Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

bobbygoldstar

this may sound like an obvious question but how is the rear of a house determined.
on the attached sketch is it the 'red line' or the 'blue line'.
is planning required for a single storey extension in the hatched area.
I think its the red line but kind of hoping I am wrong

Mellor

You are right, it sounds obvious, but it isn't in any way obvious. it's not defined anywhere to my knowledge and many LAs take their own view on the issue.

As for your case, in my opinion the rear of the house includes the area behind the garage (regardless of conversion). The grey area is generally the area that is both behind and to the side of the house, or when houses don't have a clear front and rear.

A section 5 is used to clarify exempt developments, but you don't need one here imo. It's the rear

muffler

bobbygoldstar wrote: »

this may sound like an obvious question but how is the rear of a house determined.
on the attached sketch is it the 'red line' or the 'blue line'.
is planning required for a single storey extension in the hatched area.
I think its the red line but kind of hoping I am wrong

Im going to both agree and disagree with Mellor on this one.

I agree that different PA's will have different opinions on it

I disagree that the the blue line and the shaded area would be considered the rear building line and I would disagree with this statement

but you don't need one here imo

if for no other reason than Mellor himself has admitted its a bit of a grey area and has indicated that various PA's would have different views on it.

If in doubt (and there is doubt here) apply for the cert as mentioned.

DOCARCH

The rear of the house is the red line for me. Anything beyond the end of the red line would need pp in my opinion - i.e. it is to the side of the house.

As above, Section 5 is the way to go. Some LAs may say the extension in the hatched area is exempt, others will not.

bobbygoldstar

Thanks for the replies,
I emailed a technician friend of mine who works for a council his response seems very plausible

'I would read the hatched area as the rear of the house at ground floor level, as the back door exits there and would be of the view that it would only become the side of the at first floor level or when it becomes visible from the street to the front of the house.'

I also emailed planning enforcement of dlrcoco where the house is located with the same query, if they get back to me with a response i will post it up.
thanks again for your help

DOCARCH

Just bear in mind the 'converted garage' bit - this was not part of the original house. This will be a factor in determining whether or not your propsoed extension is exempt. Some Councils may tell you your proposed extension is exempt and some will tell you it is not.

I'd still suggest Section 5 to be sure.

muffler

DOCARCH wrote: »

Just bear in mind the 'converted garage' bit - this was not part of the original house. This will be a factor in determining whether or not your propsoed extension is exempt. Some Councils may tell you your proposed extension is exempt and some will tell you it is not.

I'd still suggest Section 5 to be sure.

+1 on this.

I think its fairly safe to say that PA's in general will include the floor area of your converted garage as being part of the overall 40m2 max area for exempted development.

yungwan

Thanks for the replys guys. They are pretty much what i had thought. I think what people may be confusing it all with is that it may be a lot easier to get planning permission there with the exisiting dwelling, rather than if there was no house.

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It is also worth noting that if the existing house is in any way habitable you will need a seperate planning permission to demolish it.

Is this really the case Uncle Tom? I have never heard of this!!! I dont know how habitable it is tbh. But i cant imagine it would be too good! Damp would have set in big time id imagine!!

Poor Uncle Tom

If the house is habitable, ie., A habitable house includes a structure which was last used as a dwelling even if it is now in an unlivable condition. It also includes a building where the last permitted use was as a house, then it needs planning permission to demolish it. And this is no guarantee that you will get planning permission for a replacement, but you should.

jako117

Hi all

Iam a 20 year old lucky enough to have an opportunity to buy a site in the locality. Being as young as iam, i have no intention of building a house within the next seven to ten years at least. But i dont want to buy the site with out being able to build on it in the future (7-10 years).

Iam just looking for any advice as to what to do....and what planning if any, i should apply for before i buy...??

All advice will be appreciated....cheers

Poor Uncle Tom

Right now* a full planning permission will last for 5 years. Each Development Plan lasts 5 or 6 years and includes planning and building policies which should cover the area your piece of ground is in.

To put it in a nutshell you have no guarantees whatsoever. Even a positive pre planning meeting document got right now may not be of any value once a Development Plan changes its building or planning policy.

* there is some attempts being made to introduce legislation to extend the duration of planning permissions granted up to 2010 from 5 years to 10 years, personally I don't think there's a hope. This is just in its infancy, there is not much detail out there on it yet.

muffler

Just to add that you can apply for outline planning permission and if granted will be valid for 3 years. A couple of months before the outline permission expires you can then make an application for what is called "permission consequent" and that should only be a formality hopefully and will then be valid for a further 5 years.

If, during that 5 year period, you commence and have substantial works completed you can then apply for an "extension of duration of the permission" for up to another 3 years.

Get a good local architectural technician who will help you out.

jako117

Thanks for all the great advice its really helpful...

Just one more question...What would ye do in my situation...?

Mellor

muffler wrote: »

Im going to both agree and disagree with Mellor on this one.

I agree that different PA's will have different opinions on it

You're right I should have been clear. I was speaking in relation to my own locality. I should of expressed this obviously.

muffler wrote: »

I think its fairly safe to say that PA's in general will include the floor area of your converted garage as being part of the overall 40m2 max area for exempted development.

Agreed, that one has no grey area. Schedule 2 - class 1 sets it out pretty clearly

jako117 wrote: »

Thanks for all the great advice its really helpful...

Just one more question...What would ye do in my situation...?

Personally, I'd sell the site and go on a spree, but i'm not considering build or settling anytime soon either.

muffler

Mellor wrote: »

Personally, I'd sell the site and go on a spree, but i'm not considering build or settling anytime soon either.

bobbygoldstar

bobbygoldstar wrote: »

this may sound like an obvious question but how is the rear of a house determined.
on the attached sketch is it the 'red line' or the 'blue line'.
is planning required for a single storey extension in the hatched area.
I think its the red line but kind of hoping I am wrong

Dun Laoighre Rathdown Co.Co got back to me. They would interept the blue line (side and back of garage) as rear of the house so planning is not required

starbelgrade

I've a question regarding planning for a music rehearsal studio. Basically I want to subdivide an existing industrial unit into rehearsal spaces for bands. I presume that this would require planning for a change of use, but as it's in an industrial estate & is zoned for commercial & industrial, would this be an issue?

Also - what's the fees for lodging an application for change of use?

Thanks in advance.

FLCP

Guys and girls,
quick question regarding the planning process, in general terms for obvious reasons. I had always thought that an application that was subject to a further information request was deemed to have been acceptable in all other areas. In short,if you get an FI, can you then be refused based on an issue that is not in the FI? This is all in general advice terms only, if there were a specifc query then it would be left up architects/planning consultants obviously.
Thanks

Mellor

FLCP wrote: »

Guys and girls,
quick question regarding the planning process, in general terms for obvious reasons. I had always thought that an application that was subject to a further information request was deemed to have been acceptable in all other areas. In short,if you get an FI, can you then be refused based on an issue that is not in the FI? This is all in general advice terms only, if there were a specifc query then it would be left up architects/planning consultants obviously.
Thanks

You could still be refused on an area not covered by a RFI.
The RFI is to clarify an issue for them. There is no reason that a area that is quite clear and needs no clarifying could be a deciding factor.
Also, and RFI isn't required to be a function by which issues are resolved. Nor are conditions, however both of these are often used for this purpose.

obonner

Hi All,

I have a 2 storey garage at the end of a long garden that backs directly onto a neighbouring garden. I am considering using the first floor as a home office for occasional use but would need to fit something like a dormer to let some additional light in. This could be on the side of the garage facing our house (and my next door neighbour I suppose!) and not into the garden to the rear. We are in a Z1 zone in the city.

A couple of questions:

Will I need planning to put a desk up there anyway (change of use or something?)

Will I be able to put in a window without planning?

Are there any general guidance leaflets/rules on converting rooms or garages for working from home?

I would only intend to work from there occasionally, max 2 days a week but probably less.

Mellor

obonner wrote: »

Will I need planning to put a desk up there anyway (change of use or something?)

Will I be able to put in a window without planning?

Are there any general guidance leaflets/rules on converting rooms or garages for working from home?

I would only intend to work from there occasionally, max 2 days a week but probably less.

Strictly speaking you do need planning for a change of use. Depending on the type of business, the council may let it slide, but you need to get this in writing, but;

You need planning for the dormer anyway, might as well wrap it all up together.

No leaflets regarding working from home that I know of.

No6

starbelgrade wrote: »

I've a question regarding planning for a music rehearsal studio. Basically I want to subdivide an existing industrial unit into rehearsal spaces for bands. I presume that this would require planning for a change of use, but as it's in an industrial estate & is zoned for commercial & industrial, would this be an issue?

Also - what's the fees for lodging an application for change of use?

Thanks in advance.

Hi starbelgrade, if the rehersal space is a commercial venture it could be considered commercial and not require a change of use planning, but it depends on what the existing planning for the building is actually for, if its industrial only then you will most likely require a change of use. The application cost is 3.60 per m²sq plus professional fees and expenses. You will also require a firecert if you make any material alterations (ie subdivide) to the building at 2.9 per msq plus fees and a disability access cert at 800 plus fees. The first thing I would do is hire a suitably qualified professional to advise you and have a pre planning meeting with your local area planner if possible.

Poor Uncle Tom

starbelgrade wrote: »

I've a question regarding planning for a music rehearsal studio. Basically I want to subdivide an existing industrial unit into rehearsal spaces for bands. I presume that this would require planning for a change of use, but as it's in an industrial estate & is zoned for commercial & industrial, would this be an issue?

Also - what's the fees for lodging an application for change of use?

Thanks in advance.

If the sub-division is not adding a floor, or dividing the unit into seperate units then it is not so much a planning issue as Compliance with requirements of Fire Safety Certificate issue.

Youo would be best advised to have a word with the Planning Department and the Fire Officer.

drumaneen

I built a large workshop (hobby woodwork) within the curtilage of my home some years back and need to apply for retention. There have never been any objections bto date.
Can anyone tell me if there is a 'statute of limitations' on unplanned developments like this? Basically I would like to know if there is a timelimit after which grant of retention planning is a formality.

sydthebeat

there is a statute of limitations in which the local authority can start proceedings to have the structure removed...... but this is not 'permission by default'.

retention permission is required to 'regularise' the structure. if there is no planning its still an unauthorised structure.

muffler

drumaneen wrote: »

I built a large workshop (hobby woodwork) within the curtilage of my home some years back and need to apply for retention. There have never been any objections bto date.
Can anyone tell me if there is a 'statute of limitations' on unplanned developments like this? Basically I would like to know if there is a timelimit after which grant of retention planning is a formality.

This issue crops up now and again and people can get confused regarding the legislation regarding unauthorised development.

First of all I would like to point you in the direction of the forum charter which includes details of what can and cant be discussed here.

Now to the issue at hand. Planning permission has never been or will ever be a formality. You make your application and its judged on its own merits. Doesn't really matter whether the application is for a proposed development or a retention of an existing development. In saying that it is widely accepted that applications for retention permission are generally more acceptable to the planning authorities depending upon the length of time the development has been in existence.

This brings me round nicely to what is probably the main thrust of your query. The Planning and Development regulations make it clear that a Planning Authority have a period of 7 years in which to detect unauthorised development and make contact with the legal owner. If they dont do so then there is a statutory bar placed on the PA which prevents them from taking any form of legal action in relation to the unauthorised development.

So the nuts and bolts of it all is that you may have a structure thats been there for more than 7 years but the PA cant do anything about it under the planning regs. However the anomaly in all this is that you still dont have planning permission for the structure and this would then become an issue should you ever decide to sell or even mortgage/re-mortgage the property.

I would strongly advise that you apply for retention planning permission.

johneym

hi Folks,

I am buying a 2nd hand house an my solicitor just wrote me saying I should do a planning search in galway county council!
I thought that was his job? Is it? Should he charge less or same if I do it?

How do I go about doing this and is it complicated? Whats it cost?

Thanks a lot,

John

(didnt see this thread in time)

Poor Uncle Tom

Go to any good AT they should carry out a Planning Search for you. I charge €100 for a planning search but I will not do one for that in Galway (too far) but that should be an indication. A solicitor will not do a planning search for you. (btw I gave the price as an indication not as a quote)

No6

Normally I would include a planning search and a land registry boundary check as part of a structural/condition survey & report, check with you solicitor if you also require one of these, you usually do for a second hand house, I charge around 300 for that lot!!! (Also an indication not a quote!!):D

johneym

thanks guys..

whats an AT?

johne