Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

The Raven.

I have been trying to find the laws/regulations regarding green open spaces in housing estates in the Statute Book. I found the relevant objectives in the County Development Plan and the Local Area Plan, but I have searched in the Planning and Development Act 2000 and the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 and so far I can't find what I am looking for.

What I want to know is the following:

1. Is there is a specific requirement for a percentage of green open space in relation to the size of the estate?

2. What protection is there if the local authority wants to close off some of the open spaces against the wishes of the residents?

3. Any other statutory regulations pertaining to Green open spaces in housing estates.

I would be most grateful if some of the experts here in this field could point me in the right direction to find this information. It is a matter of urgency at this point as time is running out fast.

Thank you,

The Raven.

Poor Uncle Tom

The Raven. wrote: »

I have been trying to find the laws/regulations regarding green open spaces in housing estates in the Statute Book. I found the relevant objectives in the County Development Plan and the Local Area Plan, but I have searched in the Planning and Development Act 2000 and the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 and so far I can't find what I am looking for.

There is a publication by The Department of Environment from 1997
http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/LocalAgenda21/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,1825,en.pdf

which was encouraged to be incorporated in the individual Development Plans and Area Action Plans.
There is a whole paragraph on page 151 devoted to open spaces.

Each individual Plan, be it an Area Action Plan of a Development Plan should have their own recommendations for open space areas with a housing development.

The following is also worth a read
http://www.ndp.ie/documents/NDP2007-2013/NDP_Main_Ch03.pdf

The Raven.

Uncle Tom, thanks for going to the trouble of responding. I have looked at those websites. The DoEHLG recommendations are interesting, especially page 151 on open space. I am not sure whether it is strong enough for what I had in mind. I thought there must be laws or by-laws in existence that would indicate the rights of residents in housing estates to protect their green open space. The council tends to pay lip service to such recommendations in their development plans, but all too often ignore them in practise.

I couldn't find anything in the second link that you posted that might be relevant to the above.

Thanks again.

sydthebeat

The Raven. wrote: »

I thought there must be laws or by-laws in existence that would indicate the rights of residents in housing estates to protect their green open space.

the best protection is the planning laws..... on two basis:

1. any development on the green space will compromise the "as per drawings" condition of the parent permission
2. that the subject development requires planning permission thus allowing public comment.

can you fill us in on some background??

one big push

i have been trying to get planning for a house on my farm for the past four year being refused twice had loads off meeting but it always one step forward 3 speps backwards any way i taugh i was sorted this time a site was agreed being over a half a mile in and in a bit off a hole but when i got the planning decision they want me in a different site futher in and lower .this site is within 35 meters off my farm yard and the sheds can hold over 300 animals and has silage pits etc.i am wondering is the fact that the yard will be so close to the site be good grounds to appeal to An bord pleanala, also any idea what the success rate is for appeals to an bord pleanala.Thanks.

muffler

one big push wrote: »

i have been trying to get planning for a house on my farm for the past four year being refused twice had loads off meeting but it always one step forward 3 speps backwards any way i taugh i was sorted this time a site was agreed being over a half a mile in and in a bit off a hole but when i got the planning decision they want me in a different site futher in and lower .this site is within 35 meters off my farm yard and the sheds can hold over 300 animals and has silage pits etc.i am wondering is the fact that the yard will be so close to the site be good grounds to appeal to An bord pleanala, also any idea what the success rate is for appeals to an bord pleanala.Thanks.

So if the council do decide to grant you permission close to the farm yard and you appeal to ABP and they refuse it - where are you going to build then?

rayjdav

Also, technically, if they have granted you permission on a different site(plot), which was not contained within the site boundaries as applied for, this permission(condition) can be argued to be void. The application site must be outlined in red and the LA have only got juristiction to determine an issue therein. You do not say that at RFI stage, if any, if this issue was raised and you conceeded/agreed to alter the boundaries, which again technically, is a significant alteration to an application. Add to this, assuming as you are so far from a road, you have applied for a treatment system, your test report is not relevant to this plot of land either. As I keep advising, if the grant is fresh off the printer, contact your local TD and get him/her to approach the SEP asap, and see if he will overturn, in writing, this condition. Hard to give exact opinion without naturally being aware of all circumstances involved. Once again, this is from experience, and this was the route I used as opposed to ABP, totally above board and on the planning register. No point dealing with the junior planner who prepared the report, they only play the tune of the grinder...
PS: If the house(site) is so close to an agricultural building, the fact you are rural and the likley hood is that you will have to bore a well, considering the potential for effluent overspill from the sheds, the chances of you getting potable water is going to be very difficult, unless the gradients on site are extreme. Put it this way, I wouldnt bore anywhere near one of them. If group scheme, this alleviates some of the hardship.

sydthebeat

one big push wrote: »

i have been trying to get planning for a house on my farm for the past four year being refused twice had loads off meeting but it always one step forward 3 speps backwards any way i taugh i was sorted this time a site was agreed being over a half a mile in and in a bit off a hole but when i got the planning decision they want me in a different site futher in and lower .this site is within 35 meters off my farm yard and the sheds can hold over 300 animals and has silage pits etc.i am wondering is the fact that the yard will be so close to the site be good grounds to appeal to An bord pleanala, also any idea what the success rate is for appeals to an bord pleanala.Thanks.

whats the problem with being 35m from YOUR farm yard??

the traditional farmhouse was ON the farm.

one big push

Uncle tom they have granted me premission close to the farm yard in a hole and i dont think think this is good enough ,there is over 100 acres to choose from and i have bent over backward to be reasonable and as for where would i build then it wont be in that hole looking up at the farm yard:mad: sure if i had to sell the house for some reason no body would touch it.

one big push

Thanks rayjav for your helpfull reply but the low spot is within the red lines just about.i had got my td to hold a meeting with the director of services he looked at the site when the poles were up and was happy and could see no problem but the planner looks like pulled a fast one and gave planning put on the lower side off the site ...im tring for over 4 years to get planning and spent neary 20000 euro and dont want to spent more time and money and end up with nothing...will get back on the td but i feel like all im doing is pissing off the planner:D

one big push

sydthebeat, im sure traditional farm houses were in the farm yard thats not my problem mine is that i being up i a hole about 40 feet below the yard level so that when u stand in the yard u would be able to see over the roof off the house..not a great location if one off the slurry store burst or leaks as i think it would find its way to the site. i have no problem if the the levels were the same.

Poor Uncle Tom

Without knowing your exact circumstances it is hard to offer an opinion. Some Development Plans allow a provision to provide a dwelling house with a farmyard, but the siting of the house is every bit as important as the positioning of any farm building. It was traditional to have your farmhouse within a farmyard complex to allow a farmer to be near his animals, for calvings, etc., The scale of farm buildings has increased so much in recent decades that it is not wise to put a dwelling house too close to such buildings anymore, for the health of the people living in the house. Also with the introduction of cameras and animal surveylance it is not necessary to build up close to farm buildings anymore.

Talk to your TD and Director of Services again and ask for the original commitment to be honoured, if they don't I would take it to án Bord Planeála. I think you can make a valid case for a decently placed house as owner, carer and runner of the farmyard.

sheridnd

Hi All,

I have been refused planning and would like to get some thoughts on what my next actions might be.

The proposed site is family owned land and it has existing houses located at both ends of the site. Around 5 houses at one end and 1 house at the other. The site is just outside a urban town boundary (20 metres or so) it is fully serviced (i.e. water, sewerage etc. the local town bus going up and down the road!) from the town.

There is one point of refusal ribbon development. (where 5 or more houses exist on any one side of a given 250 metres of road frontage)

In the refusal it says that this is a rural area. What is the exact definition of a rural area? does it make any difference that it is fully serviced by the town? Does ribbon development apply just to rural area’s?

Could it be argued that the proposed site is infill? Which seems to be a exception for ribbon development the proposed site has road footage of over a 100 metres is this to much to be considered infill?

What next? Any thoughts.

Thanks

sydthebeat

sheridnd wrote: »

Hi All,

I have been refused planning and would like to get some thoughts on what my next actions might be.

The proposed site is family owned land and it has existing houses located at both ends of the site. Around 5 houses at one end and 1 house at the other. The site is just outside a urban town boundary (20 metres or so) it is fully serviced (i.e. water, sewerage etc. the local town bus going up and down the road!) from the town.

There is one point of refusal ribbon development. (where 5 or more houses exist on any one side of a given 250 metres of road frontage)

In the refusal it says that this is a rural area. What is the exact definition of a rural area? does it make any difference that it is fully serviced by the town? Does ribbon development apply just to rural area’s?

Could it be argued that the proposed site is infill? Which seems to be a exception for ribbon development the proposed site has road footage of over a 100 metres is this to much to be considered infill?

What next? Any thoughts.

Thanks

seems like a very very harsh reason for refusal.

a full serviced site is not considered "rural" in any of the counties i work in. Ribbon development is generally only applicable to rural dwellings ie ones with min 1/2 acre sites and waste water treatment systems.

Planning policy throughout the country is now focused on refusing rural applications while granting on serviced areas, all things being equal.

rayjdav

I always considered rural to be basically "white lands", as defined on a County Development Plan zoning charts. Never had an offical definition. This interested me so see attached.
http://www.cso.ie/surveysandmethodologies/surveys/populations/documents/pdf_docs/COP_quality_report_appendix9.pdf
This is from the CSO document listed above. The NSS references it on their "Irish Rural Structures and Gaeltacth Areas" doc. Basically, if a town has a population of +1500, in total defined catchment, it is to be considered urban. If defined as -1500 in total catchment, rural..

Sheridnd,
Basically what you appear to have here, imho and without knowing the total facts, is a "dirtied" site, in respect of a Planning Decision. There is now precedent on it and the chances of ABP overturning it, I believe is nil. As noted throughout this thread, there appears to be a serious crackdown on rural development, thanks Minister, and what I believe you should do, if you still want to proceed, is find another family plot and do all your homework prior to submission. Pre-planning:rolleyes: minutes attached resubmit on another parcel of land. You will be waiting months for a decision, which may go against you, when you could possibly be pouring foundations with a new application.
Try an ddeal with the SEP as opposed to the assigned junior planners throughout all the legwork.

sheridnd

Unfortunately this is the only site with road footage available to me so looking for another site is not really an option.

At this stage I guess your probably correct that trying to work with the planner to see if the issue can be worked around. Or some solution be it trying to argue that the site is not rural since it is fully serviced. Seeing as I’m no expert is it worth getting advice on this from someone before engaging with them?

I’m a little worried that as you say that they may view this as “dirtied” and could end up in months and years of hassle trying to sort it out …. nightmare

Charlie-Bravo

I'm thinking of doing a small shed & office down the back garden. I have considered the exempt development regulations. I can make everything comply with the regs except for one I am unsure about - The one about not for Human Habitation Use!

Does anyone know what constitutes Human Habitation? Take for example a permenant shed...if its a decent size, you can from time to time go into it, move some stuff around spending as long as you like in it - is this human habitation?

If the same structure is a workshop and doing pretty much doing something like say woodturning, is this activity Human Habitation?

Now if it is an office where you can go and sit at a computer and send an email, is this Human Habitation?

I suppose what I am asking is: at what point is it consideraed Human Habitation?

rayjdav

From Building Regulations, Technical Guidance Document, Part B, Fire Safety:
"Habitable room - A room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 m2, a bathroom,
toilet or shower room."
You can probably work from this what you need answered..
Also, technically, you cannot have an office as exempt in your home. It should be referred to as a study or similar. Office can bring parking issues etc. Just me being pedantic:)

Charlie-Bravo

Yes let's not call it an office....I take your point regarding fire regs and raise you Part F, Ventilation...

if the floor to ceiling doesn't confirm to the ventilation regs i.e. flat soffit ceiling less than 2.4m would not meet regs and is unhabitable?! So it's no good for habitation regardless of what you do in it!

00011000

Hi,

I want to build a windbreak/garden wall on my land at the side of my house. 150' (feet) across and 8/9' high. It will consist of a 2'5" cement wall and the rest will be wooden panels, supported by either iron or cement posts.

The wall will be at least 15' away from the boundary, 17' away from the house, and at least 300meters from the public road.

My house is situation on 8 acres and the wall really wouldn't affect anybody.

Do I need planning for this?

Edit: is the basic rule: "Anything above 2 meters needs planning"?

Poor Uncle Tom

Yes, you do need planning.

rx8

Hi all,

Hopefully someone on here can clear up a few questions I have.

In September 2007, my next-door neighbour was granted permission for an extension to the front and rear of his house. It was subject to certain conditions which would have reduced the size of the proposed development,and he subsequently appealed one of the conditions to ABP stating that I had no objection to the condition imposed, (It was to do with the amount of light and shading of my property, etc.). He stated that he had consulted me, and that I would be willing to write to them confirming this.
None of this was true,I was never asked by him, but it doesn't really matter now anyway.
ABP refused to change their decision and a final decision was given in September 2007. He subsequently decided not to proceed with the smaller extension,and put the house on the market.
Last week the house was finally sold and he moved.
The house was sold with planning permission and what I would like to know is,
How long does permission last for ?
Will the new owner have to build the same extension that the previous tenant didn't ?
Will he have to apply for new permisson for any extension he wants to build or just for a different type of extension?

Sorry if I've asked some stupid questions,but I'm told that the new owners won't be moving in until the work is finished, so they plan on starting soon.

Thanks,
RX 8.

muffler

rx8 wrote: »

How long does permission last for ?

5 years

rx8 wrote: »

Will the new owner have to build the same extension that the previous tenant didn't ?

No, not necessarily. If he chooses to build a different type of extension then he will have to reapply for permission or build an extension (to the rear) that is exempt from planning.

However there is nothing to stop him from building in accordance with the plans and permission granted.

rx8 wrote: »

Will he have to apply for new permisson for any extension he wants to build or just for a different type of extension?

See above

MR.BIG EARS

can anybody explain to me about retention.
my new build is a foot higher than on the plans, and my builder says i have to get retention.
my engineer is on holidays, what does this mean.
please help

sinnerboy

Hmmmm . You may find this thread of interest. . Read it first and if anything remains unclear do ask .

MR.BIG EARS

totally confused,
sf nearly the same but the poor frog got a hard time with the bully boys,
my question is what is retention and how does it work.ok

muffler

MR.BIG EARS wrote: »

but the poor frog got a hard time with the bully boys,

Seems to me that you are asking the same "bully boys" to give you advice now.

I'll pass, ta.

sydthebeat

MR.BIG EARS wrote: »

totally confused,
sf nearly the same but the poor frog got a hard time with the bully boys,
my question is what is retention and how does it work.ok

maybe the frog didnt get the answers he wanted, but as a non-contributor to THAT thread, i can safely say he got the correct advice. Non-compliance is non-compliance.

The same applies to you. If you contact the council they WILL tell you that the build is non-compliant.

Neither the council or the engineer created this problem, so dont expect them to break rules to suit you.

Rio_2010

Hi, I am new to here and have been reading threads for some time and this is my first post. I must say, Its extremely helpful.

Myself and my partner are in process of beginning a new build, have financing approved and just about to sign contracts on purchase of site with full planning for bungalow with no clauses.

Sellers had alternative plans drawn up increasing the floor space by putting 2 bedrooms upstairs and extra living room to the rear of ground floor.

These new plans were resubmitted to planning but refused (reason given was because the location of the house was significantly moved back into site and not in line with others on road.)

We had originally wanted to go with the alternative plans but as they are now refused, we are left with the original approved bungalow plans (expiring early 2011!).

So my question is as follows:

Can I build the extra 2 bedrooms upstairs and family room to rear) without going back to planning given the following: (perhaps apply for retention after?)

The 2 new bedrooms fit inside the envelope of the approved house plans. There is no change to front of building with the exception of one window being made slightly taller. (approx 1 ft).

The extra living space to the rear is small enough to be exempt (<25m2) I think? Thinking of leaving it out now and building it as an exemption after main building is complete.

Lastly, would I be pushing it if I also built a garage? (<40m2 and 4.5m tall meeting exemption guidelines).

Many thanks in advance for any advice, if Ive posted in wrong thread please let me know.

Rio

muffler

First of all welcome to the forum and feel free to post up whatever questions you have but see below.

Rio_2010 wrote: »

Can I build the extra 2 bedrooms upstairs and family room to rear) without going back to planning given the following: (perhaps apply for retention after?)

Have a read at the Forum Charter (takes less than a minute) and you will see that we would certainly discourage anyone from not complying with the Planning Regulations.

Rio_2010 wrote: »

The 2 new bedrooms fit inside the envelope of the approved house plans. There is no change to front of building with the exception of one window being made slightly taller. (approx 1 ft).

Developing the attic area is generally classed as exempted development but if you do this at construction stage you are increasing the floor area of the house and thus would be in non compliance with the planning permission granted. Altering a window size would also be non compliant but generally speaking if it's to the back of the house there would not normally be an issue with it. Increasing the size of a window to the front without prior approval would not be recommended.

Rio_2010 wrote: »

The extra living space to the rear is small enough to be exempt (<25m2) I think? Thinking of leaving it out now and building it as an exemption after main building is complete.

The exempted area to the rear would be 40m2 but this issue of adding on while the main structure is still under construction has cropped up a few times before and its accepted that in order for an "extension" to the rear of the house to be classed as exempted development the main structure must be completed and habitable.

Rio_2010 wrote: »

Lastly, would I be pushing it if I also built a garage? (<40m2 and 4.5m tall meeting exemption guidelines).

If you read this correctly you will see that the exempted size is 25m2. Im assuming you got it mixed up with the size of the exempted extension to the rear of the house. The maximum height is 4 metres providing it has a tile or slate roof to match the house. Just be aware that it has to be behind the front building line of the house. Again the question of a garage being exempt can only be answered the same as per the exempted extension - the house must be complete before you do so.