Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

Thank's folks Much appreciated. To be honest after his claim that no planning is required coupled with the concession malarly he was babbling me thinks he has set the tone of the neighbourly relationship, 'tis up to the sister of course.

springchicken

Thanks a mill Muffler, thats a great help!

Essexboy

Looking at latest plan for village. Objectives include "Reserve land to the west of the national school for community, sports and recreation, to facilitate the planned expansion of the school. The facilities on this site will be shared with residents of adjoining housing areas." (same as last plan!)

Great stuff BUT the Chair of the national school has been agitating for the school to be moved away from the village which would involve large-scale rezoning.

How can the local authority set out objectives for an institution when that institution obviously rejects them? For the record, I agree with the county council.

rayjdav

With all due respect to the chair of the school, it's not his/her decision to move. The Council must act/allow for the present circumstance, given that the Dev Plan will be there for the next few years. Until the school has actually up'd and gone, they must accommodate it and any possible future expansions. The dept of Education, along with Dept of Finance, will tell the board what is going to happen and when, not the other way around...
The Council is obliged to prepare the Plan in accordance with the Planning & Dev Act 2000 regardless.

adelcrowsmel

Does anyone know if you can find out the reasons given for planning permission being refused on a site that was submitted by someone else - or is this infomation not opening to the general public? I am looking into a site that was refused permission more than 15 years ago, and it would be great if I could find out why it was refused back then so that I know whether it is worth persuing - has the area changed enough in the meantime, etc...

sydthebeat

adelcrowsmel wrote: »

Does anyone know if you can find out the reasons given for planning permission being refused on a site that was submitted by someone else - or is this infomation not opening to the general public? I am looking into a site that was refused permission more than 15 years ago, and it would be great if I could find out why it was refused back then so that I know whether it is worth persuing - has the area changed enough in the meantime, etc...

adel....

a couple of points

1. a planning file is a public file. you need to go to the local authority and ask to see that file. some authorities only hold files back a certain number of years so you may have to order it to be brought up from storage.

2. the reasons for refusal should be included in this file

3. planning policies change all the time, so the policies implemented 15 years ago may be completely different now. generally, it has become harder to get permission, but in some cases it may be easier ie the status of the access road may have been downgraded due to a bypass etc. i certainly would advise engaging a local architect familiar with the site and local policies to review it for you and give their professional opinion.

adelcrowsmel

Thanks for that sydthebeat - I already looked it up on the County Council Online Planning system and it doesn't give the reasons for refusal - just that there were 3. So I'll have to contact the council directly then and see if I can see the file. I'd say that at the time that one of the reasons was the road as it was on a main road, but now it is on a cul-de-sac due to the delevopment of a motorway in the area in the last few years. But I'm hoping that none of the reasons are due to soil conditions or something like that. Thanks again for the info!!!

sydthebeat

adelcrowsmel wrote: »

Thanks for that sydthebeat - I already looked it up on the County Council Online Planning system and it doesn't give the reasons for refusal - just that there were 3. So I'll have to contact the council directly then and see if I can see the file. I'd say that at the time that one of the reasons was the road as it was on a main road, but now it is on a cul-de-sac due to the delevopment of a motorway in the area in the last few years. But I'm hoping that none of the reasons are due to soil conditions or something like that. Thanks again for the info!!!

no problem adel...

just on the soil condition issu... the test that has to be carried out is now different from the one carried out 15 years ago. So just because it was a fail then is not a guarantee that it will fail again.

also, its unlikely that any council would have back scanned 15 years worth of files.. the only way to see is to visit and see the actual file.

if its a rural site, make sure firstly that you can comply with the local need requirement.

Essexboy

rayjdav wrote: »

With all due respect to the chair of the school, it's not his/her decision to move. The Council must act/allow for the present circumstance, given that the Dev Plan will be there for the next few years. Until the school has actually up'd and gone, they must accommodate it and any possible future expansions. The dept of Education, along with Dept of Finance, will tell the board what is going to happen and when, not the other way around...
The Council is obliged to prepare the Plan in accordance with the Planning & Dev Act 2000 regardless.

The dept of Education, along with Dept of Finance, will tell the board what is going to happen

Good Point! thanks for reminding me. I was so annoyed with the underhand attempt to rezone land that I forgot that the Department calls the shots.

Gerard G

Don't know if anybody can advise.
Got planning for a new business I wish to open last year. One of the conditions states that the planning is only for a 2 year period and that I must reapply again at the end of the 2 years. This is to allow the Council to monitor the impact of the business on the local environment eg traffic impact, etc.
It will cost me €200k + to fit out the buiding ( the bulk of which will be borrowed ). When I approached my solicitor to draw up the neccessary documentation for the Bank I was informed that my p.p. was worthless and because of the condition he could not provide me or the Bank with a mortgageable title. Logically no Bank will lend money to a business that may be closed down after 2 years.
I have since been trying to have the planning condition removed but without any success. The planners don't seem to be able to grasp the impact of their actions.To date I have incurred substantial costs and it now seems I have reached a dead end.
In my experience the Planning Authorities are anti enterprise.
My architect, solicitor, etc are all astounded and have never come across a similar situation.
I don't know if any other posters may have had similar experiences and if there is any way of overcoming my problems. I am at my wits end - my life savings have gone into this project and it now seems as if I will be left with nothing to show for it.

muffler

Gerard G wrote: »

Don't know if anybody can advise.
Got planning for a new business I wish to open last year. One of the conditions states that the planning is only for a 2 year period and that I must reapply again at the end of the 2 years. This is to allow the Council to monitor the impact of the business on the local environment eg traffic impact, etc.
It will cost me €200k + to fit out the buiding ( the bulk of which will be borrowed ). When I approached my solicitor to draw up the neccessary documentation for the Bank I was informed that my p.p. was worthless and because of the condition he could not provide me or the Bank with a mortgageable title. Logically no Bank will lend money to a business that may be closed down after 2 years.
I have since been trying to have the planning condition removed but without any success. The planners don't seem to be able to grasp the impact of their actions.To date I have incurred substantial costs and it now seems I have reached a dead end.
In my experience the Planning Authorities are anti enterprise.
My architect, solicitor, etc are all astounded and have never come across a similar situation.
I don't know if any other posters may have had similar experiences and if there is any way of overcoming my problems. I am at my wits end - my life savings have gone into this project and it now seems as if I will be left with nothing to show for it.

Without knowing the details I would hazard a guess and say that you have been granted permission for a business which is located adjacent to or in the middle of a residential area. If that being the case I think you are lucky to have been granted a temporary permission.

Perhaps you should consider looking for something at an alternative location where the zoning is more favourable.

Gerard G

muffler wrote: »

Without knowing the details I would hazard a guess and say that you have been granted permission for a business which is located adjacent to or in the middle of a residential area. If that being the case I think you are lucky to have been granted a temporary permission.

Perhaps you should consider looking for something at an alternative location where the zoning is more favourable.

Thanks for the reply Muffler.
At this stage I don't want to go into too much detail. However the location was town centre and the zoning ( or local residents ) was not an issue. Also there were no objections to the planning application and the inclusion of the temporary condition came out of the blue.
I would have been much happier if I had been refused outright as I could then have gone the ABP route. I did not understand the implications of the planning condition ( until informed by my solicitor ) and incurred substantial expense subsequent to receiving planning ( my own fault I know ).
My main gripe with the Planners is
why grant temporary permission to any business when such p.p. excludes that business from accessing funding ( no mortgageable title ) ?
Maybe this was not such an issue in the past when it was easier to obtain Bank funding but in todays climate no bank will touch a business that only has temporary planning. There must be other people in a similar situation and I would love to know how or if they were able to overcome this problem.

Poor Uncle Tom

Gerard G wrote: »

I would have been much happier if I had been refused outright as I could then have gone the ABP route.

You could have gone the ABP route anyway and appealed that condition of planning permission.

Gerard G wrote: »

I did not understand the implications of the planning condition ( until informed by my solicitor ) and incurred substantial expense subsequent to receiving planning ( my own fault I know ).
My main gripe with the Planners is
why grant temporary permission to any business when such p.p. excludes that business from accessing funding ( no mortgageable title ) ?
Maybe this was not such an issue in the past when it was easier to obtain Bank funding but in todays climate no bank will touch a business that only has temporary planning. There must be other people in a similar situation and I would love to know how or if they were able to overcome this problem.

From what you say the planners uncertainty is based on what impact your business will have on the area or environment it is to be situated in. From this point of view I would meet up with the planners again and offer to carry out an EIA (Environmental Impact Assesment) for your business and this should alieviate any fears they have, or it might proove to you that this is the wrong location for that particular business. It isn't a cheap option but it could help set up the business in that the condition could be avoided.
Just a thought.

rayjdav

Would it not be possible for your agent to submit an application for duration of permission under Section 42 of the Act? There are a few bits in the legislation there that someone who is very familar with the Act and the process, may be able to produce a good argument for an extension or a modification to a permission.
But having said that, there usually is a valid reason why such stringent conditions would be attached to a permission. Maybe a meeting and agreement to carry out an EIS as stated above might be a good way to go. A few more details on the development type etc may yield more detailed response..

muffler

Yes, normally an application can be made to remove or amend a condition on a permission but as this is a temporary permission I dont know of any basis for making such an application and in any event any such application to amend/remove a condition would be tantamount to asking them to rescind the permission.

Poor Uncle Tom

Section 42 isn't an option here as Gerard G has stated he can't get funding to develop based on the restrictive condition in the first place.

Gerard G, why didn't you appeal the condition when you first got the planning permission?

Cat Melodeon

If you are a joint owner of a property (I inherited our family home along with 4 other siblings) is it likely to go against you when seeking PP for a new build in a rural area?

beyondpassive

It depends on the circumstances,

Are you looking for a replacement home, to take the place of the existing,
Are you building a new home, to facilitate taking over the farm/ business.
Are you a carer?
Are you defined as local needs?

or

Are you aiming for 4 new houses within a farmstead cluster
Or perhaps on the on the road frontage?

Gerard G

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Section 42 isn't an option here as Gerard G has stated he can't get funding to develop based on the restrictive condition in the first place.

Gerard G, why didn't you appeal the condition when you first got the planning permission?

Again thanks for peoples comments.
Before I applied for planning I attended a pre planning meeting where various issues were thrashed out and I subsequently met with the planning officials on site. I understood everything was satisfactory. I then applied for planning which I received 6 weeks later. There had been no objections and I did not receive any request for further information from the planners. When i received my planning I was delighted and I was not unduly concerned about the temporary condition as i did not realise it would pose such a problem.
I then set about putting the finance in place, applying for Fire Certs ( 4k approx ), getting detailed costings, etc. All this took a number of months. Eventually when I had arranged for the finance with my Bank I asked my Solicitor to put the neccessary legals in place and it was only then that I became aware of the implications of the Planning condition. At this stage I was too late to appeal to ABP. I would have to reapply for pp and then I could appeal the condition. I was told the appeal could take up to 12 months or more. By the time I would have gone this route my initial 2 years would have expired.
I am substantially out of pocket at this stage and an E.I.S. would cost a lot of money with no guarantee of ultimate success. Trying to start up my own business has cost me over 20k to date and I feel I have made no progress..
Some of this cost could have been avoided if the Planners had refused me outright instead of issuing a temporary planning which turns out to be worthless.

Poor Uncle Tom

It seems like you got the muddy end of the stick.

Since you have all the planning details done you could seek to make an identical application again at a reduced fee (reduced by 75%) and if it comes out the same take it to ABP. This can take as long as you say but the time of your permission will not start until ABP makes their decision.

Cat Melodeon

beyondpassive wrote: »

It depends on the circumstances,

Are you looking for a replacement home, to take the place of the existing,
Are you building a new home, to facilitate taking over the farm/ business.
Are you a carer?
Are you defined as local needs?

or

Are you aiming for 4 new houses within a farmstead cluster
Or perhaps on the on the road frontage?

The existing house that we jointly own is about 4km from the land/site where we want to build. We cannot buy the others out of the house for various reasons but want to remain in the area and have our own home. We can't afford a house in the area - prices do not seem to be coming down on the rare house that does come available in the area. We also jointly own the land on which the site is located. I'm not a carer. I would be classed local needs but not my husband (he's not local either & commutes, but maybe could telework if we had room for an office). I was born and raised here, my grandfather & father used to own the land.

The land is not a farm. It has been used for agricultural and commercial purposes in the past and currently is under grazing by an uncle. There is lapsed planning permission on the site from when my deceased parents were planning on moving there. It has good road access with an existing private road leading to the site (set back about 400m from the public road). It already has a gated entrance and used to have ESB.

There is definitely room for a cluster of houses on the site (there are no existing buildings). We are the only ones definitely interested in building right now, but other (younger) family members may want to build there as well in the future (small chance one would build at the same time as us). I'm not too concerned about them, we've all agreed it's first come first served but would def be building with an eye to being able to share access/services at a later date.

I'm just concerned that we will be considered house-owners even though we do not own our current house outright, pay rent on it and have to share it with other siblings. I know a pre-planning meeting should sort this out, but a heads-up on whether this will be a problem would be useful (we're still working on a brief).

amber2

If I go to our local planning office to view plans for a proposed dewlling to be build next to our PDH just wondering are they legible to the lay man or should I get an engineer and also it is possible to take away a copy. Thanks

DOCARCH

amber2 wrote: »

If I go to our local planning office to view plans for a proposed dewlling to be build next to our PDH just wondering are they legible to the lay man or should I get an engineer and also it is possible to take away a copy. Thanks

Being able to read drawings is somewhat subjective (I know of people who couldn't understnad a plan to save their lives!). Planning drawings should be fairly easy to follow.

You can purchase a copy of the planning application at the planning office. If you study the drawings and do not follow or understand what is being proposed, then you could ask a local architect, arch tech or engineer to run through them with you to see if there may be any issues relating to your property.

The Raven.

amber2 wrote: »

If I go to our local planning office to view plans for a proposed dewlling to be build next to our PDH just wondering are they legible to the lay man or should I get an engineer and also it is possible to take away a copy. Thanks

Amber, you could start by checking the plans online, and in that way you could take your time to study them. They should show the site layout and the elevations, which aren't difficult to understand. All you need to have is either the reference number of the application, or the name of the applicant, or the name of the area. After that, it would be wise to check if there are any other documents in the council planning office. Normally you can get photocopies of the documents for a small fee. Yes, it would also be wise to get professional advice in relation to how the development would affect your dwelling.

I don't know which county council is the one for your area and some of the councils have better websites than others. You would need to get on to it without delay as there is a deadline for objections, which can be seen online.

amber2

Thanks for your reply Docarch any idea how much they cost. Also does anyone know if the planning office in Cork is out by Dennehys Cross or is it in Carrigrohane Road. Thank you

amber2

Hi Raven Thanks a mill for your response, using Cork co co website have the planning ref but cant seem to find how to view the plans online, can view the application though. Any help appreicated.

The Raven.

amber2 wrote: »

Hi Raven Thanks a mill for your response, using Cork co co website have the planning ref but cant seem to find how to view the plans online, can view the application though. Any help appreicated.

Amber, if you want to PM me the reference number I can check it for you and find out what the problem is. It looks like a good website. Maybe you didn't allow the activeX to run or something like that.

amber2

The Raven. wrote: »

Amber, if you want to PM me the reference number I can check it for you and find out what the problem is. It looks like a good website. Maybe you didn't allow the activeX to run or something like that.

PM sent.

The Raven.

Amber, I'm afraid the Cork Co. Council website doesn't seem to have the facility for viewing the documents, which is a shame. Some of the websites don't. It looks like you will have to go to their planning office, which is at County Hall. I don't know where that is as I live in Co. Kildare.

The contact numbers are on the link below.

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Cork%20County%20Council/About%20Us/Contact%20Us

Thanks for the PM. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

amber2

Thanks for trying anyway Raven appreciate it.