Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

muffler

john242 wrote: »

I am looking for a bit of advice in regards to sterilised land and the planning process. A relative has agreed to purchase a plot of land subject to planning permission and has had an application prepared by a local architect. The planning has been refused on the bases that the land is sterilised. The council has agreed that he would meet all the other criteria for local needs for the development and didn’t in principle have an issue with the design so the only stumbling block on the progression is the sterilise land or would appear to be anyway.
My question, is there any way around the land sterilisation, i.e.: can you rescind it or have it lifted, would it have a time limit or if he were to purchase the land now will the sterilisation pass to him as the new owner or would the purchase effectively nullify it.

Why and when was it sterilised?

sydthebeat

john242 wrote: »

I am looking for a bit of advice in regards to sterilised land and the planning process. A relative has agreed to purchase a plot of land subject to planning permission and has had an application prepared by a local architect. The planning has been refused on the bases that the land is sterilised. The council has agreed that he would meet all the other criteria for local needs for the development and didn’t in principle have an issue with the design so the only stumbling block on the progression is the sterilise land or would appear to be anyway.
My question, is there any way around the land sterilisation, i.e.: can you rescind it or have it lifted, would it have a time limit or if he were to purchase the land now will the sterilisation pass to him as the new owner or would the purchase effectively nullify it.

1 yes sterilisations can be lifted.

2 yes the sterilisation follows the purchase.

3 the best option is to try to get the sterilisation lifted , prior to purchase. Then agree to purchase "subject to planning".

The sterilisation clauses are a throw back to methods of local authorities to restrict rural development pre the introduction of the "sustainable rural housing guidelines" so they local authority may be more amenable to lifting the sterilisation and applying the guidelines to a new application.

john242

sydthebeat wrote: »

john242 wrote: »

I am looking for a bit of advice in regards to sterilised land and the planning process. A relative has agreed to purchase a plot of land subject to planning permission and has had an application prepared by a local architect. The planning has been refused on the bases that the land is sterilised. The council has agreed that he would meet all the other criteria for local needs for the development and didn’t in principle have an issue with the design so the only stumbling block on the progression is the sterilise land or would appear to be anyway.
My question, is there any way around the land sterilisation, i.e.: can you rescind it or have it lifted, would it have a time limit or if he were to purchase the land now will the sterilisation pass to him as the new owner or would the purchase effectively nullify it.

1 yes sterilisations can be lifted.

2 yes the sterilisation follows the purchase.

3 the best option is to try to get the sterilisation lifted , prior to purchase. Then agree to purchase "subject to planning".

The sterilisation clauses are a throw back to methods of local authorities to restrict rural development pre the introduction of the "sustainable rural housing guidelines" so they local authority may be more amenable to lifting the sterilisation and applying the guidelines to a new application.

Any ideas on how best to go about having the sterilization lifted

sydthebeat

john242 wrote: »

Any ideas on how best to go about having the sterilization lifted

talk to the planning office of your local council. They will direct you as to how you should move from here.

john242

muffler wrote: »

john242 wrote: »

I am looking for a bit of advice in regards to sterilised land and the planning process. A relative has agreed to purchase a plot of land subject to planning permission and has had an application prepared by a local architect. The planning has been refused on the bases that the land is sterilised. The council has agreed that he would meet all the other criteria for local needs for the development and didn’t in principle have an issue with the design so the only stumbling block on the progression is the sterilise land or would appear to be anyway.
My question, is there any way around the land sterilisation, i.e.: can you rescind it or have it lifted, would it have a time limit or if he were to purchase the land now will the sterilisation pass to him as the new owner or would the purchase effectively nullify it.

Why and when was it sterilised?

It's my understanding it was sterilized 10 to 15 years ago when a small acre site on one side of a larger field was sold and received a planning permission. The full field of approx 6 acres was steirilised.

BryanF

john242 wrote: »

It's my understanding it was sterilized 10 to 15 years ago when a small acre site on one side of a larger field was sold and received a planning permission. The full field of approx 6 acres was steirilised.

sterilisation generally has a time limit. so you may be OK. what it does suggest to a current planner is that the previous planner felt land sterilisation was necessary...

fallen01angel

Hi All,

Just looking for some advice,had a pre-planning meeting recently and to say it went badly would be an understatement.....basically I'm living in Cork,on family farm(not the main farmer-helping out regularly and also my elderly mother's main carer) and was hoping to build my own home somewhere on our land.The family home is on A3 zoned land and the adjacent field is also A3-the rest of the farm is A1. I have already been told the A3 zoned area is a non-starter as it has very limited road frontage and the only part of it that has the road access is onto a dangerous corner of a very busy road. Which means anywhere else I apply for is going to be A1 and in the meeting I was told the planning policy states that because the farm holding is on A3 no planning will be granted on an A1 site.

Sorry for the long winded post but my question is this....is there anything I can do/anyone I can appeal to??

mal_1

fallen01angel wrote: »

Hi All,

Just looking for some advice,had a pre-planning meeting recently and to say it went badly would be an understatement.....basically I'm living in Cork,on family farm(not the main farmer-helping out regularly and also my elderly mother's main carer) and was hoping to build my own home somewhere on our land.The family home is on A3 zoned land and the adjacent field is also A3-the rest of the farm is A1. I have already been told the A3 zoned area is a non-starter as it has very limited road frontage and the only part of it that has the road access is onto a dangerous corner of a very busy road. Which means anywhere else I apply for is going to be A1 and in the meeting I was told the planning policy states that because the farm holding is on A3 no planning will be granted on an A1 site.

Sorry for the long winded post but my question is this....is there anything I can do/anyone I can appeal to??

From what you have said here, it implies you just had a pre-planning meeting & not made any application on the farm.
Not been familiar CCC development plan as in what exactly the particular zonings mean, and exactly how they are relative to your farm, there is the long term route of going about changing the zoning on your land. This can take a few years for the re-writing of the development and has been made somewhat more arduous by the last Planning Act in 2010.

Also you have the option of lodging your planning (probably with the knowledge that it will be refused,) but with the intention of ultimately appealing it to An Bord Pleanala; whereby you will looking for the board to overturn the council decision and you are supplying them definite grounds to do so. This would be a considered approach and not always 100% successful, but with the assistance of a creative arch or planning consultant, you may be advised to go either of these directions.

fallen01angel

mal_1 wrote: »

From what you have said here, it implies you just had a pre-planning meeting & not made any application on the farm.
Not been familiar CCC development plan as in what exactly the particular zonings mean, and exactly how they are relative to your farm, there is the long term route of going about changing the zoning on your land. This can take a few years for the re-writing of the development and has been made somewhat more arduous by the last Planning Act in 2010.

Also you have the option of lodging your planning (probably with the knowledge that it will be refused,) but with the intention of ultimately appealing it to An Bord Pleanala; whereby you will looking for the board to overturn the council decision and you are supplying them definite grounds to do so. This would be a considered approach and not always 100% successful, but with the assistance of a creative arch or planning consultant, you may be advised to go either of these directions.

Thanks for the reply. This is my 3rd attempt at planning and basically I'm down to my last site option so requested the meeting prior to submitting any formal application to them.

BryanF

fallen01angel wrote: »

Hi All,

Just looking for some advice,had a pre-planning meeting recently and to say it went badly would be an understatement.....basically I'm living in Cork,on family farm(not the main farmer-helping out regularly and also my elderly mother's main carer) and was hoping to build my own home somewhere on our land.The family home is on A3 zoned land and the adjacent field is also A3-the rest of the farm is A1. I have already been told the A3 zoned area is a non-starter as it has very limited road frontage and the only part of it that has the road access is onto a dangerous corner of a very busy road. Which means anywhere else I apply for is going to be A1 and in the meeting I was told the planning policy states that because the farm holding is on A3 no planning will be granted on an A1 site.

Sorry for the long winded post but my question is this....is there anything I can do/anyone I can appeal to??

did you take anyone with you to the pre-planning meeting? I come across this time and time again. the applicant goes to the planners without representation and stuff gets lost in translation or in your case perhaps no one was able to mediate options suitable to appease you and your local planner. Go back to pre=planning with an experienced architect/ architectural technician or planning consultant - for instance what about gaining access through your parents site? there is generally a solution that can be reached, it may just require some lateral thinking, for instance what about a small land swap with a neighbour

mal_1

fallen01angel wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. This is my 3rd attempt at planning and basically I'm down to my last site option so requested the meeting prior to submitting any formal application to them.

Changing the site wont result in a different outcome, if the zoning on the farm is stopping you. Hence you may have to look to changing the zoning.

fallen01angel

BryanF wrote: »

did you take anyone with you to the pre-planning meeting? I come across this time and time again. the applicant goes to the planners without representation and stuff gets lost in translation or in your case perhaps no one was able to mediate options suitable to appease you and your local planner. Go back to pre=planning with an experienced architect/ architectural technician or planning consultant - for instance what about gaining access through your parents site? there is generally a solution that can be reached, it may just require some lateral thinking, for instance what about a small land swap with a neighbour

It was my engineer,the planner and myself...wouldn't dream of attending a meeting without backup:o TBH there were no grounds to mediate on,she gave us the planning policy-"Farmhouse on A3 land means that no submission on A1 zoning can be accepted,we're trying to bring consistency to the dept". When we explained that the A3 land had already been refused verbally by another planner(this was on a previous application) due to line of sight issues etc. she said that she would speak to her manager but thought it wouldn't make any difference.The original farm house has been there for generations and I've been told that the I would not get planning using the existing entrance as by today's standards it doesn't comply with the 80 metres line of sight requirements.

Timmyboy

You are being short changed by the planners here and it seems to me that if an existing entrance is in use, sucessfully for however long that it should be good enough now. ( I stress the importance of demonstrating the successful use of an entrance).

Look the councils are capable of bending the rules to suit themselves whenever they feel fit.

Arm yourself with a suitable architect who you know has sway with the planner and then lodge a planning that they feel ameniable to pass.

Then once that's approved apply for what you really need.

Then if they refuse or madly condition that, Appeal it to An Bord. If necessary take it to the High Court and bring out a sympathetic judge to see you caring at your mothers house.

The ways of Ireland.

<snip>

edit: sydthebeat

This is not a forum for ranting or pontificating. Either help if you can or do not contribute.

Arrahshtop

Hi Guys and Gals,

We have an big farm house that hasn't been lived in since the early 90's, it is in a good bit of disrepair, my question is if we were not to alter the external appearance of the building but completely gut the interior including walls etc... and rebuild a different layout in the interior would we need planning / permission to do this?

muffler

Arrahshtop wrote: »

Hi Guys and Gals,

We have an big farm house that hasn't been lived in since the early 90's, it is in a good bit of disrepair, my question is if we were not to alter the external appearance of the building but completely gut the interior including walls etc... and rebuild a different layout in the interior would we need planning / permission to do this?

No, that type of work would be exempt.

However make sure you comply with building regulations.

Arrahshtop

muffler wrote: »

No, that type of work would be exempt.

However make sure you comply with building regulations.

Excellent thanks Muffler

planIam

fallen01angel wrote: »

Hi All,


Just looking for some advice,had a pre-planning meeting recently and to say it went badly would be an understatement.....basically I'm living in Cork,on family farm(not the main farmer-helping out regularly and also my elderly mother's main carer) and was hoping to build my own home somewhere on our land.The family home is on A3 zoned land and the adjacent field is also A3-the rest of the farm is A1. I have already been told the A3 zoned area is a non-starter as it has very limited road frontage and the only part of it that has the road access is onto a dangerous corner of a very busy road. Which means anywhere else I apply for is going to be A1 and in the meeting I was told the planning policy states that because the farm holding is on A3 no planning will be granted on an A1 site.


Sorry for the long winded post but my question is this....is there anything I can do/anyone I can appeal to??

A1 Greenbelt is the most restrictive of the green belt zonings and why you're getting nowhere with the Area Planner fast. It sounds like your homeplace is in the A3 greenbelt, the Council is advising that you would only be considered in the A3 greenbelt.

This is an overly restrictive interpretation of the policy and there is some scope for you to have a site in the A1 considered as the Greenbelt Objective specifies that "individual housing needs of people engaged in agriculture/ landowners with a genuine connection to the area, or their immediate family members" can be considered subject to a suitable site.

Without seeing the entire landholding and knowing whether you already own a house etc. I can't say whether this alone will get you over the line but it doesn't sound like all hope is lost to me.

I hope it's ok for me to jump in here as I've only just registered and came across this post while looking for plastering advice for myself.

muffler

Just a reminder for people to please quote the comment they are replying to as it avoids confusion.

Thanks

planIam

muffler wrote: »

Just a reminder for people to please quote the comment they are replying to as it avoids confusion.

Thanks

Sorry newbie error. Used to boards that link back automatically.

muffler

planIam wrote: »

Sorry newbie error. Used to boards that link back automatically.

No problem. I see you've got the hang of it

This thread is so long and with so many queries from so many posters it can be confusing if we dont know who is saying what to who :eek:

Does anybody know what the guidelines are with building close to lakes, i think the planner said you had to be minimum of 50 metres away. But i have read the planning guidelines and they did not reference lakes or rivers.

rayjdav

Deleted User wrote: »

Does anybody know what the guidelines are with building close to lakes, i think the planner said you had to be minimum of 50 metres away. But i have read the planning guidelines and they did not reference lakes or rivers.

Table 6.1 of the EPA CoP for treatment systems dictate a minimum seperation distance of 50m from a lake:
http://www.epa.ie/downloads/advice/water/wastewater/code%20of%20practice%20for%20single%20houses/Code%20of%20Practice%20Part%201%202010.pdf
Your local CoCo may have additional issues but this is for the treatment system, not the building.
A specific site study will explain the soil types on the site and exactly where, if at all, you can have your percolation area.

rayjdav

rayjdav wrote: »

Table 6.1 of the EPA CoP for treatment systems dictate a minimum seperation distance of 50m from a lake:
http://www.epa.ie/downloads/advice/water/wastewater/code%20of%20practice%20for%20single%20houses/Code%20of%20Practice%20Part%201%202010.pdf
Your local CoCo may have additional issues but this is for the treatment system, not the building.
A specific site study will explain the soil types on the site and exactly where, if at all, you can have your percolation area.

Thank you, i had been reading the planning guidelines and not the Development plan.

When a planner references "sight lines" what are they referring to ?

Thanks

muffler

Deleted User wrote: »

When a planner references "sight lines" what are they referring to ?

Its basically the unobstructed line of sight from your entrance to oncoming traffic.

It varies depending on what class of a road the entrance will be on and again it varies from county to county. Checking the technical standards of the development plan will give it to you.

As an example a local county road here in Donegal will have a minimum sight line requirement of 70.00 x 2.40 x 1.06 (metres). 70m is the min. required unobstructed distance that you can achieve. 2.40 is the distance in from the edge of the road where its measured from. 1.06 is the height that the sight line is measured over.

So to put that into practice.......imagine you are sitting in your car (as in exiting the site) at a distance of 2.40m back from the road edge and your eye height is 1.06m (standard driving height in car) then you have to be able to see at least 70m to the near edge of the road in both directions. If there are any obstructions such as walls, hedges, trees poles etc then they will have to be removed or lowered.

Hope all that makes sense.

rayjdav

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank you, i had been reading the planning guidelines and not the Development plan.

When a planner references "sight lines" what are they referring to ?

Thanks

Sightlines are the available straight line distance, from a sitting height (1.05m) left and right, to the near edge of the carraigeway. Each road type has different required distances. National/Regional/Local roads are the main types of road. Your local CDP will have these required distances in a table. Usually, this is the 1st thing to check on site as in most cases, if you don't have sightlines, you won't have a house there.

The previous 50m reference is not from a CDP but from a national "standard", the EPA rules and regs basically......

Thanks

terrarev

Just a quick query, regarding a sight line FI request we've had for our planning.
We're applying for planning on a country lane cul de sac off a regional road. We've been asked to provide two different sight lines, one for our site entrance of 70m in each direction which there will be no problem achieving, and another for the road junction at the end of the road we're hoping to build on of 120m which we're more worried about.

We're surprised as this request as there have been a few different planning requests granted on this road in the last 10 years and it doesn't seem like there was an issue with this junction in any of the previous requests. Is this a common request? The main problem with achieving the sight line is in one direction as the road slopes upward gently and levels out about 80m away so we can't see the full 120m due to the hill brow.

sydthebeat

terrarev wrote: »

Just a quick query, regarding a sight line FI request we've had for our planning.
We're applying for planning on a country lane cul de sac off a regional road. We've been asked to provide two different sight lines, one for our site entrance of 70m in each direction which there will be no problem achieving, and another for the road junction at the end of the road we're hoping to build on of 120m which we're more worried about.

We're surprised as this request as there have been a few different planning requests granted on this road in the last 10 years and it doesn't seem like there was an issue with this junction in any of the previous requests. Is this a common request? The main problem with achieving the sight line is in one direction as the road slopes upward gently and levels out about 80m away so we can't see the full 120m due to the hill brow.

terrarev wrote: »

We're surprised as this request as there have been a few different planning requests granted on this road in the last 10 years and it doesn't seem like there was an issue with this junction in any of the previous requests.

just because something wasnt asked for previously does not mean its not applicable or pertinent to your application. Policies are ever changing to make development safer and more sustainable going forward.

terrarev wrote: »

The main problem with achieving the sight line is in one direction as the road slopes upward gently and levels out about 80m away so we can't see the full 120m due to the hill brow.

You will need to have levels taken and do a longitudinal section on the road to see what heights can be seen at a distance of 120 m from your land entrance. i think the tipping point is 1.5 meters... as long as you can see below that level you should be alright. If you cannot, then its fesible that you cannot see a car approaching.

phillywilly

hello guys,

i wonder if i made a mistake?

i have just sent an email in confidence to the planner who is due to make a decision on my planning app in seven days time ?

i just said that i wanted him to know that the planning app is made in good faith and gave him some personal information that i didn't want on public file.

have i done anything wrong?

rayjdav

phillywilly wrote: »

hello guys,

i wonder if i made a mistake?

i have just sent an email in confidence to the planner who is due to make a decision on my planning app in seven days time ?

i just said that i wanted him to know that the planning app is made in good faith and gave him some personal information that i didn't want on public file.

have i done anything wrong?

He is obliged to note it in the register, under your planning file ref no. This by default is open to public viewing, FoI etc. It will be noted as unsolicited information and may very well be scanned as such.

There is no law broken and can do no harm in the long run, assuming that the information is relevant and accurate and there was no suggestion of enducement etc...

Chances are all it will do at this stage is add weight to any possible RFI/condition that may have already been issued to the file, at worst case.