Manchester United and Chelsea fans....

Dun laoire

as you are well aware you are still up for three major trophies. Which is the most important to you? If you could pick one right now which would you choose and why?

Mitch Connor

Premiership. hands down, no doubt in my mind. FA Cup is a bonus to a season, and i never even considered the CL a possibility this season, so making the semi's is a fantastic return already, imo.

bucks73

Premiership. Either cup would be a bonus. Would gladly swap both cups for the league.

Davidth88

TBH Champs league for me ( and I hope Chelsea )

WOn the league twice now , and I don't think we can now make up the effective 4 points ( including GD ) for the league

The FA cup would be the icing on the cake now. By the way does anyone know is there still a European place for the FAC winners ? In which case who would this drop to now ( considering that unless there is a world war both CFC and MUFC are in CL next year )

Vokes

^FA Cup winner gets UEFA Cup spot, so that'll go to 7th place in the league now.

PHB

Yeh, it goes to 7th place in the league now, cause both the teams in the final are gona be in the CL.

I'd pick league, hands down, as I feel it's a true test of skill.

To be honest, if we aren't going to win the CL, i'd rather go out to Milan in the semi :P That said, I honastly believe if we play Chelsea 3 times, we can beat them three times. I'd rather play Liverpool in the final though.
Liverpool United final would be titanic, and both sets of fans would never ever ever let the other set of fans live it down
To be honest, I'm happy to have won a knockout tie in the CL this year, which hasn't happened in a long time, so if we get knocked out in the semi, I won't be too disappointed.

Priorities:
League
CL
Fa Cup

League is by far the most important, a true test of skill imo.

SCULLY

I'm still enjoying the relative novelty of winning the league and would settle for that!! However, I think the most important one for Chelsea must be the Champions league, only because I think thay have a more realistic chance of winning it than the league (- we win our remaining CL games we win the cup - same can't be said for the league). At the moment the FA Cup doesn't matter but come wembly day whoever looses will be gutted (regardless of what they will say!!).

My predictions (which will come back to haunt me I'm sure)
League : Man Utd
C/L : Milan
FA Cup : Chelsea (toss of a coin really though)

I think that with only a few weeks left of the season to be still in all 3 competitions is something special - the fact that 2 english sides are in the same position is incredible. The Chelsea quadruple is still a possibility...until this weekend anyway!!

Dun laoire

Whats interesting is while it's still very early into the thread already the United support are swaying toward the premiership and Chelsea are for CL. Not surprising the FA cup hasnt got a mention. I'd love to set up a poll of six options.



Man U Fan FA cup
Man U Fan Prem
Man U Fan CL

Chelsea Fan FA cup
Chelsea Fan Prem
Chelsea Fan CL


but i dont now how:o

shane86

While I would love to see Chelsea knock Man U off the top for the prem cant really see how anyone would rather their team win a national rather than a Europe wide title Fear of facing Liverpool in the CL maybe?

As long as Man U dont win the CL I dont care if they do win the prem (well, Id rather they didnt, but winning the prem and going out next round in CL is the lesser of two evils).

Davidth88

Hi,

Thinking about this actually , to win the league after the season we have had would be amazing , but as I said in my earlier post I think with three real points and an effective point between us ...... not going to happen.

So I would settle certainly for the CL , to say settle for that is pretty daft isn't it Its the more attainable TBH ( I have already written the league off in my head )

The FA cup matters for one day , how things change in a decade eh ! In 1997 I remember partying down the Fulham road until the early hours after winning the cup.

PHB

but i dont now how

Click on 'Thread Tools', then add a poll option.

---

As for the CL, I just think, say if United got Chelsea in the CL Final.

Then it was a choice between,

The League
The FA Cup - Utd. vs. Chelsea
The CL Final - Utd. vs. Chelsea

If I had a choice, I'd pick the league over the CL and the FA Cup.

Aside from the fact that we havn't won the league in far too long, I think if at the end of the season, United held the league, Chelsea held the CL and the FA Cup, I would believe that United were better than Chelsea that season, and that they were the better squad overall.
Obviously it wouldn't be great if Chelsea won the other two, and we won the league, but if I had the flat choice, i'd be happy with that.

I think the double is clearly on for United.
If we can get past Milan, which is no easy feat, then in two cup finals against Chelsea, I think we will win at least one.

What's funny is, assuming we win the league,
the skill involved in beating Chelsea in the FA Cup vs. the CL is the same.
Winning either match requires the same set of skills.
Yet winning the CL will be seen as more prestigous Funny world really

Dun laoire

PHB wrote:

Click on 'Thread Tools', then add a poll option.

---

Beautiful

Necronomicon

The league, because it's been so long, then the Champion's League, because there's still so much to do and to do it would be incredible.

raido9

Utd fan here. Have to go for the league, no question about it. Anything else would be a bonus

Brian017

The league without a doubt.

Fanny Cradock

Lets face it the CL is FAR more prestigious and financially rewarding than any league.

PHB

I just totally disagree.
Look at the year that Chelsea won the League and Liverpool won the CL.

Chelsea were not only the better team that year, it was a much better indicator of future success, both in the league (which Chelsea won and Liverpool came 3rd) and the CL (in which Liverpool went out to Benfica)

Fanny Cradock

It's your right to disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that for global recognition, and all the financial rewards that go along with it, you need to win the CL. Go ahead and argue that it requires more ability to win certain leagues than the CL. That, however, was not the point of my post.

As an example, I rarely hear Porto discussed, but after one night in 2004 they were the talk of Europe (for a while).

ROCKMAN

As a UTD fan it has to be the league, the other two will be a nice bonus

PHB

But where are Porto now?
They won it two years ago, and they have all but disappeared from the world stage.
Take in contrast, the clubs that won the big leagues that year, how are they doing?

Thanx 4 The Fish

PHB wrote:

I just totally disagree.
Look at the year that Chelsea won the League and Liverpool won the CL.

Chelsea were not only the better team that year, it was a much better indicator of future success, both in the league (which Chelsea won and Liverpool came 3rd) and the CL (in which Liverpool went out to Benfica)

Is that the same year that Man United came second in the league and then got knocked out of the Champions league in the group stages.

Yeah now I see the water leaking out of the container that held your argument.

BKtje

i don't get your point T4TF.
How does man u doing badly in the CL and coming 2nd make his point less valid?

Fanny Cradock

PHB wrote:

But where are Porto now?
They won it two years ago, and they have all but disappeared from the world stage.
Take in contrast, the clubs that won the big leagues that year, how are they doing?

I'm not sure what your point is. Let me clear this up once and for all: the CL has huge cash incentives - e.g. prize money - as well as the prestige, which also brings in massive monies by way of merchandising. If anything, the fact that Porto have disappeared back into the obscurity of their own league, and off the world stage, proves the importance of doing well in the CL. Ask Del Bosque and see what he says

I really don't know why I'm bothering to argue over a non-issue. I'm not slagging the PL or devaluing it's worth. I'm merely stating the importance teams place on qualifying for - and possibly winning - European competitions

leninbenjamin

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Is that the same year that Man United came second in the league and then got knocked out of the Champions league in the group stages.

Yeah now I see the water leaking out of the container that held your argument.

i don't get it either. if anything it justifies his argument that Champions league football is not [Edit: as good] a reflection of skill, it being the opposite scenario of liverpool, a team underperforming in the Champions league. In all honesty the top 2 (if not 3) teams of at least Italy, Spain and England should make it into the last 16 if it were a true reflection of across the board skill levels...

and btw, weren't Man Utd knocked out the the last 16 by Milan that year?

my own personal opinion on the matter is that Prem and CL are pretty much of equal value, and emphasize different skill sets. If anything the CL is more prestigious (champ League wins tend to be remembered a lot more than domestic wins).

PHB

You're right, it's not entirely deterministic, nor did I suggest it way.
United came 2nd that year then did **** in the CL the following year.

But let's just take the last three years.

Chelsea:
Premiership: 1st
CL: Semis (Liverpool)
Premiership: 1st
CL: First Knockout (Barca)
Premiership: 2nd(currently)
CL: Semis

Man Utd:
Premiership: 2nd
CL: First Knockout(Milan)
Premiership: 2nd
CL: Group
Premiership: 1st(currently)
CL: Semis

Liverpool:
Premiership: 5th
CL: Winners
Premiership: 3rd
CL: First Knockout(Benfica)
Premiership: 3rd(currently)
CL: Semis

As you can see, since that year, Man Utd and Chelsea have done better overall than Liverpool.
It isn't set in stone, it's not just deterministic, but it's a much much better indicator.

zAbbo

The CL is irrelevant until ManU win it, it's only a mickey mouse cup which is devalued by teams who aren't ManU winning it, because they're the very best team in the whole wide world.

I'd say a team like Milan winning the CL in 2003, runners up in 2005, Scudetto in 2004, runners up in 2005, Super Coppa di Lega in 2005, Runners up in 2003, European Super Cup in 2003, World Club Championship runner up in 2003 is a fair reflection of 'skill' to a team/squad.

Doesn't really matter which 'you' value more, The European Cup is the pinnacle of football in Europe.

growler

I'd be very happy with a chelsea league win, both the CL and the cup though nice bits of silverware are less of a test than the league, plus the bragging value of stealing a league from Man U at this stage in the league are worth a whole lot more than an FA Cup.

That said, its not going to be the end of our season should the league challenge end this weekend, getting to a CL final is (would be) a huge step forward for chelsea and in any knockout final we'll have a great chance regardless of the opposition.

The FA Cup has a more sentimental value, the trip to wembley will be a media circus but the value of the trophy (as a measure of skill etc) isn't anywhere near that of the other two.



So i'll settle for a champions league (if wew cant have the league first) this year really.

Mr.Nice Guy

I hope Man Utd win the league more than anything. I feel it would be their most impressive win yet and I'd love to hear Mourinho begrudgingly praising their accomplishment.

ronbyrne2005

I think most man utd fans want to win league as chelsea had such a stranglehold for last few seasons and looked odds on to win it this season again .Also you see league games week in week out so its more important in that way. Also once you get out of a group in champions league , a favorable draw and right tactics can get an average team to semi or finals in europe. In top leagues in Europe to be in top 2/3/4 you have to have a very consistent season and not just play cup football. Also the rivalries in domestic leagues is much stronger than in European competition.

zAbbo

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

I think most man utd fans want to win league as chelsea had such a stranglehold for last few seasons and looked odds on to win it this season again .Also you see league games week in week out so its more important in that way. Also once you get out of a group in champions league , a favorable draw and right tactics can get an average team to semi or finals in europe. In top leagues in Europe to be in top 2/3/4 you have to have a very consistent season and not just play cup football. Also the rivalries in domestic leagues is much stronger than in European competition.

What 'average' teams have got to the semi and final recently? thats absurd, especially as you're saying a consistent side finishes 2/3/4 which would qualify them for the CL in the first place.

Is there some kinda perception that the CL is easy to win, absolute insult to the teams who've won it. Juve had an excellent team from 96-99, yet only won it once, runners up twice, and semi's once, yeah, twarted by 'average' teams, Dortmund(97), Real(98) and ManuU (99)

Complete bollocks

PHB

It's not that it easy to win, it's still ****ing hard to win, just not as hard as the league.

I believe if instead of semis, we had a top 4 league, where they all played each other twice, 6 games in total, we'd have much different more accurate results.

Dave!

Not many Chelsea fans in the hizouse!

Man Utd - Premiership

Had to think about it though! I'm not that pushed about the FA cup cos of the poor quality of teams that were in the later stages. It's not much to brag about that we beat Watford, Middlesborough, Reading, etc. to win it.
The Champions League would be pretty sweet, but I'd rather the Premiership because of the prolonged friction between Utd and Chelsea or the whole season. Wouldn't fancy lettin them have it after all that Liverpool or Milan could just as easily win the CL, so it's not a 2-horse race like the Prem.

besty

Premiership for United please!

The Muppet

The league is always harder to win than any of the cup competitions . Since the Champions League changed its format its harder to win but the premiership is still the true test of a team .

Thanx 4 The Fish

How can it be the true test of a team ? Does that then mean that the best team Europe comes from England because the premiership is the true test of a team ? The way to determine the best team in europe is to allow them to play one another perhaps in a league format early on then allow the best teams in that league to compete in a knockout competition. Oh wait there, they already do that.

Mitch Connor

zabbo wrote:

What 'average' teams have got to the semi and final recently?
Complete bollocks

Porto, Monaco, PSV

Mitch Connor

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

How can it be the true test of a team ? Does that then mean that the best team Europe comes from England because the premiership is the true test of a team ? The way to determine the best team in europe is to allow them to play one another perhaps in a league format early on then allow the best teams in that league to compete in a knockout competition. Oh wait there, they already do that.

but liverpool won the cl - and finished 5th in the same season - how can they be the best team in europe if they weren't even the best team in their own league?

In fact, continuing that logic would mean the winners of the FA Cup should be considered to be the best team in england - cause they were in a competition that included every team in england, not just 20 of them....

PHB

No, the way to determine the best team in Europe is to have the best teams in the league compete against each other in a league.

Look at it this way.
Best team in England is

The team that wins the league OR the team that wins the FA Cup

Both have all the top teams in the country in it, but the league is quite clearly, clearly, the real test of skill there.
Leagues vs. Cups with the same teams, league is the real prize.

However, Leagues vs. Cups with different teams, is much harder to determine.
This isn't a dead cert science, it's just an indicator.

If the CL was a league, there is no doubt that the team that won it would be the best team, but it's a cup.

You can't really determine the best team in Europe through a cup imo. It'll do it lots of the time, but not all of the time. It's a cup, upsets happen, upsets that would be balanced out over the course of the league.

However, if there are two teams in the same league, one who wins the league (with worse teams), and one who wins the cup(with better teams), I'd still believe that the one that won the league, is the better team.

The group stages have become all but a formality for the top teams in Europe, and if they don't qualify for the knockout tie, it is a shocking performance.

From that last 16, you have to beat
4 teams (3 of them in two legs)
to win the cup.

Let's just make it very simple really,
in the year when Chelsea won the league, and Liverpool won the CL, who were the best team in Europe?

Chelsea for me.

Thanx 4 The Fish

I will say it once again. The league is not the true test of skill. It is the true test of consistency. Bolton have not got very many skilful players but are pushing into the top four in the league. The league determines what team over the year has the best squad, has had the least injuries (or best strength in depth) and has turned up in the big games in the season...

And if chelsea were the best team in Europe the year that L'pool won the CL, then how come they were beaten over two games and could not score in almost two hundred minutes of football (the same amount of games they would played each other in a league) Were they not beaten by a better team over those two legs ?

PHB

I will say it once again. The league is not the true test of skill. It is the true test of consistency. Bolton have not got very many skilful players but are pushing into the top four in the league. The league determines what team over the year has the best squad, has had the least injuries (or best strength in depth) and has turned up in the big games in the season...

Those three things you just mentined are determined by cups aswell.
The only difference between leagues and cups is that they are not knockout ties, and everybody plays everybody, and while theres not a perfect balance, it's the closest you'll get to a fair competition, which determines true skill.

And if chelsea were the best team in Europe the year that L'pool won the CL, then how come they were beaten over two games and could not score in almost two hundred minutes of football (the same amount of games they would played each other in a league) Were they not beaten by a better team over those two legs ?

Because the best team doesn't always win. In a cup, anything can happen.

Here, Chelsea lost to Newcastle that year in the FA cup, does that mean Newcastle are a better team than them?

Liverpool beat Chelsea in a cup game, albeit over two legs, which makes it fairer than just one leg, but Liverpool's result is comparable to Newcastles result.

If I'm not mistaken, Arsenal beat Liverpool that year in the cup.
Does that not mean that they were a better team than Liverpool?

One-off knockout ties does not really reflect who is the better team.

Mitch Connor

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

I will say it once again. The league is not the true test of skill. It is the true test of consistency. Bolton have not got very many skilful players but are pushing into the top four in the league. The league determines what team over the year has the best squad, has had the least injuries (or best strength in depth) and has turned up in the big games in the season...

And if chelsea were the best team in Europe the year that L'pool won the CL, then how come they were beaten over two games and could not score in almost two hundred minutes of football (the same amount of games they would played each other in a league) Were they not beaten by a better team over those two legs ?

So if millwall had beaten United in the FA Cup a few seasons ago - would they have been the best team in England? Were United the best team in England because they won the FA Cup that season? Were Liverpool the best team in england last season, they did win the FA Cup afterall - and just like the CL, it is a cup competition...

RasTa

For some reason I want the Champions League this season, maybe it's in the back of my mind that the league is won.

The Muppet

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

How can it be the true test of a team ? Does that then mean that the best team Europe comes from England because the premiership is the true test of a team ? The way to determine the best team in europe is to allow them to play one another perhaps in a league format early on then allow the best teams in that league to compete in a knockout competition. Oh wait there, they already do that.

There is no competition that will currently show the best team in Europe. The best way to do that is to have a prolonged league competition with all the top teams from the best leagues competeing against each other. Knock out competitions will always produce shocks , bad decisions etc etc where as in leagu comps they usually even themselves out over the competiion.

As tauren illustrated not even Liverpool fans believe they were the best team in europe the last time they won it, or do you? (thats not intened to belittle their achevement but it is honestly the best example I can think of to illustrate my point)

West Ham Beat Arsenal twice this season , does that mean they are a better team that them? Using your logic it does .

zAbbo

Tauren wrote:

Porto, Monaco, PSV

Mourinho's Porto in 04? who beat Utd in the 2nd round, Lyon, a decent Deportivo side (La Liga winners in 00, Runners up 01, 3rd in 03 and 04 and had just made an amazing comeback against Milan 4-1 down in 1st leg and won 4-0 in 2nd and had already beaten Juve !)

Yeah really average, same side had 5-6 (Deco, Carvalho, Paulo Ferreira, Costinha, Maniche and Nuno Valente ) of Portugals Squad (who were runners up in Euro 04')

Yeah real amateurs, totally average, the fact that the Porto squad disbanded after winning the holy grail, doesn't make them any less of an excellent team, and calling them 'average' shows your knowledge of football.

Mitch Connor

zabbo wrote:

Mourinho's Porto in 04? who beat Utd in the 2nd round, Lyon, a decent Deportivo side (La Liga winners in 00, Runners up 01, 3rd in 03 and 04 and had just made an amazing comeback against Milan 4-1 down in 1st leg and won 4-0 in 2nd and had already beaten Juve !)

Yeah really average, same side had 5-6 (Deco, Carvalho, Paulo Ferreira, Costinha, Maniche and Nuno Valente ) of Portugals Squad (who were runners up in Euro 04')

Yeah real amateurs, totally average, the fact that the Porto squad disbanded after winning the holy grail, doesn't make them any less of an excellent team, and calling them 'average' shows your knowledge of football.

they were average - and had it not been for a shocking call in the game agasint united, they would have been out. They were an average side with 1 or two decent players. How are the likes of Ferreira Costinha Maniche and Valente doing now? Stars for the top sides in europe? NNNNNNNOOOOOOOPE.

The Muppet

zabbo wrote:

Mourinho's Porto in 04? who beat Utd in the 2nd round, Lyon, a decent Deportivo side

Beat united with with the help of a blatently incorrect offside call by one of the third officials. An excellent example why knockout competitions can not be not an accurate guage of form.

Chucky the tree

The Muppet wrote:

Beat united with with the help of a blatently incorrect offside call by one of the third officials. An excellent example why knockout competitions can not be not an accurate guage of form.

Yea, because incorrect calls are never made in the premiership. I mean, for example, you never the likes of, lets say Sheffield United or Boro not being given penatlies at OT because incorrect decision just dont happen in the PL.

PHB

But in the league, they can even themselves out. For example, despite everyone choosing to forget, Rooney had a pretty dead on penalty against Sheff Utd denied too.

I thought Porto were a pretty good side the year they won it.

hiscan

the premiership because we are only 3 behind liverpools 18

Chucky the tree

PHB wrote:

But in the league, they can even themselves out. For example, despite everyone choosing to forget, Rooney had a pretty dead on penalty against Sheff Utd denied too.

I thought Porto were a pretty good side the year they won it.

but they dont even themselves out in the cl?

PHB

They might, but in a knockout tie, it doesn't matter, since they even themselves out, but that won't help you if you are already gone.