Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

rodred

Depends, what are you planning on using it for?
It its storage, why did you bother with dormers?
how will the attic be accessed?

there will be no partitions or walls in the room just an open space, the dormers were just to maximise the space available in the attic, the roof will be to low for it to be liveable in. it will be accessed via stairs..
cheers
for getting back

Mellor

Well, if the stairs are only for access periodicly, and not an excape route (as theres no bed rooms up there). then they wouldn't have to fully comply with part K, but they would have to be reasonable, its not a case of build any stairs you want.
Other applicable regs are fire regs, part B. compliance here usually means door closers, protected escape etc, fire rated doors. And once again, if its just for storage, then it wouldn't have to comply with these measures.

pandos

I have just been turned down for the third time for planning for a small house on a site which I own in a fantastic location.

I appealed the first rejection and I believe that it was this appeal and my attempts to have a pre planning consultation on the second application that has earned me a black mark in the planners office.

This third rejection is for a design that, is smaller and different in everyway from the first submission, it is tailored specifically to match the concerns of the Inspectors report, and the outcomes of 2 pre planning meetings. Yet the planners report describes it as a revision on the first submitted design and simply hangs his reasons on the boards' inspectors reasoning, which itself was infected by use of excluded material.

In the first appeal the inspector included in her report a " comment on appeal" ( which contained elements which were factually incorrect and which I believe mislead the board, importantly the inspector seemed to take umbridge at what she thought was an attempt by me to mislead her) even though the comment had been received by the board outside the four week period and had been returned to the city planners.

These disputed facts were the only outstanding issue prior to this last application and since they are not referred to at all in the rejection I am taking this as a tacit acceptance that my position was correct from the outset.

I know now that I should have sought JR of that decision.

Question.

Should I make an appeal to ABP including all of the previous issues with a view to having plenty of food for thought for a JR,

Or should I make a short clear concise appeal.
I have been advised to take several courses of action and some of these do not include criminal acts.

I do not think I can design a fourth house to fit on the site to make a fourth application,

Question. can I resubmit the first design, even though it was rejected in the past.

sydthebeat

pandos wrote: »

I have just been turned down for the third time for planning for a small house on a site which I own in a fantastic location.

I appealed the first rejection and I believe that it was this appeal and my attempts to have a pre planning consultation on the second application that has earned me a black mark in the planners office.

This third rejection is for a design that, is smaller and different in everyway from the first submission, it is tailored specifically to match the concerns of the Inspectors report, and the outcomes of 2 pre planning meetings. Yet the planners report describes it as a revision on the first submitted design and simply hangs his reasons on the boards' inspectors reasoning, which itself was infected by use of excluded material.

In the first appeal the inspector included in her report a " comment on appeal" ( which contained elements which were factually incorrect and which I believe mislead the board, importantly the inspector seemed to take umbridge at what she thought was an attempt by me to mislead her) even though the comment had been received by the board outside the four week period and had been returned to the city planners.

These disputed facts were the only outstanding issue prior to this last application and since they are not referred to at all in the rejection I am taking this as a tacit acceptance that my position was correct from the outset.

I know now that I should have sought JR of that decision.

Question.

Should I make an appeal to ABP including all of the previous issues with a view to having plenty of food for thought for a JR,

Or should I make a short clear concise appeal.
I have been advised to take several courses of action and some of these do not include criminal acts.

I do not think I can design a fourth house to fit on the site to make a fourth application,

Question. can I resubmit the first design, even though it was rejected in the past.

you need to step back from this, and seek clarity.....

from everything you've posted above its clear to me that you are too personally involved in what is an impersonal process. Talking about judicial reviews, criminal acts, black marks etc etc shows that you cannot see the wood for the trees, and more significantly, that you do not fully understand the planning process. Pre planning consultations will not be granted if the purpose is to query a previous decision. They will only be granted to those seeking advise on a new proposal.

but anyway, your two questions:

1. you can only seek a judicial review once the appeal is finished, and the high court have grated leave to appeal if they think some legal process has not been adhered to. You cannot seek a judicial review because you are unhappy with the result of an appeal.

2. as your original application was refused, theres no reason at all to suggest that it would succeed in the future.

pandos

sydthebeat wrote: »

you need to step back from this, and seek clarity.....

from everything you've posted above its clear to me that you are too personally involved in what is an impersonal process. Talking about judicial reviews, criminal acts, black marks etc etc shows that you cannot see the wood for the trees, and more significantly, that you do not fully understand the planning process. Pre planning consultations will not be granted if the purpose is to query a previous decision. They will only be granted to those seeking advise on a new proposal.

but anyway, your two questions:

1. you can only seek a judicial review once the appeal is finished, and the high court have grated leave to appeal if they think some legal process has not been adhered to. You cannot seek a judicial review because you are unhappy with the result of an appeal.

2. as your original application was refused, theres no reason at all to suggest that it would succeed in the future.

Thank you for the reply.

I agree that the thing has become personal, when your livelihood and your financial well being is involved this tends to happen.

But that does not automatically mean that I do not understand the system, or am incapable of navigating my way through the forest with a little help.

There have been no less than 4 professionals involved in these applications and all are stumpted and surprised at the treatment.

I know precisely what a Judicial Review is, the procedures and practices as well as the grounds for seeking it. My point is that the taking into account matters that were not admissible is perfect grounds for JR.( Without these matters it is likely that the decision having been remitted to the board would have been made differently ( it was a 2 to 1 ruling).

My query really is whether in anticipation of a procedural mishap in this appeal should I stack the appeal to involve the previous applications after all these are all part of the planning history and the city planners have gone out of their way to invoke the previous refusal.

I was seeking a pre planning consultation to discuss a second scheme in the hopes of avoiding an appeal and the delays involved. I was not seeking to discuss the refusal.

My original application was refused on the partially on the grounds that the site was not an inner urban site and thus the amount private open space provided was not sufficient. With this issue resolved in my favour,there may be reason to expect a different outcome.

The reference to criminal acts was tongue in cheek.

Mellor

pandos wrote: »

I agree that the thing has become personal, when your livelihood and your financial well being is involved this tends to happen.

How exactly is your livelihood or financial wellbeing involved?

I know precisely what a Judicial Review is, the procedures and practices as well as the grounds for seeking it. My point is that the taking into account matters that were not admissible is perfect grounds for JR.( Without these matters it is likely that the decision having been remitted to the board would have been made differently ( it was a 2 to 1 ruling).

Are these "inadmissible" items mentioned in the boards review? Or are you of the opinion that they influenced the decision without them actually saying it did.
And depending on he nature, they might not be inadmissible.

I was seeking a pre planning consultation to discuss a second scheme in the hopes of avoiding an appeal and the delays involved. I was not seeking to discuss the refusal.

My original application was refused on the partially on the grounds that the site was not an inner urban site and thus the amount private open space provided was not sufficient. With this issue resolved in my favour,there may be reason to expect a different outcome.

What is the land zoning?
The relevent development plan will detail the maximum site coverage, find out this value and adher to it. It varies greatly, highest max I know of is 100%, not sure of the lowest, but its a broad range

DaveCol

What view is a planning authority likely to take on a two storey house being built on a corner site in a housing estate, where:

1. The new house has a flat roof and all of the other houses in the area have a pitched roof?

2. The external walls are finished in brick when all other houses have a plastered finish?

3. The external wall is just inside the boundary at a footpath and has windows at ground and first floor?

4. The first floor window is about 3m long and overlooks houses on the opposite side of the road which were not previously overlooked, the window is in the (upstairs) living room?

muffler

DaveCol wrote: »

What view is a planning authority likely to take on a two storey house being built on a corner site in a housing estate, where:

1. The new house has a flat roof and all of the other houses in the area have a pitched roof?

2. The external walls are finished in brick when all other houses have a plastered finish?

3. The external wall is just inside the boundary at a footpath and has windows at ground and first floor?

4. The first floor window is about 3m long and overlooks houses on the opposite side of the road which were not previously overlooked, the window is in the (upstairs) living room?

I'll tell you what. If you were a first time poster here on boards I would have banned you for that as I would have viewed it as a bit of micky taking.

Anyhow get yourself some professional advice or look for another site.

DaveCol

Apologies, my query wasn't meant that way.

One of my neighbours has just applied for permission for such a house and I was just looking for info on how the council might deal with it?

muffler

DaveCol wrote: »

Apologies, my query wasn't meant that way.

One of my neighbours has just applied for permission for such a house and I was just looking for info on how the council might deal with it?

Put it like this. I would have a better chance of coming away unscathed form driving up the Shankhill Road in Belfast waving a tri-colour and shouting "up the Pope" than that guy has of getting planning permission.

Anyhow I have been known to be wrong

DaveCol

Thanks, I hadn't quite considered it in those terms

sydthebeat

DaveCol wrote: »

What view is a planning authority likely to take on a two storey house being built on a corner site in a housing estate, where:

1. The new house has a flat roof and all of the other houses in the area have a pitched roof?

2. The external walls are finished in brick when all other houses have a plastered finish?

3. The external wall is just inside the boundary at a footpath and has windows at ground and first floor?

4. The first floor window is about 3m long and overlooks houses on the opposite side of the road which were not previously overlooked, the window is in the (upstairs) living room?

it needs to be broken down into separate factors
1. house does not integrate with existing structures regarding building line, finishes and form.
2. residential development standards may not be met of building line is at footpath... where is the proposed off street car parking?
3. overlooking of adjoining properties is not acceptable.

DaveCol

Right, just called in to the local planning office to object, and I have missed the date. They say all I can do is wait for their decision.

Off street parking is through an existing side entrance.

Mellor

To be honest, if what you give is an accurate discription, then this has little chance of being grannted.
however, it may be suitable when considered from a different point of view.

All you can do is wait

Glico Man

How can I find out about the zoning for an area?

Is there a website I can use?

muffler

aaronh007 wrote: »

How can I find out about the zoning for an area?

Is there a website I can use?

The zoning will be contained in the Development Plan for the area. Most planning authorities now have this available online. Google your local authority name and you should find a home page and from there you should get a link to the development plan.

Glico Man

muffler wrote: »

The zoning will be contained in the Development Plan for the area. Most planning authorities now have this available online. Google your local authority name and you should find a home page and from there you should get a link to the development plan.

Thanks for the help. Managed to find it

ginmaccorty

Hi There,
I have two questions concerning a retail unit in a high street location
1. The building is no more than 15 years old. Purpose built for retail. There are two floors. Both are rated for retail. The unpstairs has only been used for storage in the past and is accessed via a rear service stairs. I want to put a trading stairs in the shop. I know there are fire regulations. But as long as I can get a fire cert for my plan can I go ahead without applying for planning permission. Is it exempt?
2. With reference to shop signage. I believe that Galway city council have become strict on new shop openings. They are making prospective tenants apply for planning for shop signs. This is something they overlooked in the past because they were to busy. Vision Xpress got into planning difficulty post shop-opening, I believe, and I noticed that Holland & Barrett have an application notice up for signage for the old sasha unit on shop street. They signed their lease deal a few months ago. I'm shocked that in this economic climate a council are holding up someone who wants to create jobs. I want to open a shop in Limerick and want to be open in November. I will put up an internal sign inside the window if I have to apply for planning for an outside shop-front sign. I'm half afraid to ask the planning dept in fear they will jump on the opportunity to get a few bob out of me for something they would not have bothered with last year. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Poor Uncle Tom

ginmaccorty wrote: »

Hi There,
I have two questions concerning a retail unit in a high street location
1. The building is no more than 15 years old. Purpose built for retail. There are two floors. Both are rated for retail. The unpstairs has only been used for storage in the past and is accessed via a rear service stairs. I want to put a trading stairs in the shop. I know there are fire regulations. But as long as I can get a fire cert for my plan can I go ahead without applying for planning permission. Is it exempt?

If the building is constructed in accordance with the planning permission as issued then any alterations to this require planning permission. A Local Authority may, at their discression, allow some alterations without the need of a full planning application. You need to sit down with a planner or director of services and have a chat, bring a councillor with you.

ginmaccorty wrote: »

2. With reference to shop signage. I believe that Galway city council have become strict on new shop openings. They are making prospective tenants apply for planning for shop signs. This is something they overlooked in the past because they were to busy. Vision Xpress got into planning difficulty post shop-opening, I believe, and I noticed that Holland & Barrett have an application notice up for signage for the old sasha unit on shop street. They signed their lease deal a few months ago. I'm shocked that in this economic climate a council are holding up someone who wants to create jobs. I want to open a shop in Limerick and want to be open in November. I will put up an internal sign inside the window if I have to apply for planning for an outside shop-front sign. I'm half afraid to ask the planning dept in fear they will jump on the opportunity to get a few bob out of me for something they would not have bothered with last year. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Again I think it would be wise to talk to the planners, explain your situation, that spending extras and time delays now may prevent you opening your business, etc.
Good Luck.

lynchiered

Im considering buying a Cottage on a 1 acre site in Co Cavan, it will need a septic tank or some sort of waste system, can anybody give me some info on the options i have and the planning permission proccess for them?

Kind Regards

Paul

Poor Uncle Tom

Presuming there is no mains sewer in the area and that there is no/not an adequate system in place with the cottage, you will need to get a Site Characterisation test including Watertable and Percolation Test carried out. You will need planning permission for any septic tank or treatment system to go into the site.

You need to get in contact with a good local Architectural Technician and get the advice you need.

Builderfromhell

Not sure about Co. Cavan but Councils here in the South West require a site suitability test to be done by someone from their list of qualified assesors. This test is required to confirm that some type of waste water treatment will work. It costs about €500 around here exclusive of getting someone with a digger to dig holes.

Prior to purchasing site you might be wise to get advice from someone local about the suitability of the site and maybe check if neighbours have problems with septic tanks etc.

r-i-tect

lynchiered wrote: »

Im considering buying a Cottage on a 1 acre site in Co Cavan, it will need a septic tank or some sort of waste system, can anybody give me some info on the options i have and the planning permission proccess for them?

Kind Regards

Paul

Sent you a PM, as Builderfromhell said prices are in the region of €500 plus

Bitten & Hisses

A question re the official grant of permission.

1. Applicant gets notification of decision to grant permission subject to conditions. (Some of these require info to be sent to the council within 28 days)
2. Applicant submits this info and gets an acknowledgement from the council that it has been received, but no confirmation on whether they are happy or otherwise with it.
3. The 28-day deadline passes for issue of the official grant of permission, but the applicant has heard nothing from the council and has not been given their grant of permission.

Provided that there have been no appeals to An Bord Pleanala, is it fair to say that the applicant now has their grant of permission (by default-ish), or can the council pull yet another rabbit out of the hat?

sydthebeat

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

A question re the official grant of permission.

1. Applicant gets notification of decision to grant permission subject to conditions. (Some of these require info to be sent to the council within 28 days)
2. Applicant submits this info and gets an acknowledgement from the council that it has been received, but no confirmation on whether they are happy or otherwise with it.
3. The 28-day deadline passes for issue of the official grant of permission, but the applicant has heard nothing from the council and has not been given their grant of permission.

Provided that there have been no appeals to An Bord Pleanala, is it fair to say that the applicant now has their grant of permission (by default-ish), or can the council pull yet another rabbit out of the hat?

this is slightly confusing.....

the "decision" to grant is not based on conditions....

the permission itself is subject to conditions being met.

4 weeks after the "decision to grant" you will recieve "final grant"... this is your actual legal permission.

You should simply contact you council and request they send out your final grant of permission if the 4 week period is up. Once you have that, contact them again and tell them that you are proceeding with the development, by sending in the commencement notice, as you have complied with the conditions. If they have any issue with the info you sent in, they will HAVE TO let you know whether the info is acceptable or not...

Bitten & Hisses

sydthebeat wrote: »

You should simply contact you council and request they send out your final grant of permission if the 4 week period is up. Once you have that, contact them again and tell them that you are proceeding with the development, by sending in the commencement notice, as you have complied with the conditions. If they have any issue with the info you sent in, they will HAVE TO let you know whether the info is acceptable or not...

Thanks for your reply Syd. I suppose my question is really, assuming that you have sent in your commencement notice, is there a legal time limit for them to come back and stop you on the basis that they are not happy with your reply regarding one of the conditions?

The Architect

no time limit but if they have any issue with the info submitted they will get back to you asap, as they will want to get it sorted before you start.

srdb20

Lads with regards to planning permission, if i want to build in a county im not from is that possible?

Or

If we want to build in a county my girlfriend is from, does it have to be within a certain distance to were she is living, or anywhere in the county?

Cheers

muffler

srdb20 wrote: »

Lads with regards to planning permission, if i want to build in a county im not from is that possible?

Or

If we want to build in a county my girlfriend is from, does it have to be within a certain distance to were she is living, or anywhere in the county?

Cheers

It all depends on the local development plan. If you are talking about a rural site there is a strong possibility that you will be classed as a "blow in"

if its in your g/f's county then the same thing applies but she may well have to build within a certain radius of her home place.

You could post up here which county you are thinking of and someone may be able to advise. In any event Id suggest you look up the rural housing policies (contained in either the County Development Plan or Local Area Plan) of the County Council to whom you would be making the planning application by searching through their web site or call in or ring their local planning department.

srdb20

Cheers muffler,

Was thinking around Killkenny, Tipperary, Limerick, Carlow?

Any chance of getting planning permission in any of those counties would you say?