Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

DOCARCH

amber2 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply Docarch any idea how much they cost. Also does anyone know if the planning office in Cork is out by Dennehys Cross or is it in Carrigrohane Road. Thank you

Each council has there own charge per page photocopied, depending on size, i.e. A4, A3, A2, etc. It is supposed to be 'reasonable', or at least thats what its says in the planning ad!

bold_defender

Hi,
I have house plans drawn and wanted to ask a few questions on what I need to have decided before applying.
These are question I will go through with my planner but I just wanted opinions as its a bit of a journey to meet him and need to take time off work etc and I want to have most of my research done beforehand.

We have decided on the room sizes, shape of house, roof. The internal floor plans have been agreed on and he then did full set of plans with elevations etc.
My initial questions are:

Do I need to have decided on all main external finishes before application, slate/tiles, type of ext door and windows, sizes of windows, wall finish and colour etc?

Do I need full structural details? Timber frame or block (will be timber but his initial elevations are block), wall widths if timber, distance between joists etc. Can I alter these depending on advice or need after planning?

Do I need to have specified space and water heating and insulation details? I am intending to make this house near passive, (don't think I'll manage passive) would I be best to get someone to run some calcs on it to advise me on windows sizes etc on to get an idea of sizing space heating and possibility of overheating in summer, and should this be done first?


Thanks in advance

rayjdav

Bold Defender,
External elevations really is all the Planner is concerned about
It would be advisable to have selected slates or tiles, wall finish too within reason. Re: Windows, technically what ever size ope is noted on the drawing is what planning is being granted for so this is important. Type of windows/doors can be noted as "select type window/door" and this leaves it open to you at construction stage.

Structural details are not required for planning. Makes no difference to the grant of permission what the house is actually constructed of..


It would be advisable to have as much homework done prior to lodging..

Just remember, if this is your offical Pre Planning meeting, make sure that you get a minutes of the meeting from the council. Very important to lodge this with your application. But honestly, whatever is agreed in this meeting, just be aware, there is a good chance that the Planner in question WILL change their mind...:mad::mad::mad: Law onto themselves and dont have to justify decisions....
Best of luck anyway.

BenK

bold_defender wrote: »

Hi,
I have house plans drawn and wanted to ask a few questions on what I need to have decided before applying.
These are question I will go through with my planner but I just wanted opinions as its a bit of a journey to meet him and need to take time off work etc and I want to have most of my research done beforehand.

We have decided on the room sizes, shape of house, roof. The internal floor plans have been agreed on and he then did full set of plans with elevations etc.
My initial questions are:

Do I need to have decided on all main external finishes before application, slate/tiles, type of ext door and windows, sizes of windows, wall finish and colour etc?

Do I need full structural details? Timber frame or block (will be timber but his initial elevations are block), wall widths if timber, distance between joists etc. Can I alter these depending on advice or need after planning?

Do I need to have specified space and water heating and insulation details? I am intending to make this house near passive, (don't think I'll manage passive) would I be best to get someone to run some calcs on it to advise me on windows sizes etc on to get an idea of sizing space heating and possibility of overheating in summer, and should this be done first?


Thanks in advance

I am presuming you have scheduled a pre-planning meeting and that you have used an architect/technician/engineer to draw up your plans to this point? If you are using a professional I would recommend that he/she goes with you to discuss all the issues with the planner and that they complete the application for submission to the council. They should know what information to include on your drawings for the planning application.

In general though, for planning, it's not necessary to have structural details resolved. Space and water heating and insulation details are also generally not required (obviously they should be considered at the earliest possible stage however). In relation to the timber stud/block I'm not sure what you intend doing. With a timber frame house usually the external wall will still be of block work, it's only the internal wall that is timber stud. Distance between joists is not required for planning. Wall widths should be shown on plan, however, after planning there is scope for these to change as long as the external outline of the building doesn't change. Bear in mind a change in wall widths can also effect the size of the rooms (usually only slightly but worth noting anyway).

Generally, for planning, what you will need to show on your elevations is the external finishes and materials (i.e. roof and wall finishes, rainwater system, glazing and door types etc.), floor levels, ridge and eaves heights and so on. Your county council should have more information on their website on what should be included on all the drawings but again whoever is preparing your application (if anyone?) should be aware of exactly what's needed.

In relation to the passive house side of things, it would be pretty crucial that you get someone with the necessary expertise to have a look at your proposed house as early as possible so that any important suggestions/improvements they may have can be incorporated into the drawings prior to planning. It can be messy trying resolve these things after planning (I'm thinking about the orientation of the house and glazing to maximise solar gains and so on). Hope that helps. To finish I would strongly advise retaining (or obtaining...) a competent professional (architect/architectural technician) to complete your planning application. It should help everything rum smoother.

bold_defender

Thanks guys,
I have professional who has spent a good deal of time working with us and has drawn up the plans for us. He is based in NI and has worked on my sister’s house and was recommended after we had another architect basically photocopy a few other people’s plans and sent us home to see what one we would like to use.

He has worked with planners in south and has spoken to them about our plans/site (we had planning for a 2 story on this site which expired 12 months ago).
Is the pre planning meeting compulsory? I think our designer will probably say we won't need it as he knows the planners in the office and what is required. He was very successful is getting changes through in NI planning office for my sister when PPS14 was in place and planning was very tight.

I think you have answered my other questions.

Would is be possible to get a recommendation from anyone (PM me) for someone who can look at plans and advise on solar gain and orientation as I'd like someone to check the window sizes. The same firm would also be able to do space heating and insulation calcs too. I have one firm in mind but a personal recommendation is always good.

Thanks

DOCARCH

Quick exempt development question:

Existing two storey, semi-detached house. Over the years, the follwoing was added (by grant of planning permission) - a porch to the front (4m.sq.), a garage to the side (40m.sq.) and a single storey extension to the rear (17m.sq.).

I am now looking at converting 14m.sq. of the existing garage to habitable acommodation (i.e. extending the existing house into the existing garage). There will be no changes of alterations to the front elevations, as the proposed 'extension' would be within the existing structure (to the rear).

Any opinions on whether this extension into the garage would be consdiered exempt or why it might not be? I am considering going for a declaration on this.

Poor Uncle Tom

From the information you have given I would say it is an exempted development under conversion of garage under 25m2.

DOCARCH

Thanks PUT, I figure it is myself, was just really asking to double check.

Builderfromhell

There was a Hotel owner being interviewed on 'Joe Duffy' today and he complained that he had been fined by his local council for having a sandwich board outside his premises, on the pavement, advertising his lunch. seemingly he needed planning permission for the sign.

Does anyone know what are the planning regs. about foldable/collapsable signs on the pavement. Why do planning care or is it that you need insurance for them?

gman2k

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Why do planning care or is it that you need insurance for them?

Because it's all about revenue - milking businesses dry.

rayjdav

Noactually planning permission. Falls under Section 254 of the Planning Act. It's a licence that is required.

bobbygoldstar

is planning required for the extension on the attached drawings. Its a first floor extension over an existing kitchenette, which is part of the original semi detached dormer bungalow. The new bedroom at first floor will be 16sqm but the actual extension over the kitchenette is 8sqm the rest of the 'new' bedroom is the existing attic void.
As the attic void is not deemed habital space I think it needs planning but my client and his builder thinks it exempt. About to apply for an exemption cert, just curious to hear your expert opinion.
ps there are no other houses to the rear of the house

DOCARCH

First question would be how close is boundary to side (left side looking at drawings) - needs to be in excess of 2m to be exempt (for a first floor extension) - and secondly how far will new first floor window to rear be from the rear boundary - needs to be in excess of 11m (whether or not there are houses to the rear).

Having said/asked the above, I really think you may or will fall foul on the area issue - I very much doubt planners will take into account the 8m.sq. of existing (non-habitable) attic void and will simply see this as a 16m.sq. first floor extension and because house is semi-detached will therefore the proposal will not be exempt.

bobbygoldstar

dicarch,
thanks for getting back to me. The boundary between the two houses is only 1m so planning is required.

henryporter

bobbygoldstar wrote: »

is planning required for the extension on the attached drawings. Its a first floor extension over an existing kitchenette, which is part of the original semi detached dormer bungalow. The new bedroom at first floor will be 16sqm but the actual extension over the kitchenette is 8sqm the rest of the 'new' bedroom is the existing attic void.
As the attic void is not deemed habital space I think it needs planning but my client and his builder thinks it exempt. About to apply for an exemption cert, just curious to hear your expert opinion.
ps there are no other houses to the rear of the house

Thats very clever - a PDF with layers!

DOCARCH

To avoid confusion - sorry meant to say in post above boundary to the left hand side looking at the drawings (have now edited).

Exempt development regulations say that external walls of a first floor extension (to be built as an exempt development) must be minimum of 2m from any boundary.

muffler

bobbygoldstar wrote: »

is planning required for the extension on the attached drawings. Its a first floor extension over an existing kitchenette, which is part of the original semi detached dormer bungalow. The new bedroom at first floor will be 16sqm but the actual extension over the kitchenette is 8sqm the rest of the 'new' bedroom is the existing attic void.
As the attic void is not deemed habital space I think it needs planning but my client and his builder thinks it exempt. About to apply for an exemption cert, just curious to hear your expert opinion.
ps there are no other houses to the rear of the house

The following condition will answer your query

for terraced or semi-detached houses, the floor area of any extension above ground level does not exceed 12 square metres, this includes any previous extensions carried out

Source

zelemon

Can anyone out there please tell how many applications were lodged in the past 12 months in IReland & how many were refused? Is this information publically available & if so where, thanks so much for your time!

muffler

zelemon wrote: »

Can anyone out there please tell how many applications were lodged in the past 12 months in IReland & how many were refused? Is this information publically available & if so where, thanks so much for your time!

The CSO may have some stats but from the details on this page it appears that the 2008 stats are the latest available.

Conman1

If you look up performance indicators for local authorities on the web you should get some results. These are measured for various services delivered. Bear in mind, however , that results for applications granted as opposed to refused can be skewed as some LA's will get applicants to withdraw applications rather than be seen to refuse planning.

cc2010

Hi all,

First time poster and the Boards website has been a big help to me so far...hopefully someone can offer some good advice here!

Had planning in for a house a few months ago. Got unofficial word that it was going to be refused as the Wastewater & Drainage Dept said that the wastewater treatment system and percolation area were 50m from a river that (eventually) finds its way to a reservoir. Drainage Dept applied a Local Area Plan which said we had to be min 100m from the river, and we withdrew the application.

However we are completely outside the area of that LAP. In the absence of a LAP their own County Development Plan (ie the bible!) states that people applying for planning should abide by EPA guidelines, therefore we need to be just 10m from the river. I called the EPA and they confirmed this. As mentioned, we're 50m.

We met the very helpful planner a few weeks ago and he admitted that it looked like they had made an error on the maps and that the LAP should not be applied to us. I called the Drainage Dept yesterday (courtesy call to let them know to expect the application again) and was told that even though they know that the LAP doesnt apply, nevertheless they still want to apply its regulations to us.

Surely they cant do this, even if they'd like to? We've adhered exactly to their guidelines as laid out in their own County Dev. Plan, and also the EPA guidelines. To the letter of the law. The county planner knows this and is happy that everything is in order, but it seems that the drainage engineer is trying to move the goalposts a little I think.

I plan on meeting the engineer but he's told me he's not accepting less than 100m minimum separation, which we cant really achieve. I think if he is so adamant on the issue, why was it not addressed on the new Co. Dev Plan which was brought out just this year?

And I know that some counties have a minimum seperation which is 60m or 100m in a case like this, but its clearly stated on their Co. Dev. Plan and you know what to expect when you are applying.

I dont want to go down the road of appealing to An Bord Pleanala down the line, but I think we'd have a decent chance of success as surely they'd see that we're ticking all the boxes as per Co. Dev. Plan. Although you never know..

Any thoughts on the situation would be very welcome.

Thanks..

indirestraits

Hi, I'm hoping someone can give me advice on this, bought site with derelict house on it in the Munster area. It failed percolation test. Has anyone had this problem and what is the best way to solve it? Thanks so much...

Supertech

Depends on the nature of the test fail. What was the reason for the failure ? Has the person who carried out the test for you not given you any advice as regards remedial measures which might be carried out to improve the site suitability ?

Builderfromhell

indirestraits wrote: »

Hi, I'm hoping someone can give me advice on this, bought site with derelict house on it in the Munster area. It failed percolation test. Has anyone had this problem and what is the best way to solve it? Thanks so much...

Not a simple question to answer without seeing test report. If you got a registered Site assesor to do the report then they should have explored all the possible options for achieving adequate water treatment.
It is my understanding that in renovating an existing habitable house you are required to improve the existing waste water treatment as advised by the site assessor. You may not be able to achieve EPA standards but be able to improve what is there.
If, however, you are proposing to build a new house you will be required to comply with EPA guidelines in full.

De.Lite.Touch

cc2010 wrote: »

(snip)

I plan on meeting the engineer but he's told me he's not accepting less than 100m minimum separation, which we cant really achieve. I think if he is so adamant on the issue, why was it not addressed on the new Co. Dev Plan which was brought out just this year?

(snip)

I dont want to go down the road of appealing to An Bord Pleanala down the line, but I think we'd have a decent chance of success as surely they'd see that we're ticking all the boxes as per Co. Dev. Plan. Although you never know..

Any thoughts on the situation would be very welcome.

Thanks..

In a fight between the Council and you the Council will win.

But you could put in a very good treatment system - a <snip>.
I'm not emlpoyed by them, but I know people who it got out of a bind.

Don't be afraid of Appeals - unless this is in Galway, after the publiciy last year about the water.

De.Lite.Touch

Mod Edit: the forum charter does not allow us to mention specific companies on thread.

De.Lite.Touch

DOCARCH wrote: »

To avoid confusion - sorry meant to say in post above boundary to the left hand side looking at the drawings (have now edited).

Exempt development regulations say that external walls of a first floor extension (to be built as an exempt development) must be minimum of 2m from any boundary.

Means you can't extend a long a party wall at first floor without permission, doesn't it?

De.Lite.Touch

De.Lite.Touch

henryporter wrote: »

Thats very clever - a PDF with layers!

Really clever - the names seem funny though.

And the bits that turn on and off don't seem to be on the name, not all of them, like "hatch", say.

De.Lite.Touch

indirestraits

thanks so much for getting back to me
spoke to assessor -was no help just said council will not let me build a new house .he has no idea what i can do now. i asked if i could improve the ground but sure he did not know he said. the house on the site is old but there is a septic tank i would gladly do up the old house but am afraid the soak hole is a big problem for me . the assessor made no suggestion and i am in a right fix now. what can i do .any suggestions ?

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Not a simple question to answer without seeing test report. If you got a registered Site assesor to do the report then they should have explored all the possible options for achieving adequate water treatment.
It is my understanding that in renovating an existing habitable house you are required to improve the existing waste water treatment as advised by the site assessor. You may not be able to achieve EPA standards but be able to improve what is there.
If, however, you are proposing to build a new house you will be required to comply with EPA guidelines in full.

Poor Uncle Tom

indirestraits wrote: »

thanks so much for getting back to me
spoke to assessor -was no help just said council will not let me build a new house .he has no idea what i can do now. i asked if i could improve the ground but sure he did not know he said. the house on the site is old but there is a septic tank i would gladly do up the old house but am afraid the soak hole is a big problem for me . the assessor made no suggestion and i am in a right fix now. what can i do .any suggestions ?

It sounds like the assesor is not doing their job. Get a copy of the report (if you are paying for it, you are entitled to it) and ask around for the name of a good reputable assesor, meet them on site and discuss your options.

indirestraits

Thanks for geting back to me
the assesor gave me a copy of the report he said he did the test for a new house not for the existing one he had no advice at all just said the council will not pass it for a new house. All i want is advice about doing something with the ground and so far i have drawn a blank if ican't get it sorted i am stuck with it .i did pay him and he did send the report to the council . there has to be something i can do.
thanks again for your help

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Not a simple question to answer without seeing test report. If you got a registered Site assesor to do the report then they should have explored all the possible options for achieving adequate water treatment.
It is my understanding that in renovating an existing habitable house you are required to improve the existing waste water treatment as advised by the site assessor. You may not be able to achieve EPA standards but be able to improve what is there.
If, however, you are proposing to build a new house you will be required to comply with EPA guidelines in full.