Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

DOCARCH

If there is a relatively large rear garden/private open space remaining (at least in excess of 25m.sq.), I'd say your neighbour is unlikely to be refused just on the basis of site coverage alone, especially if you are in Dublin City.

Site coverage is more relevant to the planning of new housing rather than extensions to existing houses.

Of course there may be other reasons to refuse.

rayjdav

I have done extension before whereby the 25sqm rule was relaxed. Client who was disabled and needed ground floor sleeping area. Special case though. Urban areas can get away with reduced site coverage % easier.
If you dont like what you see you can make a submission to the council. Voice your concerns, now, not after.
If you believe it will directly affect you, shadow and light study may be reqested to verify impact of proposal?

willa25

hi all, new to all this so not sure if going about it the right way,
can the boundaries on a site be changed to make it smaller.Our house is built 15 years and now we want to make site it is on smaller as we plan to build another house on other part of site.??

rayjdav

Willa,
Yes it can. You have a number of ways to go about it but you could include it on any subsequent application that you submit for the new works area. "Realignment of existing site boundaries........" The reason I would do it this way is that all permissions pertaining to the site would be condensed into one application and would eliminate confusion for any purchaser, if any, for the existing house.

Also, point to note, consult your local County Dev Plan to see what restrictions are in place for subdivisions of rural (I assume) plots. Some counties have very strict guidelines.

Also, make sure before you start to spend money that your site is big enough to take additional effluent systems if required.

BenK

DOCARCH wrote: »

If there is a relatively large rear garden/private open space remaining (at least in excess of 25m.sq.), I'd say your neighbour is unlikely to be refused just on the basis of site coverage alone, especially if you are in Dublin City.

Site coverage is more relevant to the planning of new housing rather than extensions to existing houses.

Of course there may be other reasons to refuse.

Slightly off topic but in relation to this, I would've thought the same but I was in for a pre-planning meeting in Kildare County Council a couple of weeks ago for a proposed extension (that included 1 extra bed room) to a 2-bed semi-detached house and the planner was looking for the standards in the Development Plan for a new 3-bed house to be met, i.e. 60 sq.m of private open space to be provided. I thought this very restrictive and when I pointed out to him that an exempt extension (I didn't go for it due to restrictions at first floor level) could be built with with only 25 sq.m. left he was a little lost for words but still stood by his 60 sq.m. requirement!

DOCARCH

BenK wrote: »

Slightly off topic but in relation to this, I would've thought the same but I was in for a pre-planning meeting in Kildare County Council a couple of weeks ago for a proposed extension (that included 1 extra bed room) to a 2-bed semi-detached house and the planner was looking for the standards in the Development Plan for a new 3-bed house to be met, i.e. 60 sq.m of private open space to be provided. I thought this very restrictive and when I pointed out to him that an exempt extension (I didn't go for it due to restrictions at first floor level) could be built with with only 25 sq.m. left he was a little lost for words but still stood by his 60 sq.m. requirement!

Oh I know - have been stuck in the same situation myself. Always lots of contradictions in planning!

I got planning for an extension to an existing Dublin city terraced house (2 bedroom - a 2up/2down) and we had only 9.0 m.sq. of private open space to the rear! Meanwhile I also did planning for a new 2-bed house in Dublin city and planners were looking for a min. of 48 m.sq. private open space, which was achieved, but no condition in planning that you could not then add an extension afterwards (i.e. after the house is complete - reduce the private open space). Planning would baffle you sometimes!

BenK

DOCARCH wrote: »

... Planning would baffle you sometimes!

100% with you on that one anyway!

borgfa

Hi all, I have a question about change of use.....If I take over what it use to be a retail shop and I want to start in that shop an automatic laundry business, leaving intact the structure of the building, do I require the change of use permission?
Many thanks

rayjdav

Change of use permission not required, in accordance with the Definitions of shop used in the Regs, Aticle 5 "Shop" definition (h). "As a laundrette or dry cleaners."
Stated in Part 4 Exempted Development Class 1 - Shop

See attached: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#parti

Take note, if there are any alterations externally, signage etc, you will require permission.

LazyPianist

Hi guys,

I'm having a 15 sq meter extension built at the rear of my house. I also want to convert my garage into a living space. I'm not sure about the roofs yet, but I'll probably have "A" roofs installed on each. My house is semi detached with the garage divided from my neighbours garage by a party wall.

Looking for some advice on planning permission drawings. I've hired an architect to put the package together. He's going to bring copies of the drawings over to me before making the application. So I'm wondering, what should I look for in terms of quality and content ? Presumably they have to be up to a certain standard for the planning permission people to accept - or if they are not, reject - them ? South Dublin Co. co. told me they want drawings that are to scale. Anything else I should look for ?

Moreover I want to discuss all of this with my neighbour. I wonder will the wall that divides our garages be an issue ? I don't want it to effect him, and I'll explain everything to him, but I suppose I'd like to know if a lean to roof would be less invasive than an "A" roof.

cheers guys. Sorry for the long winded explanation.

Poor Uncle Tom

We can't comment here without a lot more information about your roofs and party wall. Your Architect is on-the-ground and can see any problems you might have.

You could always check the eplan of the local authority and see if your Architect has made any recent valid planning applications, you should also be able to see the level of detail required in a valid planning application.

RKQ

What is the existing garage roof made of ?
No part of your new roof, gutter or rain-water pipe can overhang your neighbours property (without their consent).

Your Architect should has explained what he/she provides as part of their service for their fee. Its best that these terms are clear, are in writing and are fully agreed before the job starts. This avoid misunderstandings later.

There are national planning application stardards, used by all Councils. The quality required is quite high for a "valid" application. Each application is checked fully by the Council to ensure it passes these standards.

LazyPianist

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

We can't comment here without a lot more information about your roofs and party wall. Your Architect is on-the-ground and can see any problems you might have.

You could always check the eplan of the local authority and see if your Architect has made any recent valid planning applications, you should also be able to see the level of detail required in a valid planning application.

RKQ wrote: »

What is the existing garage roof made of ?
No part of your new roof, gutter or rain-water pipe can overhang your neighbours property (without their consent).

Your Architect should has explained what he/she provides as part of their service for their fee. Its best that these terms are clear, are in writing and are fully agreed before the job starts. This avoid misunderstandings later.

There are national planning application stardards, used by all Councils. The quality required is quite high for a "valid" application. Each application is checked fully by the Council to ensure it passes these standards.

The existing garage roof is a flat apron roof - a heavy felt membrane on plywood laid on top of timber joists. There is no seam in the roof i.e. no line dividing my roof from my neighbours. It's just one complete roof covering both garages. The only demarcation is a wall. I've gathered from preliminary discussions with builders and the architect, that the shared wall can be raised ( if my neighbours agree ) so that it becomes a parapet wall, and the new "A" or "lean too" roof can be contained within c/w a box gulley. According to South Dublin County council, I'm not under any legal obligation to provide this information to my neighbour, as they can object during the planning permission period. However, my approach would be very courteous, and I would go through everything with them, show them drawings etc. If they weren't happy with it, then I'd consider something else.

I got details on South Dublin County councils website of what they want. It's a pity they don't show a sample drawing to give people an idea of how a drawing should look.

I'll give South Dublin County council a call and ask them if they have sample drawings I could cross reference.

I haven't agreed a fee with the architect. No contract has been drawn up. When I discussed his fee initially, he told me we could talk about money later! He was recommended by a friend, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps I'm being too nice ? My own view is that if the planning permission drawings aren't up to a certain standard, then I won't be forking out money for them. I'm expecting a charge of about 500 euro based on information gleaned from other sources.

DOCARCH

LazyPianist wrote: »

It's a pity they don't show a sample drawing to give people an idea of how a drawing should look. I'll give South Dublin County council a call and ask them if they have sample drawings I could cross reference.

I'm expecting a charge of about 500 euro based on information gleaned from other sources.

Firstly, you can look up previous planning applications, in your neighbourhood and anywhere in the county, on the South Dublin Co Co website. This should give you an idea of what's expected. One question. If you do no know what's expected, how can you judge if the drawings are 'up to scratch'? If your architect is any good, trust and leave it to them.

Secondly, your expectations re: a fee could be dashed! Planning applications for E500 are few and far between if you take into account, OS maps, newspaper notices, etc, etc. Agree a fee with the architect. I would also suggest the architect is being a bit silly not agreeing a fee first - given your expectation, the probable outcome is an argument!

joeyhehir

I've received planning permission but with 10 conditions. The conditions involve lots of money to be paid to the county council. I feel like I'm being milked.

My first complaint is that the document I received is not signed or dated. Then the English is simply terrible. The way sentences are written, 1 , 2 or 3 different meanings could be interpreted. I feel like I'm dealing with complete amateurs.

The comments are basically changes to the design that will mean more money to be paid to the county council. 2 of the conditions indicate that my drawings have not even been studied.

I'm in shock! Is this what is happening all over the country?

Poor Uncle Tom

It happens quite a bit. I got planning permission for a Secondary School extension two years ago which had a lengthy condition with 5 sub sections on a proposed new entrance but the entrance to the school was in place and it was not proposed to do anything with it. There was also a 7 year residency condition attached to the permission.

In that particular case I pointed out all the errors to the Headmaster, then we sat down and put together a letter on the school's headed paper, outlining our grieviences and being a little naughty we asked:
1. Would all the pupils have to live at the school for the full 7 years or just the teachers?
2. What powers the LA had to make the school a boarding school?
3. The full school term was a maximum of 6 years, what would we do with the pupils for the seventh year? Teach basic planning engineering duties, perhapse?
We rounded off the letter by saying it was the LA themselves who afforded us the oppertunity to make a laughing stock of them, but on a very serious note, we needed this legal document amended before we forwarded it to the Department in respect of grant aiding for the development. Needless to say this never made it to eplan, but it is on the file...:D

You need to list off your quearies in a letter to the planning office immediately, you will get a response.

gman2k

joeyhehir wrote: »

I've received planning permission but with 10 conditions. The conditions involve lots of money to be paid to the county council. I feel like I'm being milked.

My first complaint is that the document I received is not signed or dated. Then the English is simply terrible. The way sentences are written, 1 , 2 or 3 different meanings could be interpreted. I feel like I'm dealing with complete amateurs.

The comments are basically changes to the design that will mean more money to be paid to the county council. 2 of the conditions indicate that my drawings have not even been studied.

I'm in shock! Is this what is happening all over the country?

It's down to poor training of administrative staff, lack of management in the planning departments and poor morale - due to excess workload, paycuts, redundancies etc.
What happens is that staff simply copy and paste text from other planning files when formulating conditions without it being checked.
I've had similar situations with grants of permission, and it gets very infuriating. BTW the same things happen with requests for further information.
It's further proof that the planning process should be centralised nationally, with one location handling planning, instead of 26 counties, and further subdivisions and town councils etc....

bro'

My Architect has retired and I have a question about transfer of lands..

I am widening my site by 1.5m on one side to open rural land owned by family and want to submit details to land registry. What is the process to complete this with a solicitor?

I already got an OSI land registry map (1:2500 scale) of my site and surrounding area but how do you mark up the new site size? Do I need to get an Archtect to mark this up for submission?

thanks

muffler

bro' wrote: »

I already got an OSI land registry map (1:2500 scale) of my site and surrounding area but how do you mark up the new site size? Do I need to get an Archtect to mark this up for submission?

Shamelessly I would suggest you get a local architectural technician to do this for you. Your solicitor will probably know someone.

bro'

thanks Muffler

any idea on cost for this by the technician?

muffler

bro' wrote: »

thanks Muffler

any idea on cost for this by the technician?

Providing that its just a case of marking the additional little strip on the map and calculating the area then you could be looking at anything from €50 - €100. I know there's a bit of a gulf in the price but everyone has their own personal rates for these jobs.

I assume that there is no need for him to visit the site.

RKQ

gman2k wrote: »

It's further proof that the planning process should be centralised nationally, with one location handling planning, instead of 26 counties, and further subdivisions and town councils etc....

I have to disagree 100%. Centralisation is not a solution.
The current situation isn't perfect but its better than a Central system. Local planning should be decided by each Local Authority, after using National stratagies, Planning law etc to formalate a Development Plan.
Better training and a more uniformed process would help improve the process. National guidelines from central Government are sometimes necessary.

I am unaware of any Western country with a successful central planning authority, that judges every single planning application in the country.

ABP is a centralised national body and many might feel they lack knowledge of each local area and its development needs.

bro'

muffler wrote: »

Providing that its just a case of marking the additional little strip on the map and calculating the area then you could be looking at anything from €50 - €100. I know there's a bit of a gulf in the price but everyone has their own personal rates for these jobs.

I assume that there is no need for him to visit the site.

Thant's all it is Muffler no site visit required-essentially with 1:2500 scale the 1.5m strip will be 0.6mm wide on the plan!!

LazyPianist

DOCARCH wrote: »

Firstly, you can look up previous planning applications, in your neighbourhood and anywhere in the county, on the South Dublin Co Co website. This should give you an idea of what's expected. One question. If you do no know what's expected, how can you judge if the drawings are 'up to scratch'? If your architect is any good, trust and leave it to them.

Secondly, your expectations re: a fee could be dashed! Planning applications for E500 are few and far between if you take into account, OS maps, newspaper notices, etc, etc. Agree a fee with the architect. I would also suggest the architect is being a bit silly not agreeing a fee first - given your expectation, the probable outcome is an argument!

I can't judge if the drawings are up to scratch. I spoke to SDCC and they told me what they expect in the PP package. I'm not sure what to look for when I review the drawings, besides them meeting what we specified. Anyway I'll take your good advice and have a look at previous applications. Thanks.

True. If it's more than that, say 800-900 Euro, I'm not too bothered, but I've been told by others that they got it done for 400-500 Euro. People do tend to exaggerate ( or in this case under-estimate in retrospect, especially if the service they received was good ). I did take that initial price with a pinch of salt.

Yeh I'm annoyed with myself for not pushing him on quoting a fee. He's a friend of a friend, and I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt - even though I did ask him for a fee. I was told "not to worry about it. We can discuss that later."!

Anyhoo, thanks for the advice and info. Very much appreciated.

springchicken

Hi,
Does anyone know if it is possible to change plans completely once premission is granted. I am about to buy a site with premission but don't like the house at all and would like to change them?

Also will this cost much?

And if plans are refussed can I still build from the original plans?

Thanks

muffler

springchicken wrote: »

Hi,
Does anyone know if it is possible to change plans completely once premission is granted. I am about to buy a site with premission but don't like the house at all and would like to change them?

Yes, you can make an application for a change of house type. Just watch out that you fit the bill for whatever rural housing policy your local council have in force - thats assuming the site is in a rural location.

springchicken wrote: »

Also will this cost much?

Impossible to say. It will depend on the house design, who you engage and believe it or not what part of the country you are in.

springchicken wrote: »

And if plans are refussed can I still build from the original plans?

Yes, you can fall back on the originally approved plans in this situation.

gracem

Hi all,
Im from County Limerick and looking to build in here but planning is proving to be awkward. Limerick has high pressure areas and to build in these you must fulfill certain criteria i.e live in the area you wish to build in for over 20 years to name one condition..... The Coco has a map and the high pressure areas are in blue and the rest in green or red. From the map i can clearly see that the site i am interested in is outside the pressure area however because its close to the pressure area i was told the same rules apply.....

http://www.lcc.ie/NR/rdonlyres/578BE92D-E513-4A10-BA4D-977427338428/0/SettlementStrategyMap.jpg

Does anyone know anything about the rule... my thoughts would be if its outside the blue area its not in the pressure area and its ok to build on.


Thanks in advance

Hi folks, first post in her, I would appreciate some help. My sister owns her own little terraced city house and the one next door was recently sold. New owner is doing some work to it, total modernisation. Tonight he informed her he is extending the rear, the extension will be two story and will be immediately along the dividing wall, the back yards are not too big and this extension will block loads of light from the sisters yard. Anyway he told her he doesn't need planning permission and claimed as he isn't going to extend to the full length of the yard that this is a concession. Now this boils my p1ss as himself, his builder and some other chap presented this to my sister who while she was on her own as she was going in home after work today. From what I gather he needs planning permission.....

For most homeowners the only time you might need to apply for planning permission is when you want to extend. However it is not always necessary. The basic rule is that you can extend your property without planning permission once the extension (or total number of extensions) is less than 40 sq metres. To be exempt the extension must be at the back of the house and must be not less than 2 metres from any party boundary. Attic extensions may be exempt but if you want dormer windows or windows to the front or side of the roof then you must get planning. You can’t build an extension to the side of your house without planning permission but you can convert your garage to living accommodation without planning.
http://www.myhome.ie/residential/advice/buying/legal-planning/planning-permission-in-ireland-1798

As said folks this guy has seriously boiked my p1ss so I would like some advice on the experts, they have already the timber for the first floor or so in place.

Thanks in advance

Poor Uncle Tom

I think what you are looking for is this:

Column 1
Description of Development
Column 2
Conditions and Limitations

Development within the curtilage of a house

CLASS 1

The extension of a house, by the construction or erection of an extension (including a conservatory) to the rear of the house or by the conversion for use as part of the house of any garage, store, shed or other similar structure attached to the rear or to the side of the house.
1. (a) Where the house has not been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension shall not exceed 40 square metres.
(b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 12 square metres.
(c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached, the floor area of any extension above ground level shall not exceed 20 square metres.
2. (a) Where the house has been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 40 square metres.
(b) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is terraced or semi-detached and has been extended previously, the floor area of any extension above ground level taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions above ground level constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 12 square metres.
(c) Subject to paragraph (a), where the house is detached and has been extended previously, the floor area of any extension above ground level, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions above ground level constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 20 square metres.
3. Any above ground floor extension shall be a distance of not less than 2 metres from any party boundary.
4. (a) Where the rear wall of the house does not include a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the rear wall of the house.
(b) Where the rear wall of the house includes a gable, the height of the walls of any such extension shall not exceed the height of the side walls of the house.
(c) The height of the highest part of the roof of any such extension shall not exceed, in the case of a flat roofed extension, the height of the eaves or parapet, as may be appropriate, or, in any other case, shall not exceed the height of the highest part of the roof of the dwelling.
5. The construction or erection of any such extension to the rear of the house shall not reduce the area of private open space, reserved exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house, to the rear of the house to less than 25 square metres.
6. (a) Any window proposed at ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 1 metre from the boundary it faces.
(b) Any window proposed above ground level in any such extension shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it faces.
(c) Where the house is detached and the floor area of the extension above ground level exceeds 12 square metres, any window proposed at above ground level shall not be less than 11 metres from the boundary it faces.
7. The roof of any extension shall not be used as a balcony or roof garden.


As can be seen this is different from your version, in that paragraph 3 of column 2 refers to "any above ground floor extension".

Basically if you are not sure what is being done is an exempted development then you need to make a written complaint to the Enforcement Department of the LA.

muffler

RoverJames wrote: »

Hi folks, first post in her, I would appreciate some help. My sister owns her own little terraced city house and the one next door was recently sold. New owner is doing some work to it, total modernisation. Tonight he informed her he is extending the rear, the extension will be two story and will be immediately along the dividing wall, the back yards are not too big and this extension will block loads of light from the sisters yard. Anyway he told her he doesn't need planning permission and claimed as he isn't going to extend to the full length of the yard that this is a concession. Now this boils my p1ss as himself, his builder and some other chap presented this to my sister who while she was on her own as she was going in home after work today. From what I gather he needs planning permission.....

For most homeowners the only time you might need to apply for planning permission is when you want to extend. However it is not always necessary. The basic rule is that you can extend your property without planning permission once the extension (or total number of extensions) is less than 40 sq metres. To be exempt the extension must be at the back of the house and must be not less than 2 metres from any party boundary. Attic extensions may be exempt but if you want dormer windows or windows to the front or side of the roof then you must get planning. You can’t build an extension to the side of your house without planning permission but you can convert your garage to living accommodation without planning.
http://www.myhome.ie/residential/advice/buying/legal-planning/planning-permission-in-ireland-1798

As said folks this guy has seriously boiked my p1ss so I would like some advice on the experts, they have already the timber for the first floor or so in place.

Thanks in advance

More or less what you posted but here is a link to the actual legislation.

If you feel that it is not exempt then contact your local planning department and report it.

Bear in mind that your sister will have this guy for a neighbour so if its possible to settle it privately then all the better.