Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

Poor Uncle Tom

mal_1 wrote: »

.....but if it is intended as a piggery or for the storage of animals, and depending whether you are in a rural or urban location there are differing exemptions available.

Just to point out that there are no exemptions for agricultural buildings within the curtilage of a dwelling house regardless of whether the house is located in an urban or rural area.

Razzen

Hi all,

Looking for some help. I've recently put in a steel shipping container in my back garden as a shed, much cheaper than building one. However I've now been told that I don't have planning permission and I'm unlikely to get it, so I'm facing a fine and have to remove the container.

I spoke to a local planner to see why it wasn't an exempt building? ie. 15m and 2.5 height. They basically said that because those containers are normally used as industrial storage that they're not allowed, and that the outer should match the surrounding etc.(Even though i pointed out that not one of the other sheds in the area did) So i asked what if i dry dashed the outside (Somehow) to match the house etc. but I was told I would need to apply for planning for this and that it would most likely not be permitted?

Just curious as to why this wouldn't fall under the exempt section if i sorted the external finish? Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated.

shane6977

Hi Razzen,

The planner is incorrect imho. It sounds like it is indeed exempt under Class 3 so long as it conforms to the following under the Planning and Development Regulations, 2001:

SCHEDULE 2
PART 1
Exempted Development — General

CLASS 3
The construction, erection or placing
within the curtilage of a house of any
tent, awning, shade or other object,
greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other
similar structure.

1. No such structure shall be constructed,
erected or placed forward of the front
wall of a house.
2. The total area of such structures
constructed, erected or placed within the
curtilage of a house shall not, taken
together with any other such structures
previously constructed, erected or placed
within the said curtilage, exceed 25
square metres.
3. The construction, erection or
placing within the curtilage of a house of
any such structure shall not reduce the
amount of private open space reserved
exclusively for the use of the occupants
of the house to the rear or to the side of
the house to less than 25 square metres.
4. The external finishes of any garage or
other structure constructed, erected or
placed to the side of a house, and the roof
covering where any such structure has a
tiled or slated roof, shall conform with
those of the house.
5. The height of any such structure shall
not exceed, in the case of a building with
a tiled or slated pitched roof, 4 metres or,
in any other case, 3 metres.
6. The structure shall not be used for
human habitation or for the keeping of
pigs, poultry, pigeons, ponies or horses,
or for any other purpose other than a
purpose incidental to the enjoyment of
the house as such.

shane6977

@ Razzen,

Sorry should have added, if you match the finishes of the house as per item 4, the planner should have nothing to object to (as you correctly stated)!

sydthebeat

Razzen wrote: »

I spoke to a local planner to see why it wasn't an exempt building? ie. 15m and 2.5 height.

how wide? 15 x ???

is it 15 x 2.5 x 2.4 ??

Razzen wrote: »

They basically said that because those containers are normally used as industrial storage that they're not allowed, and that the outer should match the surrounding etc.(Even though i pointed out that not one of the other sheds in the area did)

The external finish must conform with that of the house, regardless of what exists in the area.

Razzen wrote: »

So i asked what if i dry dashed the outside (Somehow) to match the house etc. but I was told I would need to apply for planning for this and that it would most likely not be permitted?

Just curious as to why this wouldn't fall under the exempt section if i sorted the external finish? Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated.

Is the container behind the front building line of the house?

If the external finishes conform with the house and ALL the conditions of exemption are met, then i cant see why it would require permission.

You can dash the external by fixing cement board to the steelwork and dashing over.

Razzen

Thanks for the replies,

the container is well behind the front line of the house and its 2.5m*6m and 2.5 high. I pointed out the details under class 3, but was told that someone else else had recently applied to do as i had suggested and changed the finish etc and it wasn't approved.

I'm in meath, but i'm pretty sure that doesn't effect anything under class 3.

thanks again for replies..any suggestions as to what i might be able to do?

sydthebeat

Razzen wrote: »

Thanks for the replies,

the container is well behind the front line of the house and its 2.5m*6m and 2.5 high. I pointed out the details under class 3, but was told that someone else else had recently applied to do as i had suggested and changed the finish etc and it wasn't approved.

I'm in meath, but i'm pretty sure that doesn't effect anything under class 3.

thanks again for replies..any suggestions as to what i might be able to do?

it would be helpful if you got the planning reference number of that application and looked it up to see what the reasons for refusal were.

DOCARCH

Sounds like stubborness to be honest! I'd say the planners don't like the idea of people putting shipping containers in their back gardens.

The floor area of the container seems to fall into the expempted area (if it is 6 x 2.5M), as does the height (i.e. under 3M). If you could finish to match the house, I can't see the problem either.

Nothing in exempted development to suggest what the actual sturture should be (just the finishes).

If you feel all the criteria of exempted development have been met (if you finish off the outside of the container), I would suggest you apply for a Section 5 Declaration to ask the Council formally tell you that it is exempt (or formally tell you why they feel it is not exempt). If they decide it is not exempt, you can appeal to An Bord Pleanala.

muffler

Razzen wrote: »

Hi all,

Looking for some help. I've recently put in a steel shipping container in my back garden as a shed, much cheaper than building one. However I've now been told that I don't have planning permission and I'm unlikely to get it, so I'm facing a fine and have to remove the container.

I spoke to a local planner to see why it wasn't an exempt building? ie. 15m and 2.5 height. They basically said that because those containers are normally used as industrial storage that they're not allowed, and that the outer should match the surrounding etc.(Even though i pointed out that not one of the other sheds in the area did) So i asked what if i dry dashed the outside (Somehow) to match the house etc. but I was told I would need to apply for planning for this and that it would most likely not be permitted?

Just curious as to why this wouldn't fall under the exempt section if i sorted the external finish? Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated.

You would have to roof it also so at the end of the day I dont think it would be a viable option.

DOCARCH

muffler wrote: »

You would have to roof it also so at the end of the day.......

Why?

No reason not to have a flat roofed shed? Nothing in exempted development to say the roof must match any existing structure?

muffler

DOCARCH wrote: »

Why?

No reason not to have a flat roofed shed? Nothing in exempted development to say the roof must match any existing structure?

Nothing to do with the exemptions but more from a practical point of view as it would weather-proof the container leaving it capable of dry use/storage.

sydthebeat

assuming a steel container is already weather proof

I cant see why the profiled sheeting finish wouldn't be acceptable.
Flat roof sheds can have a myriad of finishes.

An attempt to match the dwelling could be made by the addition of a plinth and eaves.

DOCARCH

muffler wrote: »

Nothing to do with the exemptions but more from a practical point of view as it would weather-proof the container leaving it capable of dry use/storage.

Containers travel the world on the open decks of ships. Can't see the weather in Meath being any worse than the high seas! :eek::p

Corkblowin

The finishes are also only required to match when the structure is to the side of the house - so its even questionable if its in the rear garden whether it needs to be plastered. (In planning terms that is - for aesthetic reasons it would be good to do it).

Razzen

Cheers all,

I'll keep everyone updated and let you know what happens! I'm arranging a meeting with a planner at a pre-planning clinic they run. So will see what they say then!

DOCARCH

Razzen wrote: »

Cheers all,

I'll keep everyone updated and let you know what happens! I'm arranging a meeting with a planner at a pre-planning clinic they run. So will see what they say then!

Don't let them fob you off with some guff! Go in armed with the exempted development regulations. Do let us know what they have to say.

jakko86

Hi all just looking into buying a site and i was told that once i get planning and have my plans approved by the council i have to fork out another 10k or so to the council before i lay a block???? is this true and if so why?how much exactly?or how is this calculated?:mad: it will be clare co co. so does the charge vary from council to council?

muffler

jakko86 wrote: »

Hi all just looking into buying a site and i was told that once i get planning and have my plans approved by the council i have to fork out another 10k or so to the council before i lay a block???? is this true and if so why?how much exactly?or how is this calculated?:mad: it will be clare co co. so does the charge vary from council to council?

Yes, you will have to pay development contributions. The amount is normally based on the size of the house but if you log into your local council's web site you should find it.

There's a thread here which contains some info on what people are paying around the country.

muffler

jakko86 wrote: »

Hi all just looking into buying a site and i was told that once i get planning and have my plans approved by the council i have to fork out another 10k or so to the council before i lay a block???? is this true and if so why?how much exactly?or how is this calculated?:mad: it will be clare co co. so does the charge vary from council to council?

Link to devp. contributions in Clare

Edit: From what I can see its €4224.53 for houses up to 200 sq. metres and then €13.06 per m2 for houses in excess of 200 m2

They will most likely facilitate payment in stages over 3 years but you should ring and get this clarified.

joebaker20

Hi All, My wife and I have recently purchased a site that already has full planning permission on it and still valid. We do not intend to build the said house which there is already full planning for as its simply too big. So I will be sumitting my own planning permission etc for the same site.

My question is can I use the existing Site Suitability Assessment for the same site even though all im changing is the size of the house.

Cheers

rayjdav

joebaker20 wrote: »

Hi All, My wife and I have recently purchased a site that already has full planning permission on it and still valid. We do not intend to build the said house which there is already full planning for as its simply too big. So I will be sumitting my own planning permission etc for the same site.

My question is can I use the existing Site Suitability Assessment for the same site even though all im changing is the size of the house.

Cheers

On the assumption that your CDP criteria has not changed and more importantly, as most councils now insist on an assessor from an approved list does the test, that this person is aware and still in business, with insurance, I believe it is ok.
I did one a few years ago like this but had got the permission from the tester to reuse his results, out of courtesy.

If you are changing the No. of bedrooms, the capacity for the treatment/percolation will reduce/increase pro-rata..

joebaker20

rayjdav wrote: »

On the assumption that your CDP criteria has not changed and more importantly, as most councils now insist on an assessor from an approved list does the test, that this person is aware and still in business, with insurance, I believe it is ok.
I did one a few years ago like this but had got the permission from the tester to reuse his results, out of courtesy.

If you are changing the No. of bedrooms, the capacity for the treatment/percolation will reduce/increase pro-rata..

thanks for that rayjdav. I obviously would not use someones results without permission and understand he/she may ask for a small fee which is totally fine. There will be no change in the number of bedrooms etc and the maximum number of residents would also not be changing. The original assessor is still on the county councils panel of approved assessors. What do you mean by "CDP" criteria?

Regards,
J

rayjdav

joebaker20 wrote: »

thanks for that rayjdav. I obviously would not use someones results without permission and understand he/she may ask for a small fee which is totally fine. There will be no change in the number of bedrooms etc and the maximum number of residents would also not be changing. The original assessor is still on the county councils panel of approved assessors. What do you mean by "CDP" criteria?

Regards,
J

CDP = County Development Plan.

Some Councils allowed the use of the traditional septic tank and associated percolation areas but recently these are next nigh impossible to get as most councils have now changed to mandatory Proprietary treatment systems. Just check that the existing proposals are permitted under the CDP. If it was septic tank does not mean that it will be allowed 2nd time around.

joebaker20

rayjdav wrote: »

CDP = County Development Plan.

Some Councils allowed the use of the traditional septic tank and associated percolation areas but recently these are next nigh impossible to get as most councils have now changed to mandatory Proprietary treatment systems. Just check that the existing proposals are permitted under the CDP. If it was septic tank does not mean that it will be allowed 2nd time around.

I get you now, I just looked at the application in question and they were granted permission based on a regular septic tank with proprietry peat filter and proprietry distribution box. I'll check to see if anything has changed in the CDP and whether or not the same system will be allowed now

Poor Uncle Tom

joebaker20 wrote: »

I get you now, I just looked at the application in question and they were granted permission based on a regular septic tank with proprietry peat filter and proprietry distribution box. I'll check to see if anything has changed in the CDP and whether or not the same system will be allowed now

Also just to remember that any planning application being submitted from March 2010 would have to be accompanied by Site Assessment (where necessary) carried out in compliance with the EPA's Code of Practice and not their Technical Guidance Document or the SR6. So basically if the last test was not carried out in accordance with the EPA's CoP then it is not acceptable to submit it now with a new planning application.

joebaker20

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Also just to remember that any planning application being submitted from March 2010 would have to be accompanied by Site Assessment (where necessary) carried out in compliance with the EPA's Code of Practice and not their Technical Guidance Document or the SR6. So basically if the last test was not carried out in accordance with the EPA's CoP then it is not acceptable to submit it now with a new planning application.

Thanks for that Tom but how do i distinguish between the two? I've been looking at the application and the Site suitability assessment on the Co.co's website

rayjdav

joebaker20 wrote: »

Thanks for that Tom but how do i distinguish between the two? I've been looking at the application and the Site suitability assessment on the Co.co's website

Whats the date of the application? The EPA doc is 2010 so anything pre that would be SR6 1991 or EPA 2000.

Talk to the LA Env. Dept and see if you need to amend it, just stating that the PE (person equivilent) is not been altered. They may permit the same test regardless.

Poor Uncle Tom

rayjdav wrote: »

Talk to the LA Env. Dept and see if you need to amend it, just stating that the PE (person equivilent) is not been altered. They may permit the same test regardless.

If it's not done to the EPA's Code of Practice it will need to be re-done, given the Ministerial directive

All Local Authorities have been advised by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government of new arrangements with regard to the assessment of on-site wastewater disposal systems for single houses. From the 8th January 2010, Planning Authorities are required to implement the current EPA Code of Practice in respect of all applications received on, or after the 8th January 2010.

For all Planning Applications received on, or after the 8th January 2010, Planning Authorities must ensure that every individual dwelling that is granted planning permission in an unsewered area has first undergone site suitability assessment using the methodology set out in the EPA Code of Practice and the site assessment has fully met the required standards, as overseen by an appropriately trained, qualified, accountable and indemnified assessor and designer.

It should state it on the cover of the report that it is carried out to or using the methodology set out in the EPA Code of Practice.
It will usually contain a completed form as shown from page 80 of this
http://www.epa.ie/downloads/advice/water/wastewater/code%20of%20practice%20for%20single%20houses/Code%20of%20Practice%20Part%202.pdf

rocksby

joebaker20 wrote: »

Hi All, My wife and I have recently purchased a site that already has full planning permission on it and still valid. We do not intend to build the said house which there is already full planning for as its simply too big. So I will be sumitting my own planning permission etc for the same site.

My question is can I use the existing Site Suitability Assessment for the same site even though all im changing is the size of the house.

Cheers

Just apply for a change of house type and there'll be no issues with site suitability assessemnt. If you're looking for a smaller house make sure your development contributions get reduced accordingly.

Poor Uncle Tom

rocksby wrote: »

Just apply for a change of house type and there'll be no issues with site suitability assessemnt.

You'll find that this is not the case.