Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

muffler

johneym wrote: »

thanks guys..

whats an AT?

johne

Long answer


Short answer: Architectural technician

Noon

Hi All
We've applied to build an extension to our house which is in a 4&5 bed estate. Ours is a 4 bed and we applied to extend above the single level along the side. We hired and architect to draw up the plans to be in keeping with the existing houses etc and oversee the project.
We believe we have adhered to all the planning regs regarding boundaries, not having windows overlooking neighbours, not blocking light etc etc.
Last friday afternoon a guy from planning arrived and asked to have a look in the back garden to take photos because we had had objections from neighbours. He said he couldn't say who objected and on what grounds but that it would be 'up on the net on Monday'.
Our Architect said he knew nothing about it but would check. He didn't get any information either.
Yesterday first thing we got copies of the objections from planning (neighbours on both sides - exactly the same list - must have had a chat before submitting their letters!)
I wrote a letter of response refuting each point made and took some time off work to deliver the letter to the planning office.
They refused it saying we missed the closing date??? They said that objections and responses to objections have the same deadline..... I asked what happens if someone objects on the last day of the deadline and was told "your architect knows the system, they are in and out of this office all the time checking files and do handwritten notes at the desk on the deadline date if necessary". Surely this can't be right???
When someone cannot physically get to the planning office to see a file they have no choice but wait for the details to be posted on the web.
Do we not have a right to answer their objections?
Does this mean that we have to wait and see what the planning guy, who spent 2 mins in our garden, decides?
Advice pleeeeease:(

Poor Uncle Tom

Are you saying the planning was refused? or are you saying the planning department refused to take your letter refuting the observations/objections?

sydthebeat

Noon wrote: »

Hi All
We've applied to build an extension to our house which is in a 4&5 bed estate. Ours is a 4 bed and we applied to extend above the single level along the side. We hired and architect to draw up the plans to be in keeping with the existing houses etc and oversee the project.
We believe we have adhered to all the planning regs regarding boundaries, not having windows overlooking neighbours, not blocking light etc etc.
Last friday afternoon a guy from planning arrived and asked to have a look in the back garden to take photos because we had had objections from neighbours. He said he couldn't say who objected and on what grounds but that it would be 'up on the net on Monday'.
Our Architect said he knew nothing about it but would check. He didn't get any information either.
Yesterday first thing we got copies of the objections from planning (neighbours on both sides - exactly the same list - must have had a chat before submitting their letters!)
I wrote a letter of response refuting each point made and took some time off work to deliver the letter to the planning office.
They refused it saying we missed the closing date??? They said that objections and responses to objections have the same deadline..... I asked what happens if someone objects on the last day of the deadline and was told "your architect knows the system, they are in and out of this office all the time checking files and do handwritten notes at the desk on the deadline date if necessary". Surely this can't be right???
When someone cannot physically get to the planning office to see a file they have no choice but wait for the details to be posted on the web.
Do we not have a right to answer their objections?
Does this mean that we have to wait and see what the planning guy, who spent 2 mins in our garden, decides?
Advice pleeeeease:(

lots of slightly incorrect assumptions made here.

1. any objection or submission must be made within the first 5 weeks of teh application

2. the decision must be made between the 5th and the 8th week.

3. the reason for this is so that the planner can see any objections, reports etc when they open the file... which is never before the 5th week is up.

4. when the planner decides, they can do one of three things. they can grant, they can refuse, of they can ask for more information (called a Further Information request)

5. most county councils now have a facility to view the application document on the internet

so where exactly is your application at this stage?
has a decision been made?? you don't say it has....
i am assuming that the planner hasn't made a decision yet.

How did you get copies of the objections? did you ask for them at the counter? If so this is possible because copies can be bought at the counter.

If what i assume is correct then you need not worry.

The planner may not consider the objections to have merit so may not refer at all to them. The planner may simply ask for you to comment on the objections. If this happens, this will allow you to have your say.

If the planner thinks the objections have merit then they would most likely ask for a redesign to counteract the issues.

The most significant result of an objection is that the objector now has an opportunity to appeal the decision to an bord pleanala.

Noon

Sorry for the garbled info. i was in a tiz. The planning dept refused to take our letter refuting the objections.

Noon

Thanks sydthebeat. To make a little more sense this time....
Mr Planning Guy paid us a visit after the 5 weeks were up.
I'd be very surprised if he asks for more information. He got photos, drawings with full measurements, 3D images etc etc.
My worry is that the neighbours (on the side we want to extend) are the type who like to name drop about which Councellors, TDs, upstanding members of the community etc that they know and would object if someone had the audacity to park on the public road outside their house!!
Our architect was shocked that they objected. Granted some of the things they listed were frivilous - our current (6 x 8) shed was too big for example.
If we are asked to redesign can they object again?
If things go to An Bord Pleanala what can we do?

sydthebeat

Noon wrote: »

If we are asked to redesign can they object again?

yes, they have two weeks after an FI to make more observaions.

Noon wrote: »

If things go to An Bord Pleanala what can we do?

if it is appealed, you will be give a chance to make your case in writing. Definitely get your architect to do this, if it gets to that stage.

zelemon

Folks,

A client has asked me to prepare a plannign compliance for a commerical property for which planning was granted in 1995. Most conditions apppear to have been adhered to however there are a number of differences between drawings & what was constructed are as in the shopfront window is slighty bigger & the door is in a different location, should I issue the cert or is this a substantial issue?

muffler

zelemon wrote: »

Folks,

A client has asked me to prepare a plannign compliance for a commerical property for which planning was granted in 1995. Most conditions apppear to have been adhered to however there are a number of differences between drawings & what was constructed are as in the shopfront window is slighty bigger & the door is in a different location, should I issue the cert or is this a substantial issue?

Hard to say without seeing what was approved and what's been built.

A certificate of compliance will normally contain something along the lines of the "development has been constructed in substantial compliance with the grant of permission" so its really your call then if the issue is "substantial" or not.

Comic Book Guy

Hi Folks,

Got approved for planning for construction of a two storey dwelling last friday.
One of the conditions is that a revised dwelling house design shall be submitted which shall reduce ridge height to 8.0 metres.

I had a pre planning meeting before submitting our application. Showed the planner draft drawings which showed overall height of 9.3 metres. Planner told me that everything looked fine with only suggestion that i drop ridge height to 8.5 metres.
I went back to our architect and got him to make the necessary change and submitted it.

Just wondering lads what would happen if i belted away with the original height of 8.5 metres? Am just concerned about ceiling height of rooms upstairs having to reduce it by a further 0.5 metres which council are looking for.

smashey

Your architect will be signing off on this and I'd imagine he wouldn't be happy to do so if you kept the 8.5m metre height as it wouldn't comply with the conditions of planning.

gman2k

Comic Book Guy wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Got approved for planning for construction of a two storey dwelling last friday.
One of the conditions is that a revised dwelling house design shall be submitted which shall reduce ridge height to 8.0 metres.

I had a pre planning meeting before submitting our application. Showed the planner draft drawings which showed overall height of 9.3 metres. Planner told me that everything looked fine with only suggestion that i drop ridge height to 8.5 metres.
I went back to our architect and got him to make the necessary change and submitted it.

Just wondering lads what would happen if i belted away with the original height of 8.5 metres? Am just concerned about ceiling height of rooms upstairs having to reduce it by a further 0.5 metres which council are looking for.

Don't belt away with doing anything until you have complied with the conditions of planning. Obviously we do not know what your house looks like, but there are ways and means of keeping the necessary space requirements with a lower profile.
BTW, what gets said at pre-planning meetings can often be meaningless - but you know this now yourself!

Poor Uncle Tom

gman2k wrote: »

Don't belt away with doing anything until you have complied with the conditions of planning. Obviously we do not know what your house looks like, but there are ways and means of keeping the necessary space requirements with a lower profile.
BTW, what gets said at pre-planning meetings can often be meaningless - but you know this now yourself!

+1

This is a condition of your planning permission, if you don't want to redesign your house to the new ridge height and you would like to keep your design as it is then you can always appeal to án Bord Pleanála.

Note: Advising to flout the Planning Permission is a breach of the forum charter.

Comic Book Guy

Thanks for the advice lads.

Talked with architect this morning. Going to drop the ceiling height downstairs from 9 to 8 foot and change pitch of the roof for the remainder.

Meeting mate of mine tommorrow or wednesday eve to do up the spec for builders quotes and hopefully will be in business not too long from now (still undecided on heating system but will get there!!)

gman2k

@ Comic Book guy - One word of advice re floor to ceiling heights - the minimum is 2.4m for habitable rooms.
I.E. 2.4m from underneath of finished plastered ceiling to top of finished flooring.
Many people make the mistake of designing/ constructing the 2.4m dimension from 'concrete floor to underneath of joist.
A good way to avoid this issue is to increase your dimensions to minimum 2475mm from conc floor to joist, and similar upstairs.

Free_Energy

Hi All,

I'm an Engineering student and am currently involved in a project which involves investigating the possibility of installing a hydro electric power system at an old mill. The project is a feasibility study and I need to look into any issues that would arise for obtaining planning permission. The building is listed as a protected structure. I'm aware that special procedures apply when dealing with protected structures but if anyone could give me any specific details on what i would be required to do i would much appreciate it.

Thank you.

sydthebeat

Free_Energy wrote: »

Hi All,

I'm an Engineering student and am currently involved in a project which involves investigating the possibility of installing a hydro electric power system at an old mill. The project is a feasibility study and I need to look into any issues that would arise for obtaining planning permission. The building is listed as a protected structure. I'm aware that special procedures apply when dealing with protected structures but if anyone could give me any specific details on what i would be required to do i would much appreciate it.

Thank you.

good advice here:
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Planning/ConservationHeritage/ProtectedStructures/PlanningPermissionandProtectedStructures/

namely these two pdfs:

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Planning/ConservationHeritage/ProtectedStructures/PlanningPermissionandProtectedStructures/FileDownload,20358,en.pdf

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Planning/ConservationHeritage/ProtectedStructures/PlanningPermissionandProtectedStructures/FileDownload,20359,en.pdf

Free_Energy

Thanks for the help mate!

guideanna

Hi everyone,

We bought our site with full planning permission and one of the conditions of this was to have a biocycle system installed.
It's now time for us to start thinking about getting this but after pricing them i'm thinking it's a bit much to be looking at 7k+ when i can get an adequete system for under 4k.
Was looking at the Biocycle Aquastar which is around the 4 mark, hav emailed the coucil to see if this would be allowed seeing as it is technically a biocycle product.
Anyone have any experience with how the planning dept might swing on this...really don't have the money at this stage of the build for a 7k sewage system. Don't want to just put in something against the planning conditions for fear of them finding out and having pay even more to have it replaced so i'd like to do things by the book if possible.

Mellor

Just run what ever you are thinking of by them. If they say yes, get it in writing.

guideanna

Spoke with the guy in the planning dept, bit of a grump, he said no i'd have to reapply for planning if it was a condition of the permission granted. Raging as the electirition tells me the biocycle runs off a 7core system where as most people use systems using a 4core and this will men more money for cable etc for him as well as the extra expense of the biocycle itself. Agh!! Really annoying as electrition say not even 10% of houses he's worked on would use the 7core and so i can't help thinking we don't need this big biocycle system...really thought we'd be ok with Aquastar.

rayjdav

This is why when I do Planning Notices I always note that the system, if required, will be a Proprietary Treatment System. As most Councils now will not accept the SR6:1991 test, but only the EPA 2000 test, the recommendations by the tester is usually noted as above, and not Product Specific. This leaves the option open to the owner to shop around prior to installation, assumming that the chosen system is complient in all aspects to the test result and all conditions of Planning. If you, (elected representative/TD) argued with the Planner, requesting that the alternative system be installed and undertake to submit a cert of compliance, stating that the system is adequate and meets all local and test requirments, assuming EPA, standards. Unfortunately this particular brandname is now accepted to describe treatment systems generally. Bit tough that the planner will now see logic (I know, planners and logic in the same sentence...)

guideanna

rayjdav thanks for that, i'm just about grasping what your saying...it's all new to me this building lark!
So just out of curiosity do you know of any other brands that comply with the same regulations as Biocycle, (EPA 2000?). I could try this route if i found something with the same level quality of effluent output as the biocycle.
This is the very reason i bought my site with planning aleready granted i swear the planners do just be picking things out to annoy us!!

rayjdav

Guideanna,
Not sure if I can namedrop products but trust me, a quick glance in the golden pages will give you loads of contacts. Beware, some have gone out of business due to current climate. I'm sure there must be previous old discussions on this topic elsewhere on boards.ie so a quick search could prove very useful.
Surely your AT/Arch will be able to supply you with this info anyway. If you do go alternative, make sure and pass on your site specific report to the supplier and get them, in writing, to confirm that their system will meet the standards set out therein. They will all try and sell you their magnificent product, take money and run. Beware..
Final word of caution, compare like for like. Not all systems do the same thing or need raised bed, sunken pits, additional tanks, greater loading etc etc etc. Happy spec. reading bud :-)

guideanna

That's the thing Rayjdave, the architect is really pushing the Biocycle on us.He knows the rep we're dealing with in Biocycle and if you ask me it's all a bit to convenient for the two of them!

The quote for Biocycle including the polishing filter is coming in at €8500 which i just think is CRAZY money to enable me flush the toilet in my house. Has anyone got the Biocycle and could they please tell me if that's the ball park of the figure they had to pay.

I completley understand that Biocycle is a good brand and i'm getting more for the money but at this stage of the build to be told i need to find the guts of 9k for something i can't even see is not realistic for us.
The planning dept said i will need to reapply for permission as the site permission granted was subject to biocycle being the selected system.

I'm trying to think have i any other options...i either pay for the biocycle or i go back to the drawing boar and re-apply for permission for a different system (which i'm told will mean new percolation test costing me about 700??), and then i might not even get the permission for something else.
The rep also "kindly" informed me that the polishing filter used for the Aquastar system cost even more that the one for Biocycle so after paying that and the new test i'd probably be coming out around the same as the Bio!!

I feel trapped into a corner on this and because i don't fully understand the workings of it all i'm finding it hard to see any way around having this huge chunk of my budget go "down the toilet" literally!!

rayjdav

As said above, gather all alternative information, make a final choice, and if the Planner wont listen, as usually dont, go direct to the Sanitary Services department. Also, another option available, as mentioned, your local TD (THATS WHAT THEY ARE PAID TO DO) get him/her to make direct contact with the S.E.P. in the PA, make your case and if they cant alter the PP, there is no Justice. This is totally above board as I have gone this route a number of times down here in the S.E. of the country. Not with treatment systems but with particular conditions attached to a PP.
On the point of another site test, if the test done was to EPA Standard, NO is the answer to that. This test only details the conditions of the actual site and does not lead to conclusion that only one particular type of brand system is useable. The results can be used for numerous brands, assuming that the chosen brand meets all regulations and standards.
I must point out that I have nothing against this particular brand. It is well known and is well worth its cost, afaik. I personnally have never speced it as I am aware of the costings to clients. But, it must be said, if the person who does my site specifics actually speced it for a particular site and justified the reason, I would have no hesitation in encouraging the client to agree to its proposal and installation. Just to make the matter clear :-)

sydthebeat

rayjdav.

Imagine this scenario, as is happening in laois:

Council carry out SR 6 tests. Council grant based on these results.
Council then impose a condition which states that the treatment system shall be inspected and certified in accordance with EPA guidelines by a competent professional holding relevant PI insurance.

So, not withstanding the fact that no competent professional exists as no training course is currently active, the council, after taking €300 from an applicant to carry out a SR 6 test, they now request the client to get another test done, at approx €450. This test can possibly throw up any result from an agreement with the SR 6 result to the complete unsuitability of the site for safe treatment. Imagine what would happening in that situation???!?!?

Also, depending on the contractors schedule of works, a professional must be on sit to inspect and basically oversee the installation of the system and the construction of the percolation area. Conservatively this could incur 3 site visits.

pajoguy

Question.

The settlement strategy for this area states

It is the policy of the Council to permit single housing in areas with a Strong Agricultural Base where any of the following criteria are met:
(a) the application is being made by a long term landowner or his/her family; or
(b) the applicant is engaged in working the family farm and house is for that persons own use and the applicant can demonstrate that he/she is eligible under the above criteria; or
(c) the applicant is working in essential rural activities; or
(d) the application is being made by a local rural person(s) who for family and/or work reasons wish to live in the rural area in which they have spent a substantial period of their lives. This also applies to persons who have left the rural area and now wish to reside in the place they grew up in; or
(e) the application is for that person’s own use and the applicant can demonstrate that he/she is eligible under the above criteria.
Documentary evidence must be submitted to support this evidence.
One or more of the following documentation should be provided: Full birth certificate, (including name & address of parents); copy of school roll; location plan showing the dwelling where applicant or spouse/intended spouse/partner/co applicant were born in area; utility bills from at least 10 years ago for a dwelling in the area of strong agricultural base.
This policy is designed to facilitate those people who in addition to one of the above criteria must demonstrate a housing need to reside in rural areas. This policy is designed to ensure that the application for a dwelling is made by a person who needs to live in the area. A local rural person is a person who was born in the local area or who is living, or whose parents or children have been living, within the local area for a minimum of ten years. Local rural person includes a local rural worker who is working in the local area.


The part in bold is what I'm interested in. Does this mean that even though I have moved away from home to a different county (circa 30 miles away)but wish to live back home now that I fulfill this criteria. I moved into a house that my wife owns that she bought before she met me. We know wish to live near my home. Born and reared there,lived there for over 20 years and still play GAA there.
I have pre planning meeting soon but have heard some different interpretations of this! if anybody can shed any light on the matter please do.

rayjdav

Sydthebeat,
I know it is a ridiculous situation. I have'nt done a job up midlands for a while. Loads done in Offaly and Carlow where council used to do test also, not sure if still do, but I thought most councils were shying away from the responsibilities of the results proceedure on this one???
In Waterford they have a list of "Approved Testers" where you must choose from, from day one. One must possess a relevant degree and have PI and also demonstrate that they have previously submitted, to "satisfaction", an application to the coco, or neighbouring county. This can, and is, spot checked. Does away with all the ambiguities!!
On the 2nd test, there was a Wexford company dealing in septic tanks (SR6 Suitable), very reputable, where, if you passed them on your initial results, they would undertake the 2nd test and, assuming you purchased their product, would deduct any monies previously paid (2nd test) from the final amount owing. Not sure if victims of recession or not or if this procedure is still ongoing. Even if the coco test dictated treatment system, many of the reputible companies have this procedure still in place. Cert of compliance surely would come from the Arch/Eng overseeing the build anyway??? This is a standard form of condition of planning when any treatment works are proposed, down this neck of the woods anyway..
Logic and councils DONT go hand in hand, I think we can all agree on that one;)

rayjdav

Pajoguy,
The Pre-Planning:D Most on here will agree that Section 247 of the Act should be deleted as it means absolutley nothing. It has no basis in fact whatsoever. Different Planner/different opinion, imho and experience.
My advise to you prior to meeting:rolleyes:, is log onto their ePlan, see what other recent local permissions granted, if similar to yours, hey presto, Precedent. They dont like that one but we have to be able to get one over them every so often.. Also, as said in previous post, your local elected rep should be on board if you intend to apply under rural settlement criteria. It can be a difficult avenue to proceed without good experience. I've done this in South Tipp before and the amount of paperwork, local clubs and schools attended, Parish Priest letter, Local TD letter etc etc that I had to submit to sway the council to grant on similar type to what you describe. Granted but after a lot of hardship. Again, dont take what is said in your pre-planning as gospel. IT WILL CHANGE... Me, cynical? Never...