Shower types

Lex Luthor

my sis has a shower that is fed from her hot & cold water supply and has a pump but is now on the way out.

She's not too gone on it the fact she needs to have a tank fullk of hot water every time she needs a shower, unlike mine which is fed directly from the mains and heats instantaneously.

Can you get a shower that she can just supply from her cold water gravity fed supply and heat & pump it at the same time? She would then just close off the hot water supply to the shower.

Are these what Power Showers are?

Ronan H

From what you say in your post you are looking for
1. hot water in your shower that wont run out, as in when the tank is empty
2. very powerful supply of water, as in from a pump

Generally, you an have either 1 or 2 quite easily, but to get them together is a different matter altogether. To have 1 on its own you get an electric shower, for 2 you get a pump installed, but thats not what you are looking for...

I have been wondering about this for ages and as far as i am aware currently in order to have the constant hot water (without an electric shower) you would need to change your heating system. At work we have a heating system whereby there is constantly hot water as needed in taps, shower etc... because there is a combi heating system of some sort installed. With a system like this you have the water supply is from the mains but its heated along the way so it never runs out. Therefore you can just install a pump on the shower part and hey presto, constant hot water and loadsa power. The glory of this is that there is no hot water tank and the hot water is only heated as desired, so when you turn on the tap or the shower for hot water its only then its heated instead of heating it with your gas boiler or immersion and storing it in a tank. Therefore no waste of electricity heating loads of water in a tank and possibly having it cool down before you use it.

Such a system sounds great to me, but it seems to be hard to come by here in Ireland unless someone knows any different. I believe this sort of system is very popular in the UK. I have found only a small bit of information about this on Irish websites but i dont think they are the types of combi boiler that im talking about.

I have always thought it would be possible to use an electric shower to get the constant hot water and then install a pump on the line between the shower and the shower head to get the power, but apparently thats not possible, i think, but again someone might know better, im no plumber!

I hope thats helpful...

BTW i think a power shower is another word for an electric shower. When i had my pumped shower installed last year the guy was referring to the electric shower as a power shower. Doesnt make sense to me though because the power is generally not good unless the water is freezing...

Pump Head

Avns1s

Lex Luthor wrote:

my sis has a shower that is fed from her hot & cold water supply and has a pump but is now on the way out.

She's not too gone on it the fact she needs to have a tank fullk of hot water every time she needs a shower, unlike mine which is fed directly from the mains and heats instantaneously.

Can you get a shower that she can just supply from her cold water gravity fed supply and heat & pump it at the same time? She would then just close off the hot water supply to the shower.

Are these what Power Showers are?

Try using a Triton T90si. From your description, it seems exactly what you're looking for. This is a pumped electric shower which works off the gravity feed from your tank. It could work fine from the existing cold supply you have there, but the manufacturers recommend that it has its own independent cold supply direct from the header tank. It wouldn't be too difficult for the plumber to deal with this when putting it in anyway.

Hardest job might be getting the mains electric supply to it depending on your set up.

Hope this helps.

Stoner

Lex,

I assume that you do not have a water tank to feed this shower and that she wants to run it off "mains" water.

If so the Triton T80 is a good shower (or whatever the T80 xxxxx is at the moment) These are pumped and will run of mains water. They are not as good as the mira ot triton showers that work from a tank, but they are better then the electric showers that have no pump.

eoghan.geraghty

Sound like you need either a Triton T90si or a Mira Elite i think?
I'm more familiar with the Triton but both are excellent products.
If you insulate your cold water tank properly it will allow your shower to run more efficiently and also pump the water better at your desired temp.

Ronan H

Guys with these Triton etc... showers you are recommending are they as powerful as a shower fed by a hot water tank that have a pump on them?

Triton Head

eoghan.geraghty

Head wrote:

Guys with these Triton etc... showers you are recommending are they as powerful as a shower fed by a hot water tank that have a pump on them?

Triton Head

No, i think the pump you are talking about is a monsoon, thomas stanley or aqua-lita unit. These are more powerful than the triton or mira units.
However this is a trade off for the convenience and economy of only having to heat the water you need.
I installed 3 Triton T90si's in a gym last year, all still pumping and heating well, in a location getting heavy use.

Ronan H

Hmmm yeah its a bugger of a trade off alright, as i said above we had a Monsoon pump installed in our ensuite and its mad powerful which is great but it mills through a tank of water in no time, so now half the time i find myself using the electric shower in the main bathroom coz i can just chill and enjoy the hot water, albeit not as powerful...

Thats why i was very interested in the combi system mentioned above where its heated on demand and comes from the mains... That would be an ideal situation...

Combi Head

Mellor

Stoner wrote:

I assume that you do not have a water tank to feed this shower and that she wants to run it off "mains" water.

Lex Luther wrote:

Can you get a shower that she can just supply from her cold water gravity fed supply and heat & pump it at the same time?

He said that isn't what he wants,
Triton have a shower that would suit your needs

Lex Luthor

Avns1s wrote:

Try using a Triton T90si. From your description, it seems exactly what you're looking for. This is a pumped electric shower which works off the gravity feed from your tank. It could work fine from the existing cold supply you have there, but the manufacturers recommend that it has its own independent cold supply direct from the header tank. It wouldn't be too difficult for the plumber to deal with this when putting it in anyway.

Hardest job might be getting the mains electric supply to it depending on your set up.

Hope this helps.

the current shower already has mains to it...it would be just replacing the existing unit

when you say the unit should have its own cold supply direct from the header tank, would this not be the case already? Where would the current cold water supply be coming from?

antoinolachtnai

The cold supply might also be going to taps or the toilet as well as the shower. The feed should go directly to the shower and nowhere else. It shouldn't have too many right-angles in it either.

You can usually check this by taking a short visit to the attic.

If the current unit she has on the wall is just a pump unit, the mains wire may not be thick enough to safely drive the Triton T90si (or Mira or whatever you use). Then again, it may be. Remember that the shower draws around 10Kw, which is 40 amps.

Be sure to get someone who knows what they are doing to install the electic shower.

The combi system ... there is a limit to how much hot water these will throw out. I'd be surprised if they would be able to keep up with a big pump. I would think the solution here is really a bigger water tank, though I could be wrong. Also, I think a combi boiler is going to wear out a good bit quicker than a regular boiler (though would like to hear an expert view).

Lex Luthor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

The cold supply might also be going to taps or the toilet as well as the shower. The feed should go directly to the shower and nowhere else. It shouldn't have too many right-angles in it either.

You can usually check this by taking a short visit to the attic.

If the current unit she has on the wall is just a pump unit, the mains wire may not be thick enough to safely drive the Triton T90si (or Mira or whatever you use). Then again, it may be. Remember that the shower draws around 10Kw, which is 40 amps.

Be sure to get someone who knows what they are doing to install the electic shower.

The combi system ... there is a limit to how much hot water these will throw out. I'd be surprised if they would be able to keep up with a big pump. I would think the solution here is really a bigger water tank, though I could be wrong. Also, I think a combi boiler is going to wear out a good bit quicker than a regular boiler (though would like to hear an expert view).

thanks for clearing that up anton...thought it might be easy enough to do as a DIY but looks like some precautions need to be factored in first...

311

Your best to get at least a sparks to advise on the wiring ,I had to cancel a job lately because the cable I use ,was larger than the cable feeding the house.
Very dangerous .

Avns1s

Lex Luthor wrote:

the current shower already has mains to it...it would be just replacing the existing unit

when you say the unit should have its own cold supply direct from the header tank, would this not be the case already? Where would the current cold water supply be coming from?

Firstly, the mains supply will have to be 6 mm sq T&E depending on the run and the shower chosen, if you've got this then perfect.

On the water supply, it could have a supply from the tank as it which may have spurs for taps which will affect the flow of water and the temp when the shower is in use.

Lex Luthor

The house was built in the last 10yrs so chances are the mains wire is at least 6mm sq T&E. I suppose the water supply is hard to determine but if the rest of the taps weren't used while someone was taking a shower, then it should be ok

eoghan.geraghty

Lex Luthor wrote:

The house was built in the last 10yrs so chances are the mains wire is at least 6mm sq T&E. I suppose the water supply is hard to determine but if the rest of the taps weren't used while someone was taking a shower, then it should be ok

Not necessarily lex. If the previous shower was not heating the water, the chances are its only supplied by a 2.5 sq twin and earth cable.This would be the thickness of your little finger. You need min 6 sq twin and earth, about the thickness of your thumb.If the run to the shower is very long you will need 10 sq cable.
Your new heat and power shower should be protected by a 40A RCBO.

As for the plumbing, sure, if you don't have a dedicated supply direct from the water tank, the shower will work. It just may not have as good pressure, which will annoy you when you really need that good shower after a long day.

A good electrician will be able to advise you on the plumbing requirements, most will do the plumbing aswell.

Lex Luthor

Thanks eoghan, I'll get her to check the cable first

Stoner

Lex,
Sorry for jumping in here again,

But have you cleared up if the water supply is from the mains or from a tank.
I know my original post has been called into question by Mellor, but have you answered that question?

Maybe I'm being stupid, but I dont think the true nature of the water supply has been established, i.e is a gravity fed supply from a tank? or is your (Lex) description that could be out?

If you have a Tank then the Triton T90 type shower will do, but if you dont have a feed from a tank then you need a Triton T80, as stated in my original reply this is the pump shower to use off the mains.
T90 etc do not like mains water as it varies too much

Regardless the wiring advice given by eoghan.geraghty stands

GreeBo

A combi boiler sounds like the business until you realise that if anyone else is using hot water in your house your pressure dies.
So if someone starts the washing up or something while you are in the shower then you lose pressure.
Also you will only really have a max of whatever your mains pressure is.
My mains is a joke, the tank in the attic provides better pressure down stairs than the kitchen sink (mains)

Ronan H

Greebo with the combi system you could have a pump so that would sort out the pressure issue? I think?

Pressure Head

311

Yep it would ,a 2bar single pump would do.
Grundfos make good pumps for single booster.

Lex Luthor

The current shower has 2 water supplies to it, one from the hot water cylinder and one from the tank in the attic.

I had a T80i in my place recently that had 1 water supply direct from the mains, but hers works completely different to that. Her current one has a pump also.

oleras

Head wrote:

Greebo with the combi system you could have a pump so that would sort out the pressure issue? I think?

Pressure Head

you cant add a pump to a combi boiler,it just would not heat the water fast enough for the pump, that being a domestic boiler, im sure an industrial type would work fine......:D . You need a supply of hot water, eg. cylinder to run a pump effeciently.

311

You can increase the pressure with a pump ,to allow for usage of the mains around the house.
No point in having hot water ,if you can't have cold aswell:) . A pressure reducing valve would need to be fitted though.

Ronan H

oleras wrote:

you cant add a pump to a combi boiler,it just would not heat the water fast enough for the pump, that being a domestic boiler, im sure an industrial type would work fine......:D . You need a supply of hot water, eg. cylinder to run a pump effeciently.

That does make sense i suppose, you would need a beast of a boiler to heat all the water that bates out of a pumped shower... Dammit! When am i going to find the ideal solution, infinite hot water, pumped and powerful... :eek:

I must say im learning a great deal from this thread, thats the glory of Boards.ie, loadsa people sharing and caring... I love it!

Feel The Love Head

GreeBo

a combi boiler uses the mains for pressure purposese.
You cant add a pump beyond this to increase the pressure as combi boilers only have a very small storage vessle for hot water and you would drain that and have a very noisy pump within seconds.
Also, depending on how the rest of you house is plumbed (cold tank in attic or not) anyone using any water (hot or cold) will affect your pressure in your shower...

311

Greebo ,I've had to install a pump on the mains a couple of times ,because there wasn't enought pressure .
When you do this ,there needs to be a pressure reducing valve installed before the boiler ,so you have a constant supply
You can have pumped showers from combi boilers though ,there are special fittings available for showers for this.
Combi boilers work best when there is a constant pressure .
Most people going to the trouble of having a combi boiler ,will have a second shower in the house thats electric anyways.

GreeBo

_Brian_ wrote:

Greebo ,I've had to install a pump on the mains a couple of times ,because there wasn't enought pressure

ah yeah, but thats a pump before the boiler so the boiler doesnt know its there
If you are pumping hot water out of a combi boiler faster than your mains is feeding it then you will have problems (I think)

What do these fittings do to prevent this problem?

311

GreeBo wrote:

ah yeah, but thats a pump before the boiler so the boiler doesnt know its there
If you are pumping hot water out of a combi boiler faster than your mains is feeding it then you will have problems (I think)

What do these fittings do to prevent this problem?

They're only restrictors I think ,so the litres per minute dont exceed the boiler flow rate. I think it's a constant rate of 12 litres per minute or 16 litres per minute and depletion in 3 minutes.

Heres a thing about flow rates for shower heads, with the proper shower head you're flying.
http://www.sahra.arizona.edu/programs/water_cons/home/bathroom_shower.htm

GreeBo

_Brian_ wrote:

They're only restrictors I think ,so the litres per minute dont exceed the boiler flow rate. I think it's a constant rate of 12 litres per minute or 16 litres per minute and depletion in 3 minutes.

Heres a thing about flow rates for shower heads, with the proper shower head you're flying.
http://www.sahra.arizona.edu/programs/water_cons/home/bathroom_shower.htm

Interesting article.
But doesnt adding a pump and then adding a restrictor defeat the point a bit?
I mean you add the pump to increase pressure and then you add a restrictor to give you less water.
Wouldnt a restrictor give you higher pressure anyway?

311

I think the restrictors for the showers are just a guarantee of a certain flow rate.
The pump on the system guarantee's a mains pressure that will fill your tank ,let you brush your teeth ,fill the kettle and supply the combi boiler.

Trying to get all that out of a standard 1.5Bar supplied house is stretching it a bit.
putting a pressure reducing valve on before the combi ,means the boiler inlet pressure can be set to the perfect setting.:)

Combi boilers are expensive though and the modulating gas valve works very hard changing from heating to water.

Personally I don't really like combi boilers ,they've a little too many parts for day to day usage.