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Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

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    #2792
    Angry bird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    4 weeks.


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    #2793
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Your architect will propose a solution to reconciling the actual and notional submitted boundary. What sort of distances are we talking about? Was a survey recommended prior to planning submission?


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    #2794
    mrsWhippy
    Registered Users Posts: 673 ✭✭✭mrsWhippy


    BryanF wrote: »
    Your architect will propose a solution to reconciling the actual and notional submitted boundary. What sort of distances are we talking about? Was a survey recommended prior to planning submission?

    Yeah - we had a digital survey done. The difference between the original OS maps and the actual boundaries are a couple of meters here and there along a large hedge, but total about a 20% increase in area in the actual site as it stands. Thankfully the plans still fit no matter what boundary is used, but I'm wondering what legal implications this might have? The site hasn't been registered with Land Registry.


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    #2795
    mrsWhippy
    Registered Users Posts: 673 ✭✭✭mrsWhippy


    Hi
    Just have a question about planning permission that has just been granted.

    We submitted one application for dual works - extension to an existing house and a new build. We submitted both together as they are co-dependent.

    The extension is about 24 sq.m so is technically under the limit for requiring permission in it's own right. My question is would it be possible to increase the size this extension a tiny bit (just to add an extra kitchen unit to the length, 60cm -might end up being a total of 3 or 4 sq.m) or do we need to build exactly to the plans? Can we apply for retention for something like this afterwards? What could we do that wouldn't affect the validity of the permission in it's entirety, or delay the project?

    Thanks


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    #2796
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    mrsWhippy wrote: »
    Hi
    Just have a question about planning permission that has just been granted.

    We submitted one application for dual works - extension to an existing house and a new build. We submitted both together as they are co-dependent.

    The extension is about 24 sq.m so is technically under the limit for requiring permission in it's own right. My question is would it be possible to increase the size this extension a tiny bit (just to add an extra kitchen unit to the length, 60cm -might end up being a total of 3 or 4 sq.m) or do we need to build exactly to the plans? Can we apply for retention for something like this afterwards? What could we do that wouldn't affect the validity of the permission in it's entirety, or delay the project?

    Thanks

    Difficult question to answer! The proper answer is...

    You must build in accordance with the planning permission as granted, and, complete that build. This is probably one of the first planning conditions.

    Once what you have been granted planning permission for is built/complete, then, you could extend the existing house a further 12 m.sq., as long as all requirements for exempt development are met, and, as long as there is no condition in your planning permission limiting further extensions (even exempt development) to the existing house.


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    #2797
    mrsWhippy
    Registered Users Posts: 673 ✭✭✭mrsWhippy


    Thanks Docarch.

    What is the retention feature for then, might that apply in our case?

    It wouldn't be feasible to build the extension, then knock the wall and build again so that idea is really out, for the sake of an extra kitchen unit (though that will give us a lot more flexibility in the kitchen layout)


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    #2798
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Retention is a means by which people who have built something without planning permission or have built something that doesn't comply with the planning permission that they have in place can regularise their situation.

    So ........ in order to apply for retention you must have broken the law in the first place ...... and we (correctly) cannot discuss breaking the law on this forum.

    Have you asked your professional (i.e. the person supervising the works)?


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    #2799
    mrsWhippy
    Registered Users Posts: 673 ✭✭✭mrsWhippy


    Not yet, but we will be discussing it shortly. Just wanted to know what our options were! Thanks


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    #2800
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Metric Tensor wrote: »
    So ........ in order to apply for retention you must have broken the law in the first place ...... and we (correctly) cannot discuss breaking the law on this forum.

    Exactly! Retention is/was intended as a mechanism to regularise genuine mistakes!

    You would be far better going for an amendment planning application for what you have planning for...it will cost you less than a retention application...and you can carry on with the rest of the build while the amendment application is being decided on.


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    #2801
    mrsWhippy
    Registered Users Posts: 673 ✭✭✭mrsWhippy


    Thanks!

    For an amendment planning application, is this open to observation and appeals as would be the process for a new planning application? We just got this by the skin of our teeth, so am wary to open this up again at the risk of appeal!


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    #2802
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    mrsWhippy wrote: »
    For an amendment planning application, is this open to observation and appeals as would be the process for a new planning application?

    Yes, afraid so! But, surely, there would be little to object in relation to a couple of sq.m.?

    If you had objectors to your original application, you may well get yourself into bigger/deeper problems if you build the extra couple of sq.m. without permission (even with the intention that you can get retention permission later).

    There are cases (in Dublin) where people have been prosecuted for breach of planning permission (...even after getting retention permission!).

    Breaching planning permission is a criminal offence. Retention permission just regularises from a planning perspective. It does not absolve the fact you broke the law in the first place!


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    #2803
    mrsWhippy
    Registered Users Posts: 673 ✭✭✭mrsWhippy


    So could the neighbours object to the application in its entirety again, or just the amendment itself? There is no way that the permission as it stands could be revoked?

    I'm not out to do anything illegal btw!


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    #2804
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    mrsWhippy wrote: »
    So could the neighbours object to the application in its entirety again, or just the amendment itself? There is no way that the permission as it stands could be revoked?

    Only the amendment. Your original planning permission still stands, and, you can get on building what you have planning permission for.


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    #2805
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Also to make it clear regarding retention ...

    The local authority do not have to give you permission to retain. They can refuse your application for retention.

    If they refuse you retention you will be expected to knock what's built and if you don't the local authority will take you to court to make sure you do!


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    #2806
    chippers
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭chippers


    Be careful with your timelines if making an amendment application and commencing works on the original permission at the same time. If you had a FI Request last time and submissions on file your application may take some time to get through the system. You dont want to end up in a situation where you have to stop works because you are awaiting a decision on the amendment application.


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    #2807
    Angry bird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Metric Tensor wrote: »
    Also to make it clear regarding retention ...

    The local authority do not have to give you permission to retain. They can refuse your application for retention.

    If they refuse you retention you will be expected to knock what's built and if you don't the local authority will take you to court to make sure you do!

    LA can and will take you to court but it is for a judge to decide and they don't always side with the LA.


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    #2808
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Angry bird wrote: »
    LA can and will take you to court but it is for a judge to decide and they don't always side with the LA.

    A fair point. I should have phrased it better:

    The LA will take you to court where you will have to explain why you haven't regularised your situation. As Angry Bird says the courts don't always agree with the LA.


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    #2809
    kieran.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭kieran.


    Query in relation to planning condition below ?


    2a. Within three months of date of grant of planning permission applicant shall submit to the Planning Authority for agreement in writing revised plans indicating the following:
    (i) .................................
    (ii) .................................
    (iii) .................................
    b. Development shall be carried out in accordance with the revised plans or as otherwise agreed with the Planning Authority.

    If the revised plans are not submitted to the Authority within the 3 month time line would it by default mean the entire permission is not implementable ?

    Does anyone have any precedent for this happening?


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    #2810
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Never seen a time limit before, however, if that's what the condition says, that's what it says. In theory, if you don't submit the required information in 3 months, the planning permission is void.


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    #2811
    chippers
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭chippers


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Never seen a time limit before, however, if that's what the condition says, that's what it says. In theory, if you don't submit the required information in 3 months, the planning permission is void.

    Conditions are broken all the time. It doesnt necessarily mean your permission is void. I dont know anywhere in legislation that says that. The Councils themselves have no definitive time frame to respond to you and ive waited in excess of a year to hear make from them on conditions that were to be agreed 'prior to the commencement of development...'. Sometimes ive never heard back.

    OP if you are having difficulty meeting the timeframe contact the Local Authority and your case planner and discuss it with them. They are normally quite reasonable. Maybe put in a holding submission outlining the reasons for your delay to buy time.


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    #2812
    Dudda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Dudda


    chippers wrote: »
    The Councils themselves have no definitive time frame to respond to you and ive waited in excess of a year to hear make from them on conditions that were to be agreed 'prior to the commencement of development...'. Sometimes ive never heard back.

    Always phrase it in the cover letter that you assume the enclosed to be satisfactory and you intend to commence construction in x time. Ask them to reply if they are not satisfied. That means if they don't reply, which I often find they don't, your covered. You're also putting a time limit on them by stating when construction will start.


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    #2813
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    chippers wrote: »
    Conditions are broken all the time.

    I wouldn't agree that conditions are broken all the time? Maybe in your experience?

    Usually if a condition is broken it means you have not complied with your planning permission and it has to be regularised to ensure compliance.

    If a timeframe is stated in the conditions of the planning permission, and, you do not adhere to that time frame, there is no way of regularising that!

    Bear in mind that a planning permission is a legal document. The planner (or anybody in the planning office) cannot alter that condition afterwards.

    An alternative, if you are not happy with a condition in a planning permission is to appeal the decision to An Bord Pleanala.


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    #2814
    chippers
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭chippers


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    I wouldn't agree that conditions are broken all the time? Maybe in your experience?
    .

    Not the condition but the timeframe. Yes in my experience the timeframe element of a condition is often not met. Both on the side of the developer not meeting it and the council not responding.


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    #2815
    ironmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭ironmonkey


    Hi all I m new here so forgive any obvious questions. I'm looking to transfer the planning on an existing site to us. I think we should satisfy local needs criteria. I have arranged a meeting with the planner for two weeks time.
    What should I bring to the meeting. Would it be worth bringing a short overview as to why we think we meet the requirements?
    My second question is with regard to the existing planning building. It is a dormer style building with 3 bedrooms c2000 sq ft. We would want to change the layout out to make 4 bedrooms and maybe expand the existing plan slightly to accommodate this. Should I bring this up at this meeting or leave it until we get step one i.e transfer first ?
    Thanks all for any advice. P


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    #2816
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ironmonkey wrote: »
    Hi all I m new here so forgive any obvious questions. I'm looking to transfer the planning on an existing site to us. I think we should satisfy local needs criteria. I have arranged a meeting with the planner for two weeks time.
    1. What should I bring to the meeting. Would it be worth bringing a short overview as to why we think we meet the requirements?

    2. My second question is with regard to the existing planning building. It is a dormer style building with 3 bedrooms c2000 sq ft. We would want to change the layout out to make 4 bedrooms and maybe expand the existing plan slightly to accommodate this. Should I bring this up at this meeting or leave it until we get step one i.e transfer first ?
    Thanks all for any advice. P

    first off, just be aware that this meeting is nothing more than "a chat" with a planner. there will be no decisions made at it. so with that in mind...

    1. 'local needs' differ greatly from county to county... with some counties being very very prescriptive as to what amounts to meeting the requirement where other counties are less restrictive. All you can do is explain your situation to the planner and they can tell you if you should meet the requirement or not. They can also advise you of the documentation you would need to prove what you say. Also, you say "transfer" so are you an immediate family member of the current planning permission applicant? if not, and your purchasing the site, you should be purchasing subject to obtaining permission.

    2. if 1 goes well, then yes you should bring up the 'change of house design' that you intend to do. The planner will probably direct you to the county rural design guidelines, or the cork rural design guidelines that most county's base their own on. It would be no harm to have a photo or picture of the 'general idea' of what youd like to propose.


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    #2817
    ironmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭ironmonkey


    Cheers Syd thanks for the info. We are not a relative but neighbours of the family who have planning they have the site for sale with planning. I'm hopeful that the planner can give us a direction in terms of the process and that we would meet the local needs in a similar manner that planning was originally granted.


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    #2818
    summereire
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭summereire


    Hi, our place is down the end of a lane which is privately owned (we have a right of way over it) and we own no roadside property. Where is it acceptable for us to put up the planning notice signs? Obviously one on our gate, but isn't one required on the road too? The trouble is our neighbour who owns the roadside part has specifically told us that they don't want any signage or notifications there and have taken planning notice signs down previously for another neighbour who lives down the lane. Any ideas much appreciated!


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    #2819
    Angry bird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Must be one at the junction of the lane and public road and on site but don't stick it on a gate. Your neighbour should not be taking down such public notices. Take a pic of both site notices put up and send in with your application. As soon as you see one down, ring the guards and get a reference number off them and send a copy of this into the Council. Obviously you don't have to name names and keep putting up the site notice which must be in place for the 5 week observation period. Once this is up, take the site notices away.


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    #2820
    summereire
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭summereire


    Thanks- what then happens if they keep taking the notices down which they said they would (and did before)? The council will presumably keep marking the applications invalid and I'm guessing the Gardai would consider it a civil matter?
    Angry bird wrote: »
    Must be one at the junction of the lane and public road and on site but don't stick it on a gate. Your neighbour should not be taking down such public notices. Take a pic of both site notices put up and send in with your application. As soon as you see one down, ring the guards and get a reference number off them and send a copy of this into the Council. Obviously you don't have to name names and keep putting up the site notice which must be in place for the 5 week observation period. Once this is up, take the site notices away.


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    #2821
    Angry bird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    summereire wrote: »
    Thanks- what then happens if they keep taking the notices down which they said they would (and did before)? The council will presumably keep marking the applications invalid and I'm guessing the Gardai would consider it a civil matter?
    Angry bird wrote: »
    Must be one at the junction of the lane and public road and on site but don't stick it on a gate. Your neighbour should not be taking down such public notices. Take a pic of both site notices put up and send in with your application. As soon as you see one down, ring the guards and get a reference number off them and send a copy of this into the Council. Obviously you don't have to name names and keep putting up the site notice which must be in place for the 5 week observation period. Once this is up, take the site notices away.

    The Council I work for will accept the Garda reference number and often let's the applicant know when the site will be inspected so that the applicant can make sure the notice is in place. You can only to your best with it and these situations arise regularly enough. Maybe ring your local council and see what they advise.


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