Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

Mellor

In my opinion plannign is required for external cladding, certainly for a terraced* and semi-d housing (detached is another matter imo)
I don't think that it being proud of its neighbours is a bigg deal as long as its finished well. It probably is likely to be granted as long as they aren't listed, and that the final finish is similar to the existing.



*You said semi-d's but what you describe, ie houses in a row, standing out from it's neighbours, is terraced houses.

will3001

rayjdav wrote: »

Will,
The repositioning and decommissioning of the the existing septic tank is allowable, more than likely on the promise that it will HAVE TO BE contained within the curtilage of the existing "old" site, ie in the red cross hatch site to the west. Unlikely that the council will allow shared use of lands for this purpose. The new site percolation area will obviously have had, and passed?? the EPA test, as councils dont usually let the old SR6:1991 test go through anymore. This will have to take account of many factors, including your well (if any). Have a look at the planning file and satisfy yourself that all as noted is correct. If you dont understand the file, well worth hiring a local AT to do it for you...

As RKQ said, if you could scan a site plan it would let us have more additional info to offer you.

Without dimensions, on first look, I cant see how loss of privacy/light could be valid arguments..?? There appears to be mature planting/trees to the boundary presently.

Re the entrance, council may be more favourable towards a shared entrance between existing/new site, depending on the catagory of the road, National/Regional/Local.

Also, from scan, sightlines would appear to be available, once again depending on road status.

What would you see as your main concerns regarding this development?
Is it possible to discuss with applicant, as you are neighbours in a rural setting. Seen this before and when application granted and built, very bad feeling between neighbours for eternity:eek:

Hi there,

There is a row of trees but they are not that high. They sit on a ditch elevated from our position as the adjoining site is elevated. The ground level of the new build will be at approx 3-4 feet above the ground level of our house and hence blocking light. Growing a higher treeline would be dangerous to our house since there would be a risk of damage if the trees fell. Also light and privacy would be issues for me on this fact.

Our neighbour called to say he was digging holes to look for precolation as his son was building a house there. That was as much consultation as we got.

The percolation are for the new build will be at a level above the ground level of our house, I'd be concerned about lateral seepage.

will3001

Folks,

Just by way of education can anyone point me to the most recent document for standards and requirements for percolation areas, spetic tanks etc. I'm assuming its on the EPA site somewhere.

taWill.

Jimbo

will3001 wrote: »

Folks,

Just by way of education can anyone point me to the most recent document for standards and requirements for percolation areas, spetic tanks etc. I'm assuming its on the EPA site somewhere.

taWill.

This is the current Code of Practice which came into force at the start of the year:
http://www.epa.ie/whatwedo/advice/wastewater/

antiskeptic

Mellor wrote: »

In my opinion plannign is required for external cladding, certainly for a terraced* and semi-d housing (detached is another matter imo)
I don't think that it being proud of its neighbours is a bigg deal as long as its finished well. It probably is likely to be granted as long as they aren't listed, and that the final finish is similar to the existing.



*You said semi-d's but what you describe, ie houses in a row, standing out from it's neighbours, is terraced houses.

Thanks Mellor.

The road is named "X Terrace" but consists of (say) 10 houses in semi-d format. The clad building stands proud of all it's neighbours (seeing as they stand in a row) with it difference being very marked, naturally, when it comes to the attached neighbour.

I stand amazed at the idea that planning could be given for such a thing. You could have attractive (if unlisted) terraces and rows of semi-d's throughout the land disfigured by one-off external cladding jobs

Then again, in a country that permits buildings to be clad in plastic stone..

Mellor

What makes it unattractive?

antiskeptic

Mellor wrote: »

What makes it unattractive?

The stepped out facade.

Imagine a 20 unit row of 100 year old terraced houses where houses 3,5,9,10,14 and 19 have their facades stepped 4 inches out of line due to the addition of external insulation.

I'd be somewhat dubious of attempts at replicating surface finishes and window reveals too. Could we really expect a 100 year old concrete rendered facade with yellow brick reveal to be replicated with any degree of success? Add such attempts to a previously-uniform-now-randomly-castellated terrace and you have my definition of unattractive.

Mellor

I'm not talking about a make believe terrace,
or a 100 year old concrete?? render facade, which wouldn't get planning imo.

Also, I'm talking about a semi D. With one stepped joint.
Also, saying thats its steped out from its non attached neighbour is being pedantic, its barely noticable, and quite common for non attached neighbours to be in a slightly different position anyway.

You also mention the finish was dashed, this is even less of an issue. TBH you are describing the hosue very poorly, refering to terraces, various finishes etc.

There are plenty of cases where it is fine, there are plenty of cases where it clearly isn't. Based on what you ahve said, it could be either.

jhardy

Hi all

This is my first post here, I have a couple of questions about some extension work we're having done at the minute, hopefully someone will know

1. The rear extension which is less than 40sqm, so exempted development, is built about 50-70cm away from the neighbours property, and actually gets further away (upto 1m) at the end of the extension due to the orientation of the houses. The architect says we need a parapet wall for fire prevention and run-off water reasons, even though it does not abut the neightbours property. Now normally I would listen to the architect, but the builder is adamant we don't, and the architect can be a bit quirky on a few issues. I've looked through any documents I could find from South Dublin County Council, and can't find anything about that. Obviously building the wall will be slightly uglier and certainly more expensive. What are your thoughts?

2. We're also having a dormer/attic conversion done and have the planning permission granted for that. The decision date is listed as 05/11/2010, and the proposed development date is listed as 16/11/2010. However, the architect says there is a 4 week "cooling off" period that we need to wait before commencing any work, so anyone can lodge a formal objection. Is this correct? What are the penalties for commencing work before the 4 weeks are up, if indeed that is the law, and what is the likelyhood of getting caught?

3. Last one all.. the council are after asking us to pay around €1,800 for the honour of being granted planning permission. The reasons they state on the document are quite confusingly worded...

"The developer shall pay to the planning authority a financial contribution of €1,800 in respect of public infrastructure and facilities benefitting development within the area of the planning authority that is provided or intended to be provided by or on behalf of the authority in accordance with the terms of the Development Contribution Scheme made under Section 48 of the Planning and Development Act 2000"

.. is this right??!!! Does it mean they charging us for the use of the roads to get deliveries or the air the builders are breathing? I'll be honest it sounds like utter bollocks to me, and I'm very loathed to pay it. Any thoughts much appreicated.

That's it, thanks for reading

muffler

jhardy wrote: »

1. The rear extension which is less than 40sqm, so exempted development, is built about 50-70cm away from the neighbours property, and actually gets further away (upto 1m) at the end of the extension due to the orientation of the houses. The architect says we need a parapet wall for fire prevention and run-off water reasons, even though it does not abut the neightbours property. Now normally I would listen to the architect, but the builder is adamant we don't, and the architect can be a bit quirky on a few issues. I've looked through any documents I could find from South Dublin County Council, and can't find anything about that. Obviously building the wall will be slightly uglier and certainly more expensive. What are your thoughts?

Im not sure if you are referring to a parapet wall at the end of the roof or a boundary wall separating the 2 properties. Either way I haven't come across this before but then again there may be by-laws which are applicable or it could be a requirement of the development plan. Someone more familiar with that PA will advise you better than me.

Just to point out that your extension is only exempt if windows on ground floor are a minimum of 1 metre from the boundary.

jhardy wrote: »

2. We're also having a dormer/attic conversion done and have the planning permission granted for that. The decision date is listed as 05/11/2010, and the proposed development date is listed as 16/11/2010. However, the architect says there is a 4 week "cooling off" period that we need to wait before commencing any work, so anyone can lodge a formal objection. Is this correct?

Its not a cooling off period but a statutory period of time in which you or other parties have to appeal the Council's decision. If there are no appeals after 28 days then the Council will issue the FINAL GRANT of permission. After that you then have to lodge a commencement notice to the building control department giving them 14 - 28 days notice of your intention to commence works.

jhardy wrote: »

What are the penalties for commencing work before the 4 weeks are up, if indeed that is the law, and what is the likelyhood of getting caught?

Yes the penalties can be severe. As you are new here I'll pretend I didnt see the above comment. Please read the forum charter before you post again and then post in accordance with said charter.

jhardy wrote: »

3. Last one all.. the council are after asking us to pay around €1,800 for the honour of being granted planning permission. The reasons they state on the document are quite confusingly worded...

"The developer shall pay to the planning authority a financial contribution of €1,800 in respect of public infrastructure and facilities benefitting development within the area of the planning authority that is provided or intended to be provided by or on behalf of the authority in accordance with the terms of the Development Contribution Scheme made under Section 48 of the Planning and Development Act 2000"

.. is this right??!!! Does it mean they charging us for the use of the roads to get deliveries or the air the builders are breathing? I'll be honest it sounds like utter bollocks to me, and I'm very loathed to pay it. Any thoughts much appreicated.

Yes it is most likely correct. Every Co. Council has a development contribution scheme which applies to all developments. However there are quite a few councils who also impose contributions in respect of renovations/extensions and I think I read here recently that South Dublin Co. Council was one of those.



.

jhardy

Hi muffler, thanks for your reply

Im not sure if you are referring to a parapet wall at the end of the roof or a boundary wall separating the 2 properties. Either way I haven't come across this before but then again there may be by-laws which are applicable or it could be a requirement of the development plan. Someone more familiar with that PA will advise you better than me.

The parapet is on the boundary wall, but the wall isn't directly abutting the boundary line.

Just to point out that your extension is only exempt if windows on ground floor are a minimum of 1 metre from the boundary.

There are no windows on that side of the extension, only a skylight which will be well set back from the edge of the roof/wall join.

If there are no appeals after 28 days then the Council will issue the FINAL GRANT of permission.

This is copied from the council website regarding the permission application..

Decision Details:
Decision Date: 05/11/2010
Decision: GRANT PERMISSION


Does that mean we don't actually have FINAL permission yet as you say?

As you are new here I'll pretend I didnt see the above comment.

Nuff said, thanks for the info

Yes it is most likely correct. Every Co. Council has a development contribution scheme which applies to all developments.

Have you heard of the contributions being that high for a relatively small development permission application? Is it worth disputing it? The architect seems to think it could be nonsense and worth arguing.

Thanks again for getting back so quickly.

muffler

jhardy wrote: »

The parapet is on the boundary wall, but the wall isn't directly abutting the boundary line.

Sorry, but Im lost on that.

jhardy wrote: »

This is copied from the council website regarding the permission application..

Decision Details:
Decision Date: 05/11/2010
Decision: GRANT PERMISSION


Does that mean we don't actually have FINAL permission yet as you say?

No you dont have the final grant of permission. As explained above you have the Council's decision to grant. If there are no appeals within 28 days of the decision date then the Final Grant of permission will be issued.

jhardy wrote: »

Have you heard of the contributions being that high for a relatively small development permission application? Is it worth disputing it? The architect seems to think it could be nonsense and worth arguing.

Im not familiar with South Dublin Co. Council's development contribution scheme but its most likely available to view online. If not you could pop into their offices and ask to see a list of the charges.

LoTwan

jhardy wrote: »

Have you heard of the contributions being that high for a relatively small development permission application? Is it worth disputing it? The architect seems to think it could be nonsense and worth arguing.

While €1,800 seems quite big for such a small job consider that extensions/new builds in some counties incur charges up to (and some times over) €15,000.

You can dispute it if you want to but you will probably find that it is a case of "Don't pay the bill = don't get the final grant"

rayjdav

jhardy wrote: »

Have you heard of the contributions being that high for a relatively small development permission application? Is it worth disputing it? The architect seems to think it could be nonsense and worth arguing.

Re the contributions, as part of the Planning Act, most councils apply to ALL developments now.

Where your architect says that they may be worth arguing, I assume you men appealling to An Bord Pleanala.????

I assume your Architect is aware of the Planning Act? If so, he should know that you CANNOT appeal development contributions, save that they are supplementary or special contributions. From the text you added above your contribution is neither of these so, unfortunately for you, if you want to still build you will have to pay it.

Be aware, a lot of Planning Staff have being redeployed to other internal departments in the council offices, because of lack of incoming applications, a lot have being moved to enforcement sections. This is relevant because it is basically from here that they are now chasing outstanding issues relating to grants of permission as built, including Development Contributions..:eek:

Mellor

jhardy wrote: »

This is copied from the council website regarding the permission application..

Decision Details:
Decision Date: 05/11/2010
Decision: GRANT PERMISSION


Does that mean we don't actually have FINAL permission yet as you say?

That means that they have decide that they will grant permission. (not that permission is now granted). As long as there are no objections you''ll get the letter soon. Your architect should of explained this a lot better than "cooling-off period).

He isn't correct about the parapet. For fire or water reasons. I've dont a bit of work in SDCC and the only time I've ever insisted on a parapet was when building on or beside the boundary, this was so the gutter doesn't overhand.
FYI, unless new by-laws came into effect in the last 24months, but I imagine these would be listed on the conditions of the application.

rayjdav wrote:

Where your architect says that they may be worth arguing, I assume you men appealling to An Bord Pleanala.????

ABP is nothing to do with contributions. What so ever

I assume your Architect is aware of the Planning Act? If so, he should know that you CANNOT appeal development contributions, save that they are supplementary or special contributions. From the text you added above your contribution is neither of these so, unfortunately for you, if you want to still build you will have to pay it.

Not quite actually.
While he can't appeal, he can request a breakdown, which details various area the money will be spend. Often, by requesting this breakdown, an error is uncovered and the applicant's fee reduced.
I'd use the words query rather than argue in my letter mind

jhardy

Thanks to everyone for your replies,

muffler :cool:
Mellor :cool:
LoTwan :cool:
rayjdav :cool:

the info is much appreciated.

rayjdav

Mellor wrote: »

ABP is nothing to do with contributions. What so ever

Mellor, well aware of that.

In context, I was asking if, on the assumption that the contributions as levied are correct, the Architect meant that jhardy could "query"/appeal them, the only course of appeal being ABP, which I went on to explain, as per the Act, that this is not possible.

Mellor

rayjdav wrote: »

Mellor, well aware of that.

In context, I was asking if, on the assumption that the contributions as levied are correct, the Architect meant that jhardy could "query"/appeal them, the only course of appeal being ABP, which I went on to explain, as per the Act, that this is not possible.

And I was explaining that it is possible, and that ABP isn't by any means "the only course of appeal"

Joey the lips

Hi Folks

My sister wants to build a garden wall. When they moved into there house there was talk of the estate being "open plan" however there was no document signed to say this. Half the estate has walls that were built by the builder and half does not.

We found this on the meath county council website.

Can I erect walls, fences and gates?
Capped walls made of brick, stone or block with a decorative finish, railings and wooden fences, but not a
metal palisade or security fences, can be erected as long as they do not exceed 1.2 metres in height in front of your house or 2 metres at the side or rear. If the wall is made of plain blocks or mass concrete it must be rendered or plastered. Gates and gateways may be built or replaced providing they do not exceed 2 metres in height. You will need planning permission if you wish to make a new or wider access to the public road.


Does anyone know what an open plan estate is and does the open plan last forever.

If building a wall can you build it on the boundry line or must you build it behind it.If it was built on the line it would fall in better with the dividing wall between the houses. This is why we ask.

Thank you

Poor Uncle Tom

Joey the lips wrote: »

Hi Folks

My sister wants to build a garden wall. When they moved into there house there was talk of the estate being "open plan" however there was no document signed to say this. Half the estate has walls that were built by the builder and half does not.

We found this on the meath county council website.

Can I erect walls, fences and gates?
Capped walls made of brick, stone or block with a decorative finish, railings and wooden fences, but not a
metal palisade or security fences, can be erected as long as they do not exceed 1.2 metres in height in front of your house or 2 metres at the side or rear. If the wall is made of plain blocks or mass concrete it must be rendered or plastered. Gates and gateways may be built or replaced providing they do not exceed 2 metres in height. You will need planning permission if you wish to make a new or wider access to the public road.


Does anyone know what an open plan estate is and does the open plan last forever.

Open Plan estate usually does not have front gardens walled in, however the side divisions and rear boundaries are usually constructed.

Joey the lips wrote: »

If building a wall can you build it on the boundry line

Yes, if you have the permission of the neighbour on that particular side, as it becomes their boundary wall also.

Joey the lips wrote: »

or must you build it behind it.

Only if you can't get your neighbours permission to build it or if you want to keep the wall 100% in your ownership.

Joey the lips wrote: »

If it was built on the line it would fall in better with the dividing wall between the houses. This is why we ask.

Thank you

Obviously it would be best on the boundary, and you might be able to get something from the neighbour towards the construction cost.

Joey the lips

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Open Plan estate usually does not have front gardens walled in, however the side divisions and rear boundaries are usually constructed.


Yes, if you have the permission of the neighbour on that particular side, as it becomes their boundary wall also.


Only if you can't get your neighbours permission to build it or if you want to keep the wall 100% in your ownership.

Obviously it would be best on the boundary, and you might be able to get something from the neighbour towards the construction cost.

Right tom I cant do that thing yet where you break up the post so i will deal with it in numbers.

So if half the estate has walls chances are its not an open plan estate.

If you get permission from the neighbour to build on the boundry line you can. Must this be in writeing or is it assumed after a period of time that permission is granted. The reason i ask is. No doubt they will ask permission but who is to say after 5 years they dont object.

I understand about building behind the boundry...Thanks I dont think she cares about money but noted...

Poor Uncle Tom

Joey the lips wrote: »

If you get permission from the neighbour to build on the boundry line you can. Must this be in writeing or is it assumed after a period of time that permission is granted. The reason i ask is. No doubt they will ask permission but who is to say after 5 years they dont object....

It would be better in writing and it would be prudent to get an engineer to mark the boundary first that is agreeable to both parties.

muffler

Joey the lips wrote: »

Hi Folks

My sister wants to build a garden wall. When they moved into there house there was talk of the estate being "open plan" however there was no document signed to say this. Half the estate has walls that were built by the builder and half does not.

We found this on the meath county council website.

Can I erect walls, fences and gates?
Capped walls made of brick, stone or block with a decorative finish, railings and wooden fences, but not a
metal palisade or security fences, can be erected as long as they do not exceed 1.2 metres in height in front of your house or 2 metres at the side or rear. If the wall is made of plain blocks or mass concrete it must be rendered or plastered. Gates and gateways may be built or replaced providing they do not exceed 2 metres in height. You will need planning permission if you wish to make a new or wider access to the public road.


Does anyone know what an open plan estate is and does the open plan last forever.

If building a wall can you build it on the boundry line or must you build it behind it.If it was built on the line it would fall in better with the dividing wall between the houses. This is why we ask.

Thank you

I think Poor Uncle Tom (and he isn't poor btw ) pretty much summed up the situation. As stated if you intend to build on the boundary line then you will need the neighbours consent, preferably in writing but even verbally would do although you may be well advised to have a third party there for the verbal consent.

Just to point out that the building of walls to a certain height is part of a group of exempted developments which basically means that there are certain things you can do around the home that don't require planning permission. However all these exemptions carry little caveats one of which states that a particular proposal is only exempt providing it does not breach a condition of a planning permission.

You should check the permission granted for the houses to ensure that there are no conditions which prohibit the building of walls. In saying all that you can of course apply for planning permission for it if it was going to be in breach of a planning condition.

uptowngirly

Hi everyone!!

So - I feel like I know you all! I've been a long-time stalker on the construction and planning forum but this is my first time posting! I've decided that instead of going "please someone ask about...." and actually bite the bullet and write a post (please forgive me if I make a mess of it sometimes - I'm the one who gives blondes a bad name with random questions!)

Here's a small introduction - myself and my boyfriend are ready to embark on the self-build process :eek:. We have our choice of sites on his parents' farm and as he has lived and worked in the area all his life, we're guessing we fufill the local need part of the criteria. My cousin is an architect and has drawn up the first draft of a plan for the house - it's 270 sqm and a one-storey concept (one part double height - the other part will have 9 foot ceilings). Our neighbours will be his parents and one of his brothers who got planning permission on the first go 5 years ago...so fingers crossed!

So - now the start of the questions!!
(a) where do I get the map needed to check sight lines??
(b) We are going to skip the option of a pre-planning meeting and see what they say when we submit plans and go from there (is that ridiculous?)

I've other questions - but I'll stick them in a more relevant place (that sounds a small bit rude, but ye know what I mean

Thanks in advance!! xx

muffler

First of all welcome to to the forum and please dont be afraid to ask any and all questions you may have (apart from the matters mentioned in the forum charter)

uptowngirly wrote: »

(a) where do I get the map needed to check sight lines??

The sight lines are the available or achievable distances that you can physically see traffic approaching measured from a point a certain distance back from the edge of the road - it varies depending on the class of road. You dont actually get a map to show them but your architect will check whats achievable on the ground and mark them on a map for you.

uptowngirly wrote: »

(b) We are going to skip the option of a pre-planning meeting and see what they say when we submit plans and go from there (is that ridiculous?)

A pre planning meeting is a facility best used when you would envisage problems with a planning application. I would take a guess and say that maybe less than 15% of all planning applications would have been preceded by a pre planning meeting. So if you dont envisage any major problems or your architect doesn't then by all means just go straight in for permission.

Poor Uncle Tom

uptowngirly wrote: »

Hi everyone!!

So - I feel like I know you all! I've been a long-time stalker on the construction and planning forum - I'm the one who gives blondes a bad name with random questions!)

I was waiting for you to post, let me guess, 6'5" bearded lumberjack named Bill?...:p

uptowngirly wrote: »

(a) where do I get the map needed to check sight lines??

First off, welcome along.
Your Architect should have a handle on the maps issue, and should be able to work out the sightlines for you.

uptowngirly wrote: »

(b) We are going to skip the option of a pre-planning meeting and see what they say when we submit plans and go from there (is that ridiculous?)

No, a pre-planning meeting is not necessary, and in some counties not even advisable. It is advisable however to prove your housing need as part of your application. So a letter from you detailing family ties to the site and others in the area would be advisable.

uptowngirly wrote: »

I've other questions - but I'll stick them in a more relevant place (that sounds a small bit rude, but ye know what I mean

Thanks in advance!! xx

Please do call again....:p

sydthebeat

uptowngirly wrote: »

Hi everyone!!

So - I feel like I know you all! I've been a long-time stalker on the construction and planning forum but this is my first time posting! I've decided that instead of going "please someone ask about...." and actually bite the bullet and write a post (please forgive me if I make a mess of it sometimes - I'm the one who gives blondes a bad name with random questions!)

Here's a small introduction - myself and my boyfriend are ready to embark on the self-build process :eek:. We have our choice of sites on his parents' farm and as he has lived and worked in the area all his life, we're guessing we fufill the local need part of the criteria. My cousin is an architect and has drawn up the first draft of a plan for the house - it's 270 sqm and a one-storey concept (one part double height - the other part will have 9 foot ceilings). Our neighbours will be his parents and one of his brothers who got planning permission on the first go 5 years ago...so fingers crossed!

So - now the start of the questions!!
(a) where do I get the map needed to check sight lines??
(b) We are going to skip the option of a pre-planning meeting and see what they say when we submit plans and go from there (is that ridiculous?)

I've other questions - but I'll stick them in a more relevant place (that sounds a small bit rude, but ye know what I mean

Thanks in advance!! xx

welcome, quick question

what county will you be applying in?

uptowngirly

Hi Sydthebeat!

We'll be applying to Fingal County Council.

Regarding the sightlines - we're hoping to use an existing farm gate for the PP and hoping that they'll let us move it (there's no random telegraph poles in our way or anything like that) to a better part of the road.

muffler

uptowngirly wrote: »

Regarding the sightlines - we're hoping to use an existing farm gate for the PP and hoping that they'll let us move it (there's no random telegraph poles in our way or anything like that) to a better part of the road.

A gate to a farm/field will have no effect whatsoever in relation to your planning application.

Unfortunately there is a misconceived idea out there that its an advantage to have a gate into a field and to use it but there is no comparison between an agricultural and a domestic entrance.

uptowngirly

Ah flip - that's how his brother got PP on the land - he was told that the fact that there was a gate there was really important.

Thanks a million anyway Muffler - it's better to have the proper information at hand so as I don't get ahead of myself