Sinn Féin-the southern elete and the biased media

GabharBrean

bmaxi wrote:

Really? Reading the stats of the Assembly elections in the North one thing that stood out was the almost complete absence of transfers between SF and the DUP. While Protestants were the founding fathers of Republicanism in Ireland and Protestants in the Republic tend to be less than enamoured with Unionism, I doubt if many would find common cause with the Provos.

Firstly, there are non-Catholics who straight vote for SF. Not suprising for one time supporters of the Vanguard to not vote for SF.

Secondly, I do not know what kind of demographic information is publicly available for the Monaghan/Cavan constituency. However, if you look at election returns for certain parishes/townships that have a heavy non-Catholic demographic during the last council elections, you'll find a significant rise in SF support.

I suppose within any given demogrphic there will be a diversity of opinion. Have non-Protestants in Antrim voted for Paisley in the past? Probably. He has a reputation of taking care of his constituents no matter their demographic. A vote is a vote. Politics makes strange bed fellows, and in a vibrant democracy alot of bed hopping will go on.

El Stuntman

Ulster9 wrote:

And what evidence to you have to prove that this is the majority view down south.Its just your opinion but i would suggest you are wrong.

here's your evidence: just watch all of the election debate that takes place in the national media over the next while

then work out how important the reunification of Ireland is to your average voter down here when you see how far down the list of issues Northern Ireland is (hint: very far down)

we're more interested in the price of houses, the state of the roads, hospital waiting lists, jobs, incinerators, creches (i.e. normal self-interest type issues). Nobody really gives a stuff about Northern Ireland unless they've had a few drinks and are singing rebel ballads. It's a non issue for your average voter....

unpalatable; yes. undeniable too.

GabharBrean

El Stuntman wrote:

I like your optimism

but you need to face facts - the raison d-etre of SF is of no interest to most people down South (as most of us would prefer if Northern Ireland remained a British problem rather than an Irish one. I'm not saying this is right but it's definitely a majority view, albeit unspoken) and they have no other attractive reason to vote for them

I've never been called optomistic before. Thanks. Born pessimitist - hoping to be surprised.

However, call them facts, un-proper thinking, not being logical, going against the grain, whatever - it remains that Republicans are always told that something is unachievable. Can't have one man one vote. Can't organise politically. Can't get reps elected to Dail. Can't negotiate a peace deal. Can't become the largest nationalist party. Everyday and in every way, we are told we can't. Maybe you are right. I'll just keep on hoping.

brianthebard

Its not that hard to become the largest nationalist party given the amount of competition.

bmaxi

GabharBrean wrote:

Firstly, there are non-Catholics who straight vote for SF. Not suprising for one time supporters of the Vanguard to not vote for SF.]

Don't understand what you are saying here

[Secondly, I do not know what kind of demographic information is publicly available for the Monaghan/Cavan constituency. However, if you look at election returns for certain parishes/townships that have a heavy non-Catholic demographic during the last council elections, you'll find a significant rise in SF support.]

Given that the IRA waged a vicious campaign in the 1970's aimed at purging the border areas of Protestants, who in all likelihood were related to those living in Cavan/Monaghan, it beggars belief that SF would be getting support from Protestants in that area.

[I suppose within any given demogrphic there will be a diversity of opinion. Have non-Protestants in Antrim voted for Paisley in the past? Probably. He has a reputation of taking care of his constituents no matter their demographic. A vote is a vote. Politics makes strange bed fellows, and in a vibrant democracy alot of bed hopping will go on.]

I'm not au fait with the political preferences of the people of Antrim. Are you saying that Catholics there would vote for Revd. Ian in preference to their local SF candidate. Speaks volumes that.
Incidentally those Protestants with whom I grew up objected to being described as "non-Catholics". Always intrigued me.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Haven't read the whole thread so this may well have been covered. To the OP: A lot of people don't vote for them because their members are ex-terrorists. Martin McGuinness in particular puts a lot of people off.

I don't vote for them because I think they'd spend some of their time on working toward a united Ireland. Personally I believe life's too short for this sort of thing. That said Mary-Lou MacDonald was making a lot of sense here

GabharBrean

Don't understand what you are saying here

Prev. poster was talking about transfers. This refers to people whose first preference is SF.

Given that the IRA waged a vicious campaign in the 1970's aimed at purging the border areas of Protestants, who in all likelihood were related to those living in Cavan/Monaghan, it beggars belief that SF would be getting support from Protestants in that area.

The election numbers are available to the public. The research is there to be done. We can all go through life citing "our side of the story". Alot of people have moved away from polemic. Voting patterns often reflect "real politic", i.e. delivery of services.

I'm not au fait with the political preferences of the people of Antrim. Are you saying that Catholics there would vote for Revd. Ian in preference to their local SF candidate. Speaks volumes that.
Incidentally those Protestants with whom I grew up objected to being described as "non-Catholics". Always intrigued me.[/QUOTE]

For decades SF had no reps in Antrim (outside Belfast). Only in the last decade or so has SF made in roads-into Antrim county. Again the numbers are available to the public.

Non-Catholics = Protestants, Muslims, etc. and the second largest and growing group the non-religious affiliated. Use reverse when Non-Protestant was used.

Guys will you please LEARN to use the quote the post feature so we can easily see who you are replying to.

GabharBrean

brianthebard wrote:

Its not that hard to become the largest nationalist party given the amount of competition.

?

jahalpin

Did anyone read the coverage of the Martin Ferris' arrest in Kerry? I read about it in the Indo today (somebody forgot to get the Mail this morning!!). I found the coverage to be very unbiased and an honest report of the facts ie he was over the limit as by his own admission, he had 2 pints and a glass of wine. He also said that he purposely drove towards the police checkpoint!!

I suppose the Sinn Fein supporters are going to say that the papers are being biased against them by reporting items like this even though every other celebrity that is arrested for drunk driving ends up on the frontpage.

brianthebard

It was dealt with on the six one the other day, was also very professional. I was expecting a bit of a media backlash but as far as I'm aware this hasn't happened. All in all he seems to have been treated fairly well by the media imo.

knipex

The day Sinn Fein get into power either on their own or as part of a coalition is the day I sell my house, pack up my wife and children, close my business and leave this country.

Grudaire

knipex wrote:

The day Sinn Fein get into power either on their own or as part of a coalition is the day I sell my house, pack up my wife and children, close my business and leave this country.

A bit extreme no?!

I feel evidence is showing that the PIRA (only) is taking a peacefull path, so really I can trust them in government without stealing more then any other politition does....

However I want to know why Sinn Féin are pushing for the release of McCabes killers....?

daveirl

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GabharBrean

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Many many people have huge daily problems with FF/PD's economic policy, etc. Not just with their criminality, immorality and general erosion of democratic institutions.

Villain

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

What criminality is that?

jahalpin

GabharBrean wrote:

Many many people have huge daily problems with FF/PD's economic policy, etc. Not just with their criminality, immorality and general erosion of democratic institutions.

Under the under goverrnment the Republic is stronger and more successful than it has been since the foundation of the state. The country is so successful at the moment that we will have paid back the whole of the national debt within a few years, one of the few countries in the world to have done so. Under Sinn Fein the country would fall back into the depths of economic despair last seen in the eighties, there would be huge unemployment and general social dispair.

Sinn Fein have no experience of government, apart from their time on the NI assembly before it was disolved last time due to it's inability to govern!! They only have a handful of TD's and their MP's won't even take their seats in Westminister, as they will not take an oath to the head of state as all members of parliament in democracies are required to do.

As for the criminality, I think you should look at Sinn Feins record beofre you even dare to look at another party. Let's not forget that Sinn Fein is the political wing of the I.R.A., some of the worst criminals in the developed world. Their members are guility of crimes such as murder, terrorism, extortion,serious tax evasion and treason. While the worst "crime" FF members are guilty of would be some minor corruption, which probably helped the economic stability of this country, which doesn't excuse it but this isn't exactly in the same league as the criminality of members of Sinn Fein. At least FF members found guilty of crimes have the decency not to ask for special treatment in prison, let's face it people found guilty of bribery etc aren't exactly the same treat to the security of the state as convicted murderers.

As for Bertie allegedly taking a loan from his friends, anyone in his position would have been forced to do the same, ie. kicked out of his own home and most of his money taken by his wife, it is unlikely that any of the lenders benefited financially from the transaction, apart maybe from a little interest paid by Bertie himself out of his own money.

What erosion of democratic institutions are you referring to?

daveirl

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Raskolnikov

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Martin McGuinness wrote:

Whoever carried out this attack I absolutely and unequivocally condemn it. Such attacks have no place in our society. Those responsible must be made accountable through the courts.

Sinn Féin have endorsed the PSNI and McGuinness has stated in the very article that you linked to; that the whoever commited that crime will be held to account by the PSNI.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

GabharBrean

jahalpin wrote:

Under the under goverrnment the Republic is stronger and more successful than it has been since the foundation of the state. The country is so successful at the moment that we will have paid back the whole of the national debt within a few years, one of the few countries in the world to have done so. Under Sinn Fein the country would fall back into the depths of economic despair last seen in the eighties, there would be huge unemployment and general social dispair.

Sinn Fein have no experience of government, apart from their time on the NI assembly before it was disolved last time due to it's inability to govern!! They only have a handful of TD's and their MP's won't even take their seats in Westminister, as they will not take an oath to the head of state as all members of parliament in democracies are required to do.

As for the criminality, I think you should look at Sinn Feins record beofre you even dare to look at another party. Let's not forget that Sinn Fein is the political wing of the I.R.A., some of the worst criminals in the developed world. Their members are guility of crimes such as murder, terrorism, extortion,serious tax evasion and treason. While the worst "crime" FF members are guilty of would be some minor corruption, which probably helped the economic stability of this country, which doesn't excuse it but this isn't exactly in the same league as the criminality of members of Sinn Fein. At least FF members found guilty of crimes have the decency not to ask for special treatment in prison, let's face it people found guilty of bribery etc aren't exactly the same treat to the security of the state as convicted murderers.

As for Bertie allegedly taking a loan from his friends, anyone in his position would have been forced to do the same, ie. kicked out of his own home and most of his money taken by his wife, it is unlikely that any of the lenders benefited financially from the transaction, apart maybe from a little interest paid by Bertie himself out of his own money.

What erosion of democratic institutions are you referring to?

Thank you for this unbiased and highly factually acurate portrayal of recent history. I have seen the light. I'll be applying to RTE for a job since I now know the truth. In my spare time I'll learn to sing the British national anthem and lobby all politicians to make an oath to the queen. Hell, if I get in the right circles, I may even get no limit interest free loans; be able vent my prejudices; and do a spot of historical revisionism. What! Tally ho!

johnnyskeleton

GabharBrean wrote:

Thank you for this unbiased and highly factually acurate portrayal of recent history. I have seen the light. I'll be applying to RTE for a job since I now know the truth. In my spare time I'll learn to sing the British national anthem and lobby all politicians to make an oath to the queen. Hell, if I get in the right circles, I may even get no limit interest free loans; be able vent my prejudices; and do a spot of historical revisionism. What! Tally ho!

It is not, as per your original post, the Irish media who dampen people's opinion of SF, it is comments like this one.

Raskolnikov

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party was once a militant-Anarcho-Trotskite-Marxist-Leninist-Communist member of Militant who espoused violence to overthrow the state.

Hardline Fianna Fáilers like Charlie Haughey and the Blaneys ran guns for the IRA. It was a time when the monicker "The Republican Party" actually applied to Fianna Fáil.

Half the Labour party membership is ex-Sinn Féin/Sinn Féin The Workers Party/The Workers Party/Democratic Left/insert irate republican group here.

Accepting the political legitimacy of Sinn Féin is a small price to pay to end violence and criminality.

DublinWriter

GabharBrean wrote:

Why? What are they afraid of?

SF getting in and implementing their stated economic policy of increasing corporation tax.

Considering 3 American companies here constitute about 24% of our total national GDP, I wouldn't just be afraid of SF getting in, I'd be cakking myself.

SF and SF'ers have been relying on the tried and trusted formula of Brit-bashing so long that they really took their eye off the ball in terms of what's really happening socio-economically in the last 15 years.

Their economic policy is straight out of early 1970's student bedsit-land. It's so amateur is might as well have been drafted in blue crayon.

brianthebard

Raskolnikov wrote:

Accepting the political legitimacy of Sinn Féin is a small price to pay to end violence and criminality.

Is it possible for SF supporters to accept that not everyone will accept SF, no matter how far they step away from criminality??? I for one have no interest in voting for the party no matter how they present themselves. I politely suggest to all SF supporters (on this thread especially) that you just accept this fact.

Time Magazine

DublinWriter wrote:

Considering 3 American companies here constitute about 24% of our total national GDP

That simply cannot true. What are you mixing it up with?.

DublinWriter

Ibid wrote:

That simply cannot true. What are you mixing it up with?.

OK, so I heard it on the Joe Duffy show last week, it must be true!

But it's backed up by the following link to a Word document published by the US Commercial Service, which states that exports from Ireland by U.S. subsidiaries (at $37 billion in 2003) account for more than 30% of all Irish exports:

http://commercecan.ic.gc.ca/scdt/bizmap/interface2.nsf/vDownload/CCG_1510/$file/X_164532.DOC

Villain

jahalpin wrote:

As for the criminality, I think you should look at Sinn Feins record beofre you even dare to look at another party. Let's not forget that Sinn Fein is the political wing of the I.R.A., some of the worst criminals in the developed world. Their members are guility of crimes such as murder, terrorism, extortion,serious tax evasion and treason. While the worst "crime" FF members are guilty of would be some minor corruption, which probably helped the economic stability of this country, which doesn't excuse it but this isn't exactly in the same league as the criminality of members of Sinn Fein. At least FF members found guilty of crimes have the decency not to ask for special treatment in prison, let's face it people found guilty of bribery etc aren't exactly the same treat to the security of the state as convicted murderers.

As for Bertie allegedly taking a loan from his friends, anyone in his position would have been forced to do the same, ie. kicked out of his own home and most of his money taken by his wife, it is unlikely that any of the lenders benefited financially from the transaction, apart maybe from a little interest paid by Bertie himself out of his own money.

Oh Right so the corruption that FF and FG have been involved has helped the economic stability of this state? What exactly are you basing that on? I doubt many if any of Charlie Haugheys corruption helped our state in any way, he may helped the yacht makers or those taliors that made his expensive shirts but I don't know how his corruption or any corruption has helped this state in any way, if you have proof to show otherwise please do post it.

As for Sinn Fein's past nobody denies that they were connected to the IRA or that certain members have very bad past's but if Sinn Fein weren't connected to the IRA do you believe that the IRA would have decommisioned all its weapons and ceased all illegal activity as stated by independent inspectors, do you think without that link we would now have power sharing and support by the nationalist community for the Police service?

I don't think FF, FG, Labour or the PD's could have delivered that, you could talk about the past of the Sinn Fein or you can talk about the present and how they have helped bring peace to this Island, or you can go back even further to the days of Michael Collins and all the murders that he was involved in, I personally am more interested in what is happening currently and how Ian Paisley has finally said yes and we have power sharing, I was working in Belfast for most of last week and its a very different place now than what it was 10 years ago.

Sinn Fein don't have the best economic policies and certainly don't have the experience to govern this state however they do know what local politics is about and they do work hard for people that elect them. I'm not saying SF are the best party to vote for but if you are going to talk about them you have to look at the present and not just the past. SF are the largest nationalist party in Northern Ireland they are representing the Irish Citizens that live in Northern Ireland I don't see FF or FG doing that or even trying to do that.

E92

DublinWriter wrote:

SF and SF'ers have been relying on the tried and trusted formula of Brit-bashing so long that they really took their eye off the ball in terms of what's really happening socio-economically in the last 15 years.

Yes and this is coming from a party that believes in ''equality''.It seems their idea of ''Equality'' has a number of T&Cs attached to it. Such as Brit bashing which is so out of date, it may not have occured to Sinn Fein yet but it is actually 85 years since Ireland became a free state and 58 years since Ireland got its independance, both of which were done by Fine Gael(or Cumann na nGaedhal as they were called in Michaels Collins's time, well I know CnaG actually wasnt formed till 1932). They(Sinn Fein) are such a right wing party on certain issues like that, yet they 'believe' in equality, apparantly. This sort of selective equality, combined with their past and economic policies are the reasons why I dislike them so much,and by the way a lot of SF candidates ran election manifestos in the North, wanting to re-ban abortion, something that is very right wing(I think its more Brit bashing but in a different disgiuse, thats also my opinion on their desire to scrap the 11-plus in NI,nothing to do with education in my view), and this the party that brands the rest of the parties in this country as 'conservative'(even though most parties Fine Gael included are Centrist or slightly right of Centre, which Fine Gael are).

Raskolnikov

Raskolnikov wrote:

Joe Higgins of the Socialist Party was once a militant-Anarcho-Trotskite-Marxist-Leninist-Communist member of Militant who espoused violence to overthrow the state.

I once believed in Santa.
What is his position on the now finished IRA campaign?Did he ever think it was wrong? Does he think it was wrong? We know what FF and FG's position on it is.
You go to any moderate sinn Féin voter and I'd be surprised if their majority position wasn't in defence of the decision makers responsible for the killing of Garda McCabe or warrington or Enniskillen.
If you mention it at all,they'll quickly go on about the wrongs of both sides etc but starkly ignore that they had no permission to use the name of the Irish people for their deeds.

Hardline Fianna Fáilers like Charlie Haughey and the Blaneys ran guns for the IRA. It was a time when the monicker "The Republican Party" actually applied to Fianna Fáil.

Hello...
Charlie Haughey bullied and cajoled his way to the top of that party after the fact that he was acquitted of those gun running charges and irrespective of whether he was involved or not.That was also at a time when such bullying and cajoling and the corruption value of high office was suffecient to almost guarantee quiet on that front.
It was also at a time when civil war politics was alive and well in the 26 counties-a time when the Dev's would always vote Dev and the blue shirts always voted blue shirt and there was little talk of policies unless it involved abolishing rates...
I'd challenge you to actually find any support Haughey had for the IRA once they started bombing and shooting up there ad lib.

Half the Labour party membership is ex-Sinn Féin/Sinn Féin The Workers Party/The Workers Party/Democratic Left/insert irate republican group here.

Lol -now thats an exaggeration.

Accepting the political legitimacy of Sinn Féin is a small price to pay to end violence and criminality.

No body is saying they aren't entitled to stand,it's just a lot of people have a distaste still for their slowness in accepting that the IRA did absolutely not have the people of Irelands permission to bomb and shoot in their name.
Thats one thing.
The other thing is the funny economic policies.

irish1 wrote:

As for Sinn Fein's past nobody denies that they were connected to the IRA or that certain members have very bad past's but if Sinn Fein weren't connected to the IRA do you believe that the IRA would have decommisioned all its weapons and ceased all illegal activity as stated by independent inspectors, do you think without that link we would now have power sharing and support by the nationalist community for the Police service?

Most people I reckon have the cop on to see the IRA and Sinn Féin as always being and always have been one and the same regardless of their insistance otherwise which makes that question a non sequitor.