is also plumbed into the same septic tank, making a total load of 7 beds by the time the extension is done. Neighbour would also have originally been 2-bed at the time of tank 'design'.

I've never come across the planning authority taking on the existing sewerage system for a domestic extension. Is this a new trend? If the beds were kept to two as existing then do they still have grounds to regulate this?

I wouldn't mind, I prefer to do things by the book, particularly on pollution, but the local sewerage scheme has been 'on the agenda' with said authority for years, funds ear-marked, put-aside etc. but the official finger has not been taken out.

And to refer to a redundant standard for sewerage treatment has a crude irony as to their knowledge on the subject.

Planning authorities regularly require assessment of existing spetic tanks where planning applications for extensions are applied for in my experience.. If you can demonstrate that the existing septic tank is adequate and complies, then it may not be necessary to put a new one in.

As for SR 6, its not withdrawn yet, and therefore not a "redundant standard". Admittedly there are better guidance documents available.

Graaaaa

I've been asking around and it seems this is the way it's gone, and they're often only accepting site characterisation done by Fás Fetac qualified registered persons charging ridiculous money.

Another question which may be pushing the boundaries:

SR6 and the EPA doc both give crude figures or formulas for the size of the tank. However if a greywater system was proposed to reduce the liquid volume, then could the flowrates in BS 8301 (building drainage) be used to give more rational and hopefully lower hydraulic loads for wastewater and hopefully demonstrate that the existing tank size is adequate?
Would adding a greywater treatment and recycling system be more or less cost effective than reconstructing the existing septic tank? Also factor in the fact that the neighbour is running into it, just to complicate things.

Poor Uncle Tom

Ballymoreman wrote: »

THE SUPREME Court has cleared the way for a development of houses, shops, a creche and a medical centre at Ballymore Eustace, Co Kildare.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0723/1224251144464.html

It seems that this has happened because Kildare County Council made a mistake and did not pose any questions regarding the planning until one day after the allowed time period.

Section 34 7 (f) of the planning act 2000 states
(f) Where a planning authority fails to make a decision within the period specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c), (d) or (e), a decision by the planning authority to grant the permission shall be regarded as having been given on the last day of that period.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0030/sec0034.html

Could anyone tell me what is the position for people who had originally objected to the permission?

Also is it now possible to appeal the decision to an Bord Pleanala ?

This is a legal issue but it is also a planning issue, so here goes....

The High Court adjourned the issue of what order should be made in the case.

So until that is sorted nothing is final....either the unconditional notification of decision to grant planning permission was valid the day after the 8 week period of the planning application expired, in which case the five year life span of the planning permission has expired and a new planning application is required, or the date of notification of decision to grant unconditional planning permission will begin on the date of the High Court Judgement giving any objector 28 days to appeal the decision to An Bord Pleanala.

So until the order is made in the case no one knows what side the coin fell on, imo.

curlylocks

Graaaaa wrote: »

We're proposing to renovate and extend a mid-terrace in Conemara, about 200 years old. A septic tank was put in the back garden in the 70's and a wc fitted. Before that there was apparently an outhouse.

First call to planners to request a consultation - given the comment that EPA testing may be required and a new septic tank required to SR6.

The extension should make the house 3-bed while it is currently 2-bed.
The neighbour (4-bed) is also plumbed into the same septic tank, making a total load of 7 beds by the time the extension is done. Neighbour would also have originally been 2-bed at the time of tank 'design'.

I've never come across the planning authority taking on the existing sewerage system for a domestic extension. Is this a new trend? If the beds were kept to two as existing then do they still have grounds to regulate this?

I wouldn't mind, I prefer to do things by the book, particularly on pollution, but the local sewerage scheme has been 'on the agenda' with said authority for years, funds ear-marked, put-aside etc. but the official finger has not been taken out.

And to refer to a redundant standard for sewerage treatment has a crude irony as to their knowledge on the subject.

Hi there,
have a bit of experience in planning in county Galway and AFAIK all new treatment systems must be in accordance with the EPA requirements, not SR6. So you might want to double check that requirement. There is a new development plan which outlines development control standards (its available online on their website), it does say about the EPA requirements, but only for new houses, not sure if its different for extensions and renovations.

archtech

Graaaaa wrote: »

I've been asking around and it seems this is the way it's gone, and they're often only accepting site characterisation done by Fás Fetac qualified registered persons charging ridiculous money.

Another question which may be pushing the boundaries:

SR6 and the EPA doc both give crude figures or formulas for the size of the tank. However if a greywater system was proposed to reduce the liquid volume, then could the flowrates in BS 8301 (building drainage) be used to give more rational and hopefully lower hydraulic loads for wastewater and hopefully demonstrate that the existing tank size is adequate?
Would adding a greywater treatment and recycling system be more or less cost effective than reconstructing the existing septic tank? Also factor in the fact that the neighbour is running into it, just to complicate things.

A grey water recycling system is used to reduce the mains water consumption. The rainwater and run off from paths yards etc should not be going into your septic tank anyway

Graaaaa

archtech wrote: »

A grey water recycling system is used to reduce the mains water consumption. The rainwater and run off from paths yards etc should not be going into your septic tank anyway

To clarify - by greywater I mean the waste from shower, bath, basin (but not washing machine or kitchen sink - too much fats etc. in the mix) which would be filtered and pumped to cisterns for flushing. This would reduce the flow of light liquid to the septic tank and thus reduce the required tank capacity per person. There are many commercial systems out there to filter and treat greywater so it can be used this way. The real zero-impact green guys use it to water their fruit and vegetables.

Roof and surface runoff do not enter the septic tank, this is only fun to do if you don't live there

zelemon

I live in the west of ireland in rural lands & I want to place a shomera style unit on my site beside my home for use as a private office (roughly about 50sq/m). As I am based in the country side I am wondering what are the main planning issues asscoaited with a private commerical unit on residential lands in the countryside? I should be ok for parking & its an artists studi so visitors would be very limited. any advice would be much appreciated.

archtech

Graaaaa wrote: »

To clarify - by greywater I mean the waste from shower, bath, basin (but not washing machine or kitchen sink - too much fats etc. in the mix) which would be filtered and pumped to cisterns for flushing. This would reduce the flow of light liquid to the septic tank and thus reduce the required tank capacity per person. There are many commercial systems out there to filter and treat greywater so it can be used this way. The real zero-impact green guys use it to water their fruit and vegetables.

Roof and surface runoff do not enter the septic tank, this is only fun to do if you don't live there

Talk to the sanitary services section of the local authority and see if they would accept the idea. Depending on how up to speed with "green" methodology they may run with it. By the time you have factored in the maintenance and running of the filter and pump, installation of a storage tank, it may be cheaper to replace the septic tank.

Also be sure have have the answers to questions like "what happens if the grey water storage tank becomes full or the pump fails and where does the excess grey water go?"

Pipsie Pie

Hi all,
Just wondering if anybody has any experience in apply and being granted Outline planning in county Meath?
Basically my boyfriend and i have been given land by my Dad to build a house and stables on. Not wanting to risk losing all our savings on getting an architect to draw up detailed plans, site elevation etc. someone suggested we should apply for outline pp, to see if the council refuse in principle to a house being built there. But from what I've heard outline pp is not too popular with Meath cc.
We both fall into the local needs category.
Thanks!

smashey

If you both fall in the local needs category then go for the outline permission. It's in the regulations for a reason.

joehandyman

We are in the process of obtaining planning permission to construct a two story house. A neighbour has submitted an objection on the basis that our proposed development will infringe on their privacy.

Following our discussions with the County Council, they are requesting that we plant trees at a height of approx. 3 metres high as a possible solution. Their other alternatives are totally unacceptable in our view.

Just checking if anyone has encountered a similar problem with a county council and if so, would they recommend an alternative solution. Given the cost involved in planting trees of that height, we would appreciate your help with the following:

• What type of tree would you recommend to plant at a height of 2-3 metres that would satisfy the privacy requirement and of course, trees that are nice to look at;
• Where is the best place to purchase these trees.

Harlow

I've done a quick look but haven't found a post that quite answers this. Apologies if it is out there!

I'm considering the option of buying (mortgage dependant, from a very compassionate bank!!) a 3-bed house. The estate agent clearly implied that the house, & many more in the same area are the same, would likely have no planning permission as it's about 50yrs old. Many of those built were for holiday homes - 50s/60s/70s etc style - as its beside the sea, but this house is more a house than chalet-type (just about!) and is lived in by current owners.

Do I understand that 7yrs+ should deem the property 'retention-safe', let alone an occupied one standing 50yrs? Is it the sellers obligation to get a retention order before selling? The price is nice & low as it stands but I'd imagine it would jump significantly if the sellers went ahead with a retention application themselves, due to house location.

Penn

Harlow wrote: »

I've done a quick look but haven't found a post that quite answers this. Apologies if it is out there!

I'm considering the option of buying (mortgage dependant, from a very compassionate bank!!) a 3-bed house. The estate agent clearly implied that the house, & many more in the same area are the same, would likely have no planning permission as it's about 50yrs old. Many of those built were for holiday homes - 50s/60s/70s etc style - as its beside the sea, but this house is more a house than chalet-type (just about!) and is lived in by current owners.

Do I understand that 7yrs+ should deem the property 'retention-safe', let alone an occupied one standing 50yrs? Is it the sellers obligation to get a retention order before selling? The price is nice & low as it stands but I'd imagine it would jump significantly if the sellers went ahead with a retention application themselves, due to house location.

As it is over 7 years old, you do not need to apply for retention. The only way you would have to apply for retention is if you add an extension or drastically change the house. But if you were to add an extension, you should apply for planning permission for both, as the extension would not be an exempted development.

FergusD

Hi Pipsie,

We're just through the planning process in Westmeath, same deal as yourself, building on family land and we went straight for full p.p. For what it's worth at the pre-planning meeting, the architect got them to confirm local need, give some guidance on the site, etc. which she minuted and submitted with the final application.

It might be worth your while picking an architect with a view to having a very broad outline of what you're looking to do - i.e. two storey house on this site with stables around it or whatever, not getting to a detailed plans stage - so not paying the architect that much, then have the pre-planning meeting and see what sort of feedback you get?

Fergus.

Manta400r

Hi guys,


i was recently approached to do drawings for my local club to get a bar licence for the hall, there will be no construction other than the construction of a cold storage room for kegs etc

the hall is currently used as a sports and recreational hall,

im wondering do i have to submit a planning application first to get a change of use before the license application is submitted or should i just do the drawings for the judge for the license?

I have never done this type of work and any info would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

Harlow

Cheers PaddyIrishman85 for quick reply. Thats pretty good news on the retention thing!

Penn

No problem. You'll only need retention or anything if you built an extension, but if its been there for about 60 years, I'd be incredibly surprised if they didn't grant it. I wouldn't see it being an issue either way

The Raven.

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

This is a legal issue but it is also a planning issue, so here goes....

The High Court adjourned the issue of what order should be made in the case.

So until that is sorted nothing is final....either the unconditional notification of decision to grant planning permission was valid the day after the 8 week period of the planning application expired, in which case the five year life span of the planning permission has expired and a new planning application is required, or the date of notification of decision to grant unconditional planning permission will begin on the date of the High Court Judgement giving any objector 28 days to appeal the decision to An Bord Pleanala.

So until the order is made in the case no one knows what side the coin fell on, imo.

The High Court ruled against the developers and it was subsequently overturned by the Supreme Court, thus allowing the development to go ahead, as Ballymoreman pointed out.

Bad news for Ballymore Eustace objectors!! They appealed to An Bord Pleanala but the Bord have declared the Appeal 'Invalid- late'.

This was appealed by An Taisce and Ballymore Eustace Trout and Salmon Anglers Association. There may be more, but they are not on line.

What kind of justice is this when KCC were late in requesting Further Information in the first place, and objectors weren't given any opportunity to appeal? This is an absolute disgrace!!

Development Description:
'for a seven year planning permission for a phased development of 20 units per annum at Ballymore Eustace West/Broadleas Commons.The development will consist of site development works, roads/site accesses at Kilcullen Road R413 & Hollywood etc.'

These piecemeal developments are now becoming a way for developers to get planning permission for their huge developments. It is happening with other developments also.

The Raven.

The Supreme Court judgement date was 22nd day of July, 2009.

An Bord Pleanala Appeal date was 13th August 2009.

22 days from date of Supreme Court decision = 3 weeks and 1 day

The time allowed by KCC within which to appeal to Bord Pleanala is 4 weeks from the date of their decision.

An Bord Pleanala states that the Appeal is Invalid - Late, obviously not taking into account that the objectors couldn't appeal while this case was going through the courts, until the final outcome was known. Consequently, the objectors in this case have been given no opportunity to appeal. There is something very wrong in this case.

Penn

I was wondering about installing 2 new windows at the side of a house at ground floor level, which are just over 1m from the boundary. I know when building an extension, ground floor windows have to be more than 1m from the boundary, I was wondering if the same applies for just forming new opes in the existing dwelling.

sydthebeat

Technically, this is not 'exempted' permission simply because its not specifically referred to in the 'exempted development' regulations.

However, you always have the opportunity to apply for a section 5 determination from the council...
http://www.dlrcoco.ie/planning/Forms/English/Section_5.pdf

thecribber

I Hope I am posting in the correct place.
I built a fairly large garage to the side and rear of my house 8 years ago. The garage is single story and about 32m by 12m. I have neighbours on each side and also to my rear. I spoke to them before I built 8 years ago and have had no objections from them. The site is surrounded by large trees and therefore the Garage is not easily visable from outside the site. What do I need to do to make things 100% legal ? and how much will this cost ?

muffler

thecribber wrote: »

I Hope I am posting in the correct place.
I built a fairly large garage to the side and rear of my house 8 years ago. The garage is single story and about 32m by 12m. I have neighbours on each side and also to my rear. I spoke to them before I built 8 years ago and have had no objections from them. The site is surrounded by large trees and therefore the Garage is not easily visable from outside the site. What do I need to do to make things 100% legal ? and how much will this cost ?

First of all you will need to apply for retention planning permission. Get a local architectural technician to prepare the drawings and submit the application. He will know whats required.

Im not sure if a garage of that size will be deemed to be domestic in use. You will have a bit of a fight on your hands possibly to convince the planners that it is.

If you get away with domestic use the planning fee will be based on the floor which is €2.50 per sq. metre. So you have 384 m2 x €2.50 = €960
If it is commercial it will incur a fee of €10.80/m2 = €4147.20

On top of that you will need to pay the technician.

Cuauhtemoc

I Hope I am posting in the correct place.
I built a fairly large garage to the side and rear of my house 8 years ago. The garage is single story and about 32m by 12m. I have neighbours on each side and also to my rear. I spoke to them before I built 8 years ago and have had no objections from them. The site is surrounded by large trees and therefore the Garage is not easily visable from outside the site. What do I need to do to make things 100% legal ? and how much will this cost ?

I thought after 7 years a structure was exempt from planning enforcement. Or something along those lines. While not necessarily a legal structure the council couldn't do anything about it????

C.

Edit: The OP wants to make it 100% legal so would need retention. Though unless they had further planning apps in mind they could probably leave it no??

Poor Uncle Tom

The Raven. wrote: »

The Supreme Court judgement date was 22nd day of July, 2009.

An Bord Pleanala Appeal date was 13th August 2009.

22 days from date of Supreme Court decision = 3 weeks and 1 day

The time allowed by KCC within which to appeal to Bord Pleanala is 4 weeks from the date of their decision.

An Bord Pleanala states that the Appeal is Invalid - Late, obviously not taking into account that the objectors couldn't appeal while this case was going through the courts, until the final outcome was known. Consequently, the objectors in this case have been given no opportunity to appeal. There is something very wrong in this case.

If I am reading the above correctly there was actually a minimum of 3 days in which an appeal could have been lodged, if this is correct then there was an opportunity to appeal.

Poor Uncle Tom

Cuauhtemoc wrote: »

I thought after 7 years a structure was exempt from planning enforcement. Or something along those lines. While not necessarily a legal structure the council couldn't do anything about it????

C.

Edit: The OP wants to make it 100% legal so would need retention. Though unless they had further planning apps in mind they could probably leave it no??

Not having planning permission for a structure which needs it classes that structure as unauthorised.

If an unauthorised structure is in place for more then 7 years then the LA can not prosecute you for having an unauthorised development, but it will still remain an unauthorised development no amount of time will change that.

Getting retention planning permission for an unauthorised structure changes its designation from being unauthorised to having planning permission.

This may be important if a property containing an unauthorised development goes up for sale, potential buyers and lending institutions may not want to deal with any such properties, this is why it is important to regulate matters before a sale.

The Raven.

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

If I am reading the above correctly there was actually a minimum of 3 days in which an appeal could have been lodged, if this is correct then there was an opportunity to appeal.

I don't understand what you mean by '3 days'. What 3 days?

The appeal was lodged within 4 weeks from the date of the final decision of the Supreme Court.

The whole situation was a fiasco because the KCC did not issue their request for Further Information before the deadline (one day late). The developer did not respond to the FI request, but seized the opportunity of using the delay to assume that the permission was automatically granted, according to the rules of the game.

However, as no FI was submitted within the permitted time frame, KCC declared the Planning Application 'withdrawn', as is usual.

At what point could the objectors submit an appeal? This has to be done within 4 weeks from the date of a council decision. In this case there was no actual decision on the part of KCC, as they disputed the assumption of the developer that permission was automatically granted. It then went to the High Court which ruled in favour of KCC. This was subsequently overturned by the Supreme Court.

Finally, the objectors appealed and An Board Pleanala declared the appeal 'Invalid - late'. Consequently, the objectors were denied their right of Appeal.

Poor Uncle Tom

I see, thank you for clarifying that, I had asumed something different.

rodred

Hi,

i have included a converted attic space in my new build, it can not be classed as habitable space due to the height, i was not allowed go above existing ridge height. there is a few velux and 2 dormers. do i need to comply with regs even though this can never be classed as anything other than storage??

cheers

Mellor

Depends, what are you planning on using it for?
It its storage, why did you bother with dormers?
how will the attic be accessed?