For those who don't believe?

Son Goku

BrianCalgary wrote:

Some of God's actions in the OT, I plan on asking God about, yet I trust in His wisdom and sovereignty. With regard to the Greek gods, they just seem like a selfcentred bunch that use humans for their own means. They also don't seem to have much to offer.

YHWH on the other hand has far more than He needs and desires to share it with us.

What do you think the Greek Gods were then? Were they Gods below YHWH?
Did YHWH make them? This is actually interesting.

BrianCalgary

Son Goku wrote:

What do you think the Greek Gods were then? Were they Gods below YHWH?
Did YHWH make them? This is actually interesting.

My guess is that they are fallen angels posing as gods to take people away from God.

God created all the Angels, Satan or Lucifer as being the greatest. Satan rebelled against God and took his followers with him, after their banishment from Heaven.

The fallen angels or demons act as gods.

Glad you're finding it interesting.:)

Son Goku

BrianCalgary wrote:

My guess is that they are fallen angels posing as gods to take people away from God.

I thought so, I know in the pseudepigraphical Testament of Solomon some demon called "Asmodai" or something similar claims that eventually he and his kind will go out and pretend to be gods.
Anyway, thanks for answering.

Zillah

I've always wondered.

Was the Arch Angel Lucifer portrayed as completely insane? I just wonder, because at what point did he think it was a good idea to rebel against the all powerful creator and ruler of the universe.

Now, I casually defy Yaweh because the notion of his existence is comically unlikely to me, but I somehow doubt that Lucifer could have shared that position.

On that topic, where exactly are details of the fall of Satan? Because I'm fairly sure its not biblical. It mostly seems like it was made up in the Middle Ages.

Son Goku

Zillah wrote:

I've always wondered.

Was the Arch Angel Lucifer portrayed as completely insane? I just wonder, because at what point did he think it was a good idea to rebel against the all powerful creator and ruler of the universe.

The usual answer is basically an attempt at emphasizing how evil and proud Satan was. i.e., "Yeah, he's so proud and evil that he'd even fight against an omnipotent entity".
Personally, getting into a fight with an opponent who can change reality or turn you into Woody Allen with a wink, is a bit stupid, but that's just how gosh darned evil Satan is.

Zillah wrote:

Now, I casually defy Yaweh because the notion of his existence is comically unlikely to me, but I somehow doubt that Lucifer could have shared that position.

On that topic, where exactly are details of the fall of Satan? Because I'm fairly sure its not biblical. It mostly seems like it was made up in the Middle Ages.

Parts of it are tied up with Sumerian and Babylonian myths, but it is more to do with Judaic demonology and some Zoroastrian cosmological ideas. It's also interesting in that it links into the decline of the Judaic idea of Sheol, the original indiscriminate afterlife.(Bear in mind the wikipedia article isn't one of the best)

EDIT:Any stuff about Sheol itself is worth a read, it seems that man went through a period when the afterlife was either some shadowy non-existence(hades, sheol) or simply another mortal existence (the Celtic "otherworld")

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

no, not really, he has no power over my life.

Why? Because you don't believe in him?

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

They also don't seem to have much to offer.

Actually they offered far more than your god does. Your god is very "hands off", everything is focused on the after life. If you have a miserable suffering life your god will pretty much leave you alone to get on with dying. The Greek gods on the other hand were much more hands on, and protected and helped humans who were suffering or in need of help.

robindch

"Hands on" in a physical sense too. The Greek gods were as interested in sex as the christian god is, but the Greek ones actually enjoyed it. And more than a few heroes (Hercules/Herakles for example) resulted from the holy union of a male god and a mortal woman.

Any similarity between Greek and christian religious mythologies is (presumably) unintentional.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Why? Because you don't believe in him?

No, I didn't say I don't believe in him, I would say he actaully exists.

He has no power over my life because my life is in the hands of God.

BrianCalgary

Zillah wrote:

On that topic, where exactly are details of the fall of Satan? Because I'm fairly sure its not biblical. It mostly seems like it was made up in the Middle Ages.

Revelation 12:7 to 13:1
7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short."

13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 13
1And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

No, I didn't say I don't believe in him, I would say he actaully exists.

He has no power over my life because my life is in the hands of God.

Zeus is the king of all other gods, including yours, he has power over all other gods ... so I think you are screwed if he does exist

hairyheretic

Wicknight wrote:

Zeus is the king of all other gods, including yours, he has power over all other gods

I think Odin might dispute that somewhat

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Zeus is the king of all other gods, including yours, he has power over all other gods ... so I think you are screwed if he does exist

If he does exist he certainly hasn't shown that he gives a rats behind about me or anyone else for that matter.

YHWH has shown His compassion.

hairyheretic

BrianCalgary wrote:

If he does exist he certainly hasn't shown that he gives a rats behind about me or anyone else for that matter.

Unless you are a follower of his, why would he?

BrianCalgary wrote:

YHWH has shown His compassion.

To play devils advocate for a moment, if you'll pardon the pun, worship me or suffer eternal torment? I don't think everyone is going to see that as compassion.

BrianCalgary

hairyheretic wrote:

Unless you are a follower of his, why would he?.

Because if he wanted followers he would have to show some reason to follow him. God came to Earth, took on the nature of man, suffered and died, for us.

hairyheretic wrote:

To play devils advocate for a moment, if you'll pardon the pun, worship me or suffer eternal torment? I don't think everyone is going to see that as compassion.

Devils advocate is OK. I do it quite a bit myself in Sunday School even.

No not everyone sees it that way. This is an expression of consequence for actions. if I tell my son: don't ride your bike off that cliff or else this will happen, he kicks and screams and insists it's ok and does it, he has made that choice and suffered the consequences of his action.

As it is with God, He tells us the consequence of our action, we choose to ignore it, then blame Him for being shy on compassion?

1 John 4:10-12
10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.

hairyheretic

BrianCalgary wrote:

Because if he wanted followers he would have to show some reason to follow him.

Isn't the reason that anyone follows a belief because they feel it is right? They may interpret specific events as random chance, or divine intervention, since personal experience seems to be the only place for divine manifestations these days (or occasionally inside fruit or on other inanimate objects, to judge by the stories that occasionally do the rounds in newspapers )

BrianCalgary wrote:

Devils advocate is OK. I do it quite a bit myself in Sunday School even.

No not everyone sees it that way. This is an expression of consequence for actions. if I tell my son: don't ride your bike off that cliff or else this will happen, he kicks and screams and insists it's ok and does it, he has made that choice and suffered the consequences of his action.

At the same time, its not like you have a whole lot of choice, is it? If I tell you "Do this and I'll reward you. Don't do it and I'll kill you." you wouldn't think that was a very fair choice, would you?

Zillah

BrianCalgary wrote:

No not everyone sees it that way. This is an expression of consequence for actions. if I tell my son: don't ride your bike off that cliff or else this will happen, he kicks and screams and insists it's ok and does it, he has made that choice and suffered the consequences of his action.

As it is with God, He tells us the consequence of our action, we choose to ignore it, then blame Him for being shy on compassion?

Ah, but you see, the main problem for rational people like us is that GOD didn't tell us these things, a jew who died hundreds of years ago did, and it seems to be quite irrational to assume he was inspired by God just because he claims so.

If someone came up to you on the street and claimed to speak for God, you'd doubt them surely? What would be required for you to take them seriously? If he claimed he could perform miracles, I assume you'd want to see them, or evidence for them first? Because any prophecy or Godly works in the bible were just written...someone claiming something is not evidence for it.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

No not everyone sees it that way. This is an expression of consequence for actions. if I tell my son: don't ride your bike off that cliff or else this will happen, he kicks and screams and insists it's ok and does it, he has made that choice and suffered the consequences of his action.

As you can see, there are a number of objections to this claim. Let me add mine - the analogy doen't hold...

First, you don't allow your son to ride his bike off a cliff, because you love him.

Second, you do not make him fall to his death if he does. God deems what is to happen - no "force of moral gravity" constrains Him to send people to Hell.

A better analogy, I'm afraid, is you telling your son that if he does not give you a Father's Day card, you will lock him in the cellar without food.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Schuhart

Scofflaw wrote:

A better analogy, I'm afraid, is you telling your son that if he does not give you a Father's Day card, you will lock him in the cellar without food.

That's what's wrong with the children these days. Too many designer clothes and not enough nights spent fearful and hungry in a dark confined space.

Oops, sorry, I thought this was the parenting forum.

Asiaprod

Schuhart wrote:

That's what's wrong with the children these days. Too many designer clothes and not enough nights spent fearful and hungry in a dark confined space.

Oops, sorry, I thought this was the parenting forum.

Away hungry for the night to the dark confined space with you:D, though the Parenting Forum bit was good*.

*Take a Kit-Kat with you, its Golden Week over here, 7 days no work.

Asiaprod

Asiaprod wrote:

its Golden Week over here, 7 days no work.

Whaa?
Man I'd love one o those, got an exam in 2 hours...

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

Whaa?
Man I'd love one o those, got an exam in 2 hours...

Best of luck with it:)

BrianCalgary

Scofflaw wrote:

As you can see, there are a number of objections to this claim. Let me add mine - the analogy doen't hold...

First, you don't allow your son to ride his bike off a cliff, because you love him.

Second, you do not make him fall to his death if he does. God deems what is to happen - no "force of moral gravity" constrains Him to send people to Hell.

A better analogy, I'm afraid, is you telling your son that if he does not give you a Father's Day card, you will lock him in the cellar without food.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Actually scofflaw it does hold. My son is 14 and aware of th einherent dangers of dirt trail biking. Last night my wife and i were at a bible study and we got a phone call. My wife and my son didn't get home until 1:30am, after xrays and blood tests.

it is because I love him that I give him that freedom. At some point he has to be released to live his own life.

God has released us to live our own lives and He has explained to us thedangers of certain lifestyles.

We then choose.

BrianCalgary

hairyheretic wrote:

Isn't the reason that anyone follows a belief because they feel it is right? They may interpret specific events as random chance, or divine intervention, since personal experience seems to be the only place for divine manifestations these days (or occasionally inside fruit or on other inanimate objects, to judge by the stories that occasionally do the rounds in newspapers )?

Yes, but is it right? That is the eternal question isn't it?

hairyheretic wrote:

At the same time, its not like you have a whole lot of choice, is it? If I tell you "Do this and I'll reward you. Don't do it and I'll kill you." you wouldn't think that was a very fair choice, would you?

Of course you have a choice, what is the benefit and what is the consequence.

An eternity in Heaven learning, getting to know people, playing football on the best pitch ever, skiing on nice long steep groomed runs, the best food; or eternal torment?

The choice is yours.

BrianCalgary

Zillah wrote:

Ah, but you see, the main problem for rational people like us.

Are you then saying that Christians aren't rational?

Zillah wrote:

is that GOD didn't tell us these things, a jew who died hundreds of years ago did, and it seems to be quite irrational to assume he was inspired by God just because he claims so. .

Jesus claimed to be God. He backed it up with things like healing lepers, making blind see, rising from teh dead, raising others from the dead.

Zillah wrote:

If someone came up to you on the street and claimed to speak for God, you'd doubt them surely? What would be required for you to take them seriously? If he claimed he could perform miracles, I assume you'd want to see them, or evidence for them first? Because any prophecy or Godly works in the bible were just written...someone claiming something is not evidence for it.

Of course I would, I would test what they had to say against scripture. If it was consistent with scripture I would probably accept that they are speaking from God.

Sangre

BrianCalgary wrote:

Are you then saying that Christians aren't rational?.

About their belief? Yes.

BrianCalgary wrote:

esus claimed to be God. He backed it up with things like healing lepers, making blind see, rising from teh dead, raising others from the dead..

Funny how he decided to do this in a gullible age of mutiple Gods and a lack of any empirical scientific testing to verify these miracles.

Dades

Sangre wrote:

About their belief? Yes.

This line of debate is not helpful IMO.

Sangre

He asked an honest question and I gave him my honest answer. If you can't call something irrational or illogical then debates on science and religion aren't going to amount to much.

Tim Robbins

Sangre wrote:

He asked an honest question and I gave him my honest answer. If you can't call something irrational or illogical then debates on science and religion aren't going to amount to much.

Don't call it pathetic whatever you do!

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

Actually scofflaw it does hold. My son is 14 and aware of th einherent dangers of dirt trail biking. Last night my wife and i were at a bible study and we got a phone call. My wife and my son didn't get home until 1:30am, after xrays and blood tests.

it is because I love him that I give him that freedom. At some point he has to be released to live his own life.

God has released us to live our own lives and He has explained to us thedangers of certain lifestyles.

We then choose.

You have allowed those freedoms to your son because you feel that he is old enough to act responsibly. However:

1. your judgement of his wisdom (so as to exercise due care and attention) is made in comparison to your own, so that you judge him wise enough by your own standards - whereas in comparison to god we are, and remain, infinitely unwise. And the stakes are very high - eternity is a very long time indeed.

2. if your son fell off the cliff 99% of the time he went mountain biking, would you honestly let him do so? That's the kind of stats we're looking at, at least, for getting into heaven.

3. It's still not you injuring him when he does fall off. It is God dooming people to Hell. Like it or not, that's the way of it - we don't damn ourselves unless he decides we have - he made Hell, he chooses who goes into it.

Your analogy is at fault, because there are two separate actors - you, and gravity. God is both the parent, and the gravity - the person who warns, and the person who harms. You are only the former.

cordially,
Scofflaw