Sinn Féin-the southern elete and the biased media

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

No point closing the thread down as it is generating a debate. I can change the title GabharBrean if you pm me what you would prefer. I didn't split the post from another thread either?

Oh that would have been me in a cut and run drive by mod shooting down of two off topic posts in another thread.
I hope no one was hurt in this incident.
I do of course apologise to any innocent victims and indeed to all the innocent victims of my moderating.

I took the title by the way from what was said in the first post as it seemed to accurately reflect what the post contained.

whippet

Ulster9 wrote:

The old IRA killed plenty civilians alright, RIC, Black and Tans,civil servants and protestants in west cork.War is hell, dont think it was all clean and civil.The naivety on here.

War ... such an excuse for murderer's to stand behind since the 70's ... warrington .. perfectly legit tactical target I suppose, Omagh likewise, pubs etc ... don't try to justify killing men, women and children out shopping or having a drink. I'd love to know the % of IRA targets through out the troubles were military ... isn't that what war is about .. military against military.

please remind me when the cease fire was called by the IRA? and then collate this with the date that Gerry McCabe was shot, the National Irish Bank was robbed .... it does not add up.

Up until recently (i can't seem to find it now) Sinn Fein had t-shirts for sale on its website with 'Crossmaglen - Snipers at work' and the like. Sucm supporting scum.

800 years and all that ... 800 years ago there wasn't even a united ireland .. it was opposing tribes knocking the sh1te out of each other stealing cows and livestock!!


To be honest, anyone with a rational brain sees through the propaganda.

grumpytrousers

Ulster9 wrote:

The issue with the Gerry McCabe murder is a difficult one for republicans to deal with.This is because political parties have played politics with this.I as a republican was disgusted with this killing in Adare and i dont particularly have much sympathy for the men involved.Its a very emotive issue but the harsh reality is that as a result many prisoners were released under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and the supreme court recognises that they are qualifying prisoners but only the Dept. of Justice can release them.
The IRA often robbed banks to fund the continuing struggle in the North but they were forbidden from engaging in armed action with Southern forces so the incident in Adare was disgracefull and tragic.

But see this is where it's hard to have that level of trust...However unpalatable it may be, the fact of the matter is that if we want peace, we have to release prisoners that, to put it mildly, offended our sensitivities. And most of us accept that. Like the widows of murdered RUC constables, they - grudgingly - accept that nobody has a monopoly on grief and move on.

The major problem with the McCabe murder was that there was a CeaseFire. the IRA were to have stood down. there were to be no activities related to the furthering of the objectives of Oglaigh na hEireann by violent means going on. And what did the thuggish cowardly b*stards down in Adare go and do? that's right - they wanted money for booze and fags or whatever, and robbed a bank, murdering in cold blood two upstanding Gardai.

AND THEN had the f*cking nerve to try and hide behind the Good Friday Agreement. Look - whatever the line about 'I was fighting for old Ireland when I blew up a fish shop on the Shankill Road', at least (and i use that in the loosest possible sense) people on the Shankhill knew that there was a campaign of terror on, and that Christ alone knew where the 'Ra were going to hit next.

Adare? Those poor divils didn't stand a chance. And THAT'S why Adare will continually be a thorn in the side of any party that fails to grow the cock and balls necessary to stand up and say 'it was wrong'...

Ulster9

Ulster9 wrote:

What did the old IRA do play with water guns?Where do you think the PIRA got their inspiration from?

Oh you take your inspiration from the early 1900's do you?

Lets not be selective then,we'll ask your GF not to vote untill she is 30.We'll ostracise her if she is seen to be cavorting with you outside of marriage and we'll make sure she doesn't work if she gets married.

Thats just for a start.

My point as always is you cannot cherry pick what you like from nearly a 100 yrs ago or any distant completely different period of society in history and use it to justify what you do today.

If SF went to the electorate with that attitude and their policy was ,it was ok then so it's ok now,the vote they have now grasped together by election workers in deprived areas would collapse when faced with the implications.

kmick

Keeping aside all the historical aspects of the war in Northern Ireland which I am neither learned enough nor interested enough to know about; I would not vote for the Sinn Fein becuase all the candidates I know I dislike

Aengus Ó Snodaigh - Comes across as very dumb. Saw him talking in the dail one day and he struggled to string a coherent sentence together.
Mary Lou McDonald - The Sinn Fein Equivalent of Michael McDowell all snarl and fake smile. Would not vote for McDowell either.

Gerry Adams - I know he is not standing but I find him hard to take. He never strikes me as earnest or believable.

I have to like the people I am voting for. Call me shallow.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

When I saw this thread title I knew before reading it that there was going to be a lot of trenchant shouting across the divide at the other side. I haven't been dissapointed.

In terms of Media bias - anyone who reads the Sunday Independant and thinks "they are fair and objective on the subject of Sinn Feinn and Republicanism" isn't particularly clever and / or honest with themselves.

I am resident in Sean Crowe's constituency and will be giving him a first preference in the upcoming elections. My second and third preferences will go Green and the workers party. I will not be putting a preference down for any of the traditional parties.

Why? On the basis of the current Sinn Feinn manifesto, you couldn't have them in Government. That is to say - their economic arguments are unrealistic and unworkable. However, their driving message of inequality and disatisfaction with the current realities of the celtic Tiger are appealing. Particularly in the area within which I live. I feel the debate between big three is stagnant and unhelpful - and I feel that the differences in how they would run the country are much more minimal than they make out. Sinn Feinn fill a void that exists in the current political debate in this country. I think that they pick up many general protest votes, and they better vocalise and are more in tune with the concerns of the lower income bracket than any of the other parties. As such, I can vote for Sinn Feinn because I want them involved in Irish politics and the issue of them taking a dominant lead in the economic policy of the next government is not realistically at stake in this election.

So they will get my vote.

On the issue of the North, I would be in favour of a 32 county Republic. I abhor all aspects of the paramilitary campaign. But the news over the past year is good. Paramilitary activity is at its lowest levels since the troubles began. Progress is clearly being made, and with every year that passes it becomes less likely that the IRA can ever resume their campaign. The candidates and members of the Southern wing of Sinn Feinn are not IRA men. The link between the two organisations concerns the older and senior wings of the party. But I would point out that if people were to always bury their heads in the sand and choose to never accept that leaders can change and ultimately put violence behind them - then we are essentially paying lip service to the idea that terrorist campaigns can ever be brought to an end: that violent conflicts can ever be fully resolved. Such digging in of the heels effectively ridicules the democratic process.

Now you can break my post down into little quotes and try and point out every little flaw and inaccuracy. But the idea of voting for Finna Fail, Fine Gael, Labour or the PDs just makes me shudder.

oscarBravo

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

On the basis of the current Sinn Feinn manifesto, you couldn't have them in Government. That is to say - their economic arguments are unrealistic and unworkable.

...and yet, you're going to vote for them. What's wrong with this picture?

LuckyLloyd

oscarBravo wrote:

...and yet, you're going to vote for them. What's wrong with this picture?

My vote will essentially be a protest vote. I am comfortable with that idea and understand that it is a product of a general malaise for current Irish politics. And they won't get into government.

gandalf

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

My vote will essentially be a protest vote. I am comfortable with that idea and understand that it is a product of a general malaise for current Irish politics. And they won't get into government.

There are better options if you want to protest vote. There is a high chance that Sinn Fein could hold the balance of power in the next dail and lets be honest if hopping into bed with them is the only way Bertie Ahern gets to be Taoiseach again he'll do it.

Now thats a nightmare scenario in my eyes.

oscarBravo

Fair enough - I think the idea of voting for a party you don't want in government is absurd, but that's just my opinion.

In the unlikely and scary event of them ending up in government - are you willing to accept your share of the blame?

Ulster9

War ... such an excuse for murderer's to stand behind since the 70's ... warrington .. perfectly legit tactical target I suppose, Omagh likewise, pubs etc ... don't try to justify killing men, women and children out shopping or having a drink. I'd love to know the % of IRA targets through out the troubles were military ... isn't that what war is about .. military against military.

please remind me when the cease fire was called by the IRA? and then collate this with the date that Gerry McCabe was shot, the National Irish Bank was robbed .... it does not add up.

Up until recently (i can't seem to find it now) Sinn Fein had t-shirts for sale on its website with 'Crossmaglen - Snipers at work' and the like. Sucm supporting scum.

800 years and all that ... 800 years ago there wasn't even a united ireland .. it was opposing tribes knocking the sh1te out of each other stealing cows and livestock!!

Just for the record the IRA was not on ceasefire at the time Gerry McCabe was shot in June 1996.IRA ceasefire broke down between Feb 1996 and August 1997.Regardless it was wrong and defenceless.
Nobody has ever proved that the IRA robbed the Northern Bank and Martin McGuinness is on record as saying that he regarded those involved as criminals who didnt give a damn about the peace process.
The IRA killed 1,821 people throughout the conflict of these 1013 were members of the security forces.621 were civilian.
Loyalists killed 1021 many assisted with collusion from RUC and 368 killed by security forces directly.
As much as people would like to ignore, the IRA was the only ones doing the killing.If people are gonna make claims here they should know the facts.

brianthebard

I don't think anyone has given loyalists paramilitarys a pardon, but we don't have to face the possiblity of their political wing being in government. Its not part of the topic and I don't think it will add to the debate to further that point.

LuckyLloyd

oscarBravo wrote:

Fair enough - I think the idea of voting for a party you don't want in government is absurd, but that's just my opinion.

In the unlikely and scary event of them ending up in government - are you willing to accept your share of the blame?

IF, and it is a big if, they got into government I think everyone is wise enough to understand that they would hardly push for a full or even partial application of their stated economic positions.

In any case, Sinn Feinn getting that significant a position would arguably be the best thing that happened Irish politics in a long, long time. It could only serve to shake things up - could only serve for people to ask the question: "how did it come to this?". If it convinved people to actually sit up and take notice of what is going on in this country and make an informed vote the next time round it would be a good thing.

However, the reality (and you know this) is that the parties will do a deal that excludes Sinn Feinn. And they will stretch themselves to do it.


My problem is with the fact that we have a government that has rode the wave of a property upsurge and the good economic tidings delivered by the IDA - without taking any proactive action to secure Ireland's current good position with any long - term certainty. I amn't hearing anything from the major opposition parties that would lead me to believe that they will tackle the festering problems in any meaningful way either. So I won't be voting for the status quo - and a blind walk down the road to economic downturn.

gandalf

Ulster9 you're typical of Sinn Fein supporters that have graced this board in the past. When you get into a corner you retreat to the past and quote atrocities and deaths. Well as you like your stats heres a good one for you.

Did the IRA kill more Loyalist Paramilitaries than Republican ones?

Time Magazine

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

...sit up and take notice of what is going on in this country and make an informed vote the next time round it would be a good thing.

The PDs currently have 8 seats and are in government. The Greens and Sinn Féin both expect to have about twelve in three months' times. Until you stop supporting a ludicrous party that face that will have as many seats as the Greens or the PDs but that you don't want in government, I pass on your views on what an informed vote is thanks.

whippet

Ulster9 wrote:

Just for the record the IRA was not on ceasefire at the time Gerry McCabe was shot in June 1996.IRA ceasefire broke down between Feb 1996 and August 1997.Regardless it was wrong and defenceless.
Nobody has ever proved that the IRA robbed the Northern Bank and Martin McGuinness is on record as saying that he regarded those involved as criminals who didnt give a damn about the peace process.
The IRA killed 1,821 people throughout the conflict of these 1013 were members of the security forces.621 were civilian.
Loyalists killed 1021 many assisted with collusion from RUC and 368 killed by security forces directly.
As much as people would like to ignore, the IRA was the only ones doing the killing.If people are gonna make claims here they should know the facts.

oh ... a break down !! .... like that show friends .. we were on a break !! nonsense!!

I know all about how many were butchered and murdered up north, I am married to a belfast girl ... I just know that I won't have anyone from a loyalist paramilitary background knocking on my door looking for a vote ... and what ever way you try to spin it .. the shinners are arm in arm with the IRA and there support for the release of the scum who murdered Gerry McCabe and the silence (until almost forced to speak) on the pub slaughter case puts them in an indefensable position.

My views I know are those of a vast majority of the irish electorate.

As for proving guilt for the bank robbery ... the dogs on the street know it ... money in Daz boxes etc ... and I have no doubt that McGuiness will be on the record denying it .... the majority of prisoners in mountyjoy told the courts they didn't do it !!!

LuckyLloyd

Ibid wrote:

The PDs currently have 8 seats and are in government. The Greens and Sinn Féin both expect to have about twelve in three months' times. Until you stop supporting a ludicrous party that face that will have as many seats as the Greens or the PDs but that you don't want in government, I pass on your views on what an informed vote is thanks.

Well you can pass on my views of an informed vote. Let me ask you this though:

- How many Fina Gael and Labour votes have been subconciously pre - decided in the minds of people who picked up on the kerfuffle, hot wind and accusations that have been thrown around about Bertie Ahern's personal finances and the possibillity of corruption? "People" being those who won't notice much else up to the election.

- How many votes up and down the country will be cast on the redundant reasoning that "I like xxx - always seemed like a decent fella to me"?


You sir are failing to understand my outlook. I find all of the mooted coalition combinations to be unpalatable. I feel that the main points upon which the key parties will concentrate debate upon leading up to the next election on are not the key issues. I don't have a particular preference for which combination happens to broker a deal after scraping the sufficient amount of votes to negotiate prominantly.

I particularly dislike McDowell and the PDs - but I apprecaiate the honesty and open nature in which he presents his opinions. It is easy to know where you stand with him. I think the Green message is now more vital than it ever was - but I don't believe that the likes of Trever Sargeant has the neccesary credentials and competence to run a government.

I believe that Finna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour will all get in and change little with their minds fixed on simply doing enough to secure re - election in 2012.

So I will vote for the party that is most active on the ground in my constituency. I will cast a vote for the one Irish party commited to the cause of a 32 county Republic. And I will vote for the one party that scares people into tuning in when they get votes.

brianthebard

The one party committed to a 32 county republic? You are going to vote for FF?

LuckyLloyd

brianthebard wrote:

The one party committed to a 32 county republic? You are going to vote for FF?

My post should probably read "committed to a 32 county Republic in a real and meaningful fashion unlike other political parties who pay mere lip service to the idea on rare occassions".

But you are clearly sharp and on the ball. So good for you.

brianthebard

Weren't you being a bit unclear about your reasons for voting for SF earlier then? You claimed it was to see a shake up but perhaps its because you want a 32 county republic? Why didn't you just say that?

Time Magazine

UnLuckyLloyd wrote:

Well you can pass on my views of an informed vote. Let me ask you this though:

Fire away.

How many Fina Gael and Labour votes have been subconciously pre - decided in the minds of people who picked up on the kerfuffle, hot wind and accusations that have been thrown around about Bertie Ahern's personal finances and the possibillity of corruption? "People" being those who won't notice much else up to the election.

I've said it on this website several times before and I'll say it again: this is Sinn Féin's main method of debate. Not justification of their own actions, but frankly stupid comparisons to other problems with the world. "How can you justify murdering civilians in a bank in Dublin?" "Well... uh... how can you justify Hiroshima?" Apply this logic to "Voting for a party you don't want to see in government is stupid and dangerous" "Well... uh... I know other stupid people voting for mainstream parties."

My point? It does not matter how other people are voting. Justify your reasons on their own merit.

- How many votes up and down the country will be cast on the redundant reasoning that "I like xxx - always seemed like a decent fella to me"?

Ibid.

You sir are failing to understand my outlook. I find all of the mooted coalition combinations to be unpalatable.

Then either run yourself or throw your backing to what you feel is the best horse. I'm not perfectly happy with an FG/Lab/Green coalition, I can see me rolling my eyes at a few future policy decisions, but I will still support them as I think they're the best viable option.

I feel that the main points upon which the key parties will concentrate debate upon leading up to the next election on are not the key issues. I don't have a particular preference for which combination happens to broker a deal after scraping the sufficient amount of votes to negotiate prominantly.

This is not grounds for voting for a bunch of criminalistic political retards who base their policies on pure rhetoric. The laughable "Social Economy" being a case in point. Why not just call it a the "Big Happy Wealthy Society" policy?

I particularly dislike McDowell and the PDs - but I apprecaiate the honesty and open nature in which he presents his opinions. It is easy to know where you stand with him. I think the Green message is now more vital than it ever was - but I don't believe that the likes of Trever Sargeant has the neccesary credentials and competence to run a government.

You don't think Trevor Sargent is capable of being in government (with ~12 seats there isn't a hope in hell of him running one); nor do you think Caoimhín O'Crayon would be capable; but you're voting SF?

As I said, I don't consider that informed voting.

I believe that Finna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour will all get in and change little with their minds fixed on simply doing enough to secure re - election in 2012.

Nobody wants radical change. You implicitly admit this by fobbing off SF policy and admitting you don't want them in government.

So I will vote for the party that is most active on the ground in my constituency.

Another stupid method of voting imho. They're parliamentarians who draft legislation and debate national issues. Fix yer pothole politicians are fine and dandy for your local county council, but that's not what a national parliament is.

I will cast a vote for the one Irish party commited to the cause of a 32 county Republic.

Who's that? FF? FG? Lab? Greens? PDs?

And I will vote for the one party that scares people into tuning in when they get votes.

I won't be voting for the one party that scares me when they get votes. Fear of political parties generally isn't a good thing.

Votáil Sinn Féin. There's no 'V' in the Irish language but, hey, it looks good and I don't really mind that they're absolutely fucking useless when it comes to policy. Geroff it.

LuckyLloyd

brianthebard wrote:

Weren't you being a bit unclear about your reasons for voting for SF earlier then? You claimed it was to see a shake up but perhaps its because you want a 32 county republic? Why didn't you just say that?

My initial post also stated my support for a 32 county Republic.

Ulster9

Ulster9 you're typical of Sinn Fein supporters that have graced this board in the past. When you get into a corner you retreat to the past and quote atrocities and deaths. Well as you like your stats heres a good one for you.

Did the IRA kill more Loyalist Paramilitaries than Republican ones?

I was merely responding to a poster who was stating blatant inaccuaracies.Go back and read the post.I m not in a corner if you think that.Its clear you dont know what you are talking about.I know many IRA actions were indefenceable but if people want to be selective about things that happened then i m entitled to make my arguements. When someone continues to bring up emotive subjects do i not have the right to bring a bit of balance to the debate?
I live a couple of mile from the border and have my reasons for feeling strongly about these issues.Trying to blame the IRA for all the troubles is ridiculous.All sides kept it going and this State included.

Villain

If FF really wanted a 32 county Ireland do you not think they might try and have a few candidates run up North, only the Greens and Sinn Fein seem to be really interested in what happens north of border

LuckyLloyd

Ibid wrote:

I've said it on this website several times before and I'll say it again: this is Sinn Féin's main method of debate. Not justification of their own actions, but frankly stupid comparisons to other problems with the world. "
My point? It does not matter how other people are voting. Justify your reasons on their own merit.

I concede that this is a solid point. It is much easier to see the problems than come up with solutions. However, I have not identified a comprehensive or coherant approach that I could identify with from any of the current parties (including Sinn Feinn).

Ibid wrote:

Then either run yourself or throw your backing to what you feel is the best horse. I'm not perfectly happy with an FG/Lab/Green coalition, I can see me rolling my eyes at a few future policy decisions, but I will still support them as I think they're the best viable option.

I don't think that particular combination will be particularly viable. And this is quite probably my problem - I don't see any tangible difference between FG / L / Green; FF / L; FF / PD; FG / L / PD. I think they all produce much of a muchness.

Ibid wrote:

This is not grounds for voting for a bunch of criminalistic political retards who base their policies on pure rhetoric. The laughable "Social Economy" being a case in point. Why not just call it a the "Big Happy Wealthy Society" policy?

You don't think Trevor Sargent is capable of being in government (with ~12 seats there isn't a hope in hell of him running one); nor do you think Caoimhín O'Crayon would be capable; but you're voting SF?

As I said, I don't consider that informed voting.

I strongly disagree with your association of the current Sinn Feinn with the word "criminalistic". But I am smart enough to know that people go either of two ways on that one so we'll probably be forced to agree to disagree.

lol - why not call it that indeed? It is nonesense. But at least you instantly realise what you dislike about it when you examine it. I think the airing of such crazy views is good as it re - affirms why a free - market economic model that gives full leighway to business is the best option.

As regards the competancy of any of them for leading roles in government - that is not an issue when I go to cast my vote. Sinn Feinn will not be getting in - so they are a safe protest vote.

Ibid wrote:

Nobody wants radical change. You implicitly admit this by fobbing off SF policy and admitting you don't want them in government.

There are different levels of radicalism. The type of stuff Sinn Feinn blabber on about would be tantamount to a regressive social revolution. The type of stuff I am talking about relates to aggressively following through on the idea of de - centralisation; bringing in painful restrictions and corrections to tackle the congestion problems in the economic centre of the country (the greater Dublin area) so as to ensure continued economic viabillity and efficiency while helping to maintain a decent quality of life for those who must commute; sitting down and taking a serious look at the property market and asking the question of where we are going with this and how it can be controlled; asking the tough questions of whether we can continue to attract foreign investment and the employment that provides in an ever more competative international econmy etc, etc...

Making changes in the above areas is more painful and inconvenient than it is radical. The current government have largely sidestepped such potential headches and put off sorting them out - despite the fact that the country has been in a rare good health where it could take painful short term disruption on the chin. I cannot perceive any coalition combination from the five mainstream parties really standing up and being counted when it comes to this stuff. So I don't see why I should vote for any of them.

Ibid wrote:

Another stupid method of voting imho. They're parliamentarians who draft legislation and debate national issues. Fix yer pothole politicians are fine and dandy for your local county council, but that's not what a national parliament is.

It is the only political positive I can identify at this time however.

Ibid wrote:

I won't be voting for the one party that scares me when they get votes. Fear of political parties generally isn't a good thing.

Votáil Sinn Féin. There's no 'V' in the Irish language but, hey, it looks good and I don't really mind that they're absolutely fucking useless when it comes to policy.

In the context of a deliberate protest vote - I would view it as quite a goood thing.

lol again on your last paragraph.


Thanks for your response though. You are obviously making some strong points. I think you underestimate my dissatisfaction with Irish politics however.

brianthebard

I'm not trying to catch you out at this stage, but if you really want to make a protest vote wouldn't a local independant who you feel is a capable representative for your area be the best choice? I appreciate what you are saying about a dissatisfaction with the major parties, but if you don't agree with almost all of the policies of your protest vote, will you really be happy if that person gets elected? Even on a local level having a good TD as opposed to someone who's just collecting a pay packet makes a huge difference for the area and its something I would urge you to consider.

LuckyLloyd

brianthebard wrote:

I'm not trying to catch you out at this stage, but if you really want to make a protest vote wouldn't a local independant who you feel is a capable representative for your area be the best choice? I appreciate what you are saying about a dissatisfaction with the major parties, but if you don't agree with almost all of the policies of your protest vote, will you really be happy if that person gets elected? Even on a local level having a good TD as opposed to someone who's just collecting a pay packet makes a huge difference for the area and its something I would urge you to consider.

I personally feel that Sean Crowe fits the bill on those particular points. He does a lot of decent work in the Tallaght area.

Ulster9

The topic of this thread puts Sinn Fein supporters on the defensive.I do not want to be involved in a "what a bout ya?" with posters.I find it completely fine to have a go regarding Sinn Fein and their policies but think that using the troubles to bash Sinn Fein is gonna generate heated and irrational debate.
I think people should reflect on the recent encouraging events in the North and hope they continue and when people attack Sinn Fein regarding their role in the Norths troubles they should ask themselves why it is that the majority of nationalists put their trust in Sinn Fein by voting for them?

I don't believe anything should be swept under the carpet though.
If people have views,let them express themselves within the charter of course.

I personally feel that Sean Crowe fits the bill on those particular points. He does a lot of decent work in the Tallaght area.

Thats as bad as voting for personalities though isn't it or voting for families where the Dad hands the seat over to the son etc and the voters buy that.
Me-I'll look at the policies.
Theres one particular politician local to me from one of the big parties that does a lot of good work locally BUT on principle I'd not vote for him as I disagree with a lot of his parties policies.