We need cyclist education

daymobrew

I normally cycle into work after 9am (having done an hour or so work at home). This week I've had to be in for 9am. While we all know about driver behavior, I must admit that the quality of cyclists in the city is brutal! Red lights are frequently broken, turns/merges into traffic when cars are near (which must be freaky for the motorist) and footpaths mounted without concern for pedestrians (it's quite frightening when a cyclist cycles past at speed).

For the regular commuting cyclist, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir - you all see it daily. It's quite depressing - I feel that my law abiding behaviour and courtesy is undermined by the actions of others. Unlike scumbags in a certain area, where it's often a minority causing all the trouble, I really feel that bad cyclists are not in the minority.

Back to the thread title, I wonder would safety training for children improve their adult behaviour and encourage more commuting cycling as adults.

End of rant.

el tel

I agree with everything you say about the awful riding that goes on in, certainly in Dublin. To many commuters and courriers alike, red lights appear to be meaningless, stopping at junctions is rarely done (especially while making left turns) and pavements are regarded as the highway. So much so that it has come to the point that I would barely feel any sympathy for any cyclist injured as a result of doing any of the above.

However I don't think training for children will be effective in stopping this unfortunately. It seems to me that those doing it are mature adults who know what they are doing and merely take measured chances. Ironically they are often kitted out in full safety gear-helmets, fluo reflective jackets etc.
In my opinion, the best approach would be to fine and prosecute cyclists who violate the rules of the road. Sadly again, it would seem that this would be beyond the scope and ability of the police who are barely capable of enforcing the same rules against motorists.

Raam

on the cycle path along Clontarf I see plenty of cyclists/pedestrians turning onto it without even bothering to check if someone is coming. It's worrying really. Some unfortunate soul might end up being knocked down by some clown who turns on without looking. One day I saw a fella cycle into a pole that is set in the path where it stops briefly for a car park. He was looking everywhere apart from where he was actually going.

There's some other feller who cycles along with his hands behind his back, with his earphones in, weaving all over the path. I'm expecting a Darwin award for him sometime soon

P

Itsfixed

Hmm. Agree with sentiments in the main but I think many 'thinking' cyclists are caught between a strict adherence to the rules of the road as it pertains to cyclsts, and frustration at how certain parts of the road system are geared very much towards accomodating cars and pedestrians, but not cyclists.

I'm all for a more selective approach to the Highway code as it pertains to cyclists, such as that expoused in this article (albeit by a UK journalist).

For instance, if you come to a straightforward red light, with no intersection, just there for pedestrians, and there are no pedestrians waiting, I would cycle through. If there are pedestrians waiting to cross, of course i would stop.

Things like that.

Membrane

daymobrew wrote:

I must admit that the quality of cyclists in the city is brutal! Red lights are frequently broken, turns/merges into traffic when cars are near (which must be freaky for the motorist) and footpaths mounted without concern for pedestrians (it's quite frightening when a cyclist cycles past at speed).

I wouldn't fully agree with your classification of what constitutes "bad behaviour". For example I frequently ignore red lights. Typical examples are going straight ahead at a T-junction, or turning left at a T-junction. As long as care is taken not to hinder or endanger other traffic and you give way to any pedestrians crossing, I reject the notion that doing so is dangerous. In the Netherlands signs typically exempt cyclists from having to obey traffic lights for similar situations. If it is considered safe there, why suddenly would it be dangerous here?

There is an argument to say that it pisses off other road users (typicaly cagers) and thereby causes resentment towards cyclists, but that's an issue to be resolved by creating more sensible rules for cyclists.

I doubt if cycling safety training for kids would have a noticable impact on their behaviour as adults.

Promoting bicycle commuting requires many things, some examples:

More sensible planning to bring down work - home travelling distances
Vastly reducing the risk of bicycle theft
Work facilities such as secure and dry bicycle parking, changing rooms with lockers, showers
Better quality road facilities
More sensible road rules for cyclists
More protection for cyclist in law (e.g. barring Bull-bars)

youcancallmeal

To be honest after spending the last 7 years cycling the same route in and out of Dublin City I couldnt care less any more and will break red lights, cycle on footpaths and dart in and out of traffic as I see fit. I wasn't always this cynical but I don't believe anything said here will change the fact that some motorists are simply poor drivers with no awareness of other road users and some pedestrians will step out onto a road expecting everything to stop for them. I've seen so much ignorance and pure lack of consideration for mine and other peoples safety over the years that I look after number one now and treat Irish roads exactly like what they are, a competition to get from A to B in as fast amount as time as possible.

Trampas

Has anyone else notice the increase of mopeds breaking red lights like cyclist.

Raam

youcancallme>al wrote:

I've seen so much ignorance and pure lack of consideration for mine and other peoples safety over the years that I look after number one now and treat Irish roads exactly like what they are, a competition to get from A to B in as fast amount as time as possible.

perhaps some of these poor drivers and pedestrians have adopted a similar stance to yours. Just a thought.

I prefer to follow the rules as best I can. That way I am behaving in an expected fashion and other road users can better anticipate what I am going to do. Unfortunately, there will always be incidents, but I feel that by following the rules, I am reducing the likelihood of an incident occurring.

P

markpb

Itsfixed wrote:

I'm all for a more selective approach to the Highway code as it pertains to cyclists, such as that expoused in this article (albeit by a UK journalist).

For instance, if you come to a straightforward red light, with no intersection, just there for pedestrians, and there are no pedestrians waiting, I would cycle through. If there are pedestrians waiting to cross, of course i would stop.

If this could be done, it would be the perfect solution!

It's worth pointing out that in parts of America, drivers are free to pass red lights at pedestrian crossings once the pedestrians have finished crossing that lane. They're also allowed to turn right on red if it's safe to do so. As long as people use their heads it work's very well. Pedestrian lights can go green more often and there's less time spent waiting at a pedestrian crossing with no-one crossing.

The problem at the moment seems to be that everyone assumes drivers are rude and rubbish so the system is designed to accomodate that. Long amber periods, dead time between red and greeen, lights to allow traffic to merge where courtesy would be more effecient.

Raam

Trampas wrote:

Has anyone else notice the increase of mopeds breaking red lights like cyclist.

Not a moped, but, this morning I saw a car stop at a red light on a main road where there is a T junction. I was stopped along side them. The driver then decided to drive through the junction just as the cars from the adjoining road on the left were turning onto the main road (they had the lights). Nobody even bothered to beep the driver

el tel

King Raam wrote:

Nobody even bothered to beep the driver

I've noticed that loads, whereby everyone seems indifferent about what anyone else is doing regardless how insane it is. Rarely in Dublin, or at least in the part of town where I live, do I see anyone lose their heads over near misses as a result of drivers, riders or pedestrians acting like gimps. Maybe this stoical attitude helps people keep their cool but afforementioned behaviour has become the acceptable norm as a result.

Ghost Rider

I agree. While many cyclists take foolish risks or are simply inconsiderate to others, I don't think the solution is for all cyclists to adhere slavishly to the rules of the road. It's all too obvious that many elements of traffic management (such as traffic lights and one-way-streets) are there to address problems caused purely by motorists. Thus, it behoves everyone, particularly law enforcement agencies, to take a broad-minded, pragmatic view when it comes to cyclists. (I firmly believe the law should be enforced quite literally when it comes to motorists, however. That's not because I hate motorists, it's because I think the risks they pose to themselves and others are so great that a strict code of behaviour is essential.)

That's not to say The Rules Of The Road should be ignored by cyclists; it's merely to suggest cyclists think of it less as a set of orders and more as a guide to safe and considerate cycling - less as law, more as protocol.

Every cyclist knows there are times when turning left on a red light is perfectly safe and there are times when it is hazardous, either to the cyclist himself or to pedestrians attempting to cross. As in all things, judgement is central.

Itsfixed wrote:

Hmm. Agree with sentiments in the main but I think many 'thinking' cyclists are caught between a strict adherence to the rules of the road as it pertains to cyclsts, and frustration at how certain parts of the road system are geared very much towards accomodating cars and pedestrians, but not cyclists.

I'm all for a more selective approach to the Highway code as it pertains to cyclists, such as that expoused in this article (albeit by a UK journalist).

For instance, if you come to a straightforward red light, with no intersection, just there for pedestrians, and there are no pedestrians waiting, I would cycle through. If there are pedestrians waiting to cross, of course i would stop.

Things like that.

Cabaal

King Raam wrote:

There's some other feller who cycles along with his hands behind his back, with his earphones in, weaving all over the path. I'm expecting a Darwin award for him sometime soon

P

No harm to be honest, gives people a bad name doing that type of thing

Cabaal

I try to follow the rules best as I can, I tend not to cycle on footpaths were ever possiabl;e, exceptions to this are...slow/weavy cyclists in front of me that make it dangerous to pass them out, if I come across one of these I might jump onto a path to overtake and then back onto the road
or
cars that drive too close to the side of the road making it next ti impossiable to get by.

Within the last week I've had two run-ins with cars, one nearly knocking me off my bike as it pulled out and overtook a car on the inside without bothering to look, I shouted after him with abuse and then he sped up and stopped dead along side me, this of course was extremely dangerous to cars behind him.

Also when I come upto the main roundabout on my route to work I always make sure to sit myself in the middle of the lane going onto the roundabout so cars have a less chance of not seeing me or hitting me, except I've twice gotten the same van driver who stops in the lane next to me as far out as he can so I can't see ongoing traffic then he pulls out infront into my name and takes off like a shot.....bloody muppet, anybody else has the sense to stay behind me.

youcancallmeal

Cabaal wrote:

Within the last week I've had two run-ins with cars, one nearly knocking me off my bike as it pulled out and overtook a car on the inside without bothering to look, I shouted after him with abuse and then he sped up and stopped dead along side me, this of course was extremely dangerous to cars behind him.

Also when I come upto the main roundabout on my route to work I always make sure to sit myself in the middle of the lane going onto the roundabout so cars have a less chance of not seeing me or hitting me, except I've twice gotten the same van driver who stops in the lane next to me as far out as he can so I can't see ongoing traffic then he pulls out infront into my name and takes off like a shot.....bloody muppet, anybody else has the sense to stay behind me.

Imagine this kind of thing happening to you at least once a day, would it not really dishearten you?

Ghost Rider

Dishearten and/or kill...

youcancallme>al wrote:

Imagine this kind of thing happening to you at least once a day, would it not really dishearten you?

Trojan

We need road-user education about bikes and their place and rights within the road system.

I admit I've become fairly selfish in the way that I cycle now, very defensively. I obey red lights about 80% of the time (normally because I need the rest!).

I think the repeated lack of respect from motorists to a cyclist like me, trying to do the right thing has turned me into a road warrior. I've had cars cut me off hundreds of times, nearly been doored many times because I was being pushed into the parked lane by traffic, had cars over take me on the right when I was in the middle of actually turning right from the centre of the lane (that was scary). So I try do my best to not be a bitter and selfish cyclist, but sometimes, well f#ck it

tywy

Everywhere but Ireland seem to have the right idea about cyclists. Instead of trying to change their actions, they accomodate them. One example in Dublin city is the cycle lane around stephen's green. There should be a designated cycle path through the park with sufficient warnings for pedestrians. In Montreal there was a cycle path through the city that took the shortest distance from A to B. It was on the road sometimes and not at other times. Same in Germany.

People should be supporting cyclists. Could you imagine if every cyclist decided on Monday that instead of cycling to work/college/school or whatever that they'd drive, the traffic would be crap. I think the government need to do something about educating drivers about cyclists, checking the left wing mirror for example, and need to make cycling more convenient and safe. I know a lot of people in college aren't "allowed" cycle into college because their parents see it as very dangerous. So what do those people do? Hop in their car and drive.

daymobrew

youcancallme>al wrote:

Imagine this kind of thing happening to you at least once a day, would it not really dishearten you?

It is of course very annoying and somewhat disheartening. I would probably never stop cycling because I love it so much, and the alternative modes of transport are not as attractive.

Another thing to remember is TrafficWatch 1890-205-805. I ring them a lot. Some of the operators recognise my name
I've said before that followup by Gardai is inconsistent but some of the incidents are acted on. Even a caution might make drivers think.

King Raam wrote:

Nobody even bothered to beep the driver

el tel wrote:

Maybe this stoical attitude helps people keep their cool but afforementioned behaviour has become the acceptable norm as a result.

el tel is probably right. I'm quite the opposite when I drive. I'm like a NY cabbie.

Membrane wrote:

For example I frequently ignore red lights. Typical examples are going straight ahead at a T-junction, or turning left at a T-junction.

While I understand your point of view, I feel that any violations of the law, further annoys other road users and erodes any respect law abiding cyclists have earned. Though, like other posters here who have have become cynical over the years, I'm not sure I can credit the other users with enough IQ to notice the good behaviour.

Raam

youcancallme>al wrote:

Imagine this kind of thing happening to you at least once a day, would it not really dishearten you?

It really is so annoying and does make you despair. Turning right at big junctions or on a roundabout can be a nightmare

Raam

daymobrew wrote:

Though, like other posters here who have have become cynical over the years, I'm not sure I can credit the other users with enough IQ to notice the good behaviour.

I think most people would tend not to notice the cyclist who adheres to the rules. It is always the more annoying/bizarre behavior that catches your eye and sticks with you. That said I swear that some people look at me funny when I don't go through red lights. It's almost as if I am expected to break it.

Itsfixed

King Raam wrote:

I think most people would tend not to notice the cyclist who adheres to the rules. It is always the more annoying/bizarre behavior that catches your eye and sticks with you. That said I swear that some people look at me funny when I don't go through red lights. It's almost as if I am expected to break it.

Nice to know that I'm not the only one who thinks this. On those days when I'm in no hurry and choose to stop at red lights that i usually ignore, while others sail past, i feel almost saintly.....

DirkVoodoo

I agree with youcancallme>al.

When you get overtaken pretty wrecklessly by drivers trying to squeeze past you on a regular basis, cars parking on cycle lanes because they don't want to obstruct buses but have no regard for cyclists and pedestrians who stroll across cycle lanes without looking, its easy to develop a cynical "me against the world" attitude.

However, we may gain more respect as a collective group by adhering to the law and letting motorists know we are a responsible bunch. I admit to breaking red lights at pedestrian crossings having checked the way is clear.

It is also the governments responsibility to protect cyclists with better quality cycle lanes (im sorry, but some of them are atrocious and in dire need of repair) and I believe that educating cyclists about respecting traffic laws will save far more people than helmets.

markpb

Trojan wrote:

I admit I've become fairly selfish in the way that I cycle now, very defensively. I obey red lights about 80% of the time (normally because I need the rest!).

I've been (commute) cycling for about two years and I'm the same. I don't think it's selfish though, it's safe. Things like moving to the middle of the lane to stop unsafe over-taking or not using the cycle lane when it's not safe to do so are just common sense.

daymobrew wrote:

I ring them a lot. Some of the operators recognise my name

You've got to admit, Daymobrew is a pretty unique name

Civilian_Target

In the main, I agree with the sentiments here that there a lot of rule breaking cyclists but I will say this for free: I have no time for a cyclist who breaks any light. Even the pedestrian ones.

I've seen pedestrians be hit by cyclists and I've seen cyclists hit other cyclists, and it's just retarded. Every time its happened there's been a cyclist in the wrong. (I've actually never seen a car hit a cyclist except for the time when a car hit me.) You're not in that much of a hurry, so why not just keep to the rules of the road, unless doing so threatens your personal safety? All the winding up is making you fitter anyway

When I see cyclists plough through the top of T junctions, through zebra crossings and pedestrian lights, I always hope they never get their comeupance. I can only imagine the shame in hitting some old lady on her green light.

One things for sure: I live in London and I sure as hell miss trafficwatch. Some of the bus drivers in particular over here are apalling - gives you an appreciation of how great Dublin Bus drivers really are!

[EDIT]Its worth saying, I take Trojan's approach on defensive cyclists - except I'd call it assertive cycling! I always hold road position so that there's at least a bike's-width between me and the kerb. I always clearly block the passage of cars at lights to ensure that I can take off safely and I often clearly assert myself at junctions by looking drivers turning onto my road who do not have right-of-way straight in the eye - a very effective technique. In short - I think for your own safety, its very important to be a decisive and assertive road user: take your position and stick to it.

Trojan

Yeah I cycle pretty assertively, but there's only so assertive you can be when you get some dipsh!t threatening you with 2 tonnes of metal because you took the lane and he thinks you should be in the gutter.

I generally stop at lights because I'm exhausted and need to catch breath, because I normally try to do 15-18mph in traffic to keep 'em happy and make it easier to keep my lane position. They generally respect fast moving bikes (and even if they don't we're too fast for them to do anything about it).

I normally cycle about 3-6 ft from gutter. In an on-road cycle lane I'm right on outside, I don't normally take off-road (on-pavement) cycle lanes for safety reasons. The exception is when I'm going uphill for a distance - I know I'll be moving significantly slower than traffic.

RuggieBear

A friend of mines stepfather was killed by a cyclist going the wrong way down a one way street (Pembroke street in Dublin)....got knocked to the ground, banged his head off the pavement and never woke up again.

Just coz it's a bike doesn't mean that not obeying the rules of the road will have no consequences for others

DadaKopf

RuggieBear wrote:

A friend of mines stepfather was killed by a cyclist going the wrong way down a one way street (Pembroke street in Dublin)....got knocked to the ground, banged his head off the pavement and never woke up again.

Just coz it's a bike doesn't mean that not obeying the rules of the road will have no consequences for others

Exactly. And I just found out a colleague of mine was killed cycling down Wolfe Tone Quay by a skip truck this week. She was extremely safety-conscious, and it just goes to show how cyclists are made more vulnerable by idiotic, stupid, impatient drivers.

I'm now frightened to cycle. No matter how well you know a route, you're vulnerable at every turn.

How many deaths will it take for something to be done?

Civilian_Target

I'm sorry to hear that Dada, but I'd have to tell you no safety concious cyclist would ever cycle down the quays - they're a complete death trap and several cyclists get killed on them every year. Don't let it put you off cycling, just let it stop you from ever cycling the quays on a bike.

It does illustrate the need for city cycle routes in Dublin, there's no reason why they shouldn't have installed one at the same time as the Luas, running parallel to it. Another opportunity missed...

ferdi

i would say, like civilian traget, that i am an assertive cyclist - i make sure i am safe. but i also do not break red lights and stay off the path unless absolutely needed (rare).

Stark

There are many situations when you're in the car and it looks like it would make perfect sense to go through a red light as there's nothing around. It's still illegal though and cycle groups would probably be the first ones to be in uproar over it.

Although I have seen cars ignoring red lights when turning left more and more these days. I once got beeped out of it while waiting to turn left at a red light because the **** in the BMW behind me wanted to go through. (It would have been safe but still illegal).

On a side note, I notice Labour promised to make cycling a priority issue today (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHAUQLMHKFGB&rss=rss1). If they actually do plan on providing safe cycle routes through the city, they have my vote