Should farmers be paid to allow walkers access to their land?

cavedave

There is a discussion over on the outdoor pursuits section about walking across farmland.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055080878
If you have any opinions I would appreciate hearing the farming viewpoint.
David

Glenman

As a farmer I have no problem with people walking through/camping on my land as long as they don't walk through medow field just before cutting and also if they close gates behind them and do not litter behind them

The_Conductor

The issue I have with walkers being allowed access to farm land is the one of potential liability, should someone being harmed or injured while on the private property. It is not right or fair that farmers should be held accountable for what is often stupidity on the part of the public.

Personally I think that there should be acceptance that once you enter someone else's property (either with their implicit permission or without their knowledge), that you are there of your accord and should behave in both a responsible manner, but also take responsibility for your own actions. So- no sueing the farmer when you get charged by a bull, entangled in electric fencing, slip, trip or fall. Likewise the farmer should not be worse off as a result of people visiting his/her farm- so shut the gate behind you, if you notice animals behaving unusually inform the farmer, don't trample meadow/cereal crops etc etc etc.

At the moment things are stacked against the farmer- even if someone enters their land without their knowledge they can be held responsible for the care of that person. Thats bull.

I am not in favour of payment- but I am definitely not in favour of the farmer having a duty of care towards those on his/her land.

Perhaps if financial recompense were to be offered- run it as a subscheme of REPS? Part of the plan could concern the upkeep of walkways across the property? No-one should have any right whatsoever to sue the farmer if they trip and fall though........

Evil Phil

Hope the mods don't mind me joining in here. I'm not against farmers getting money to upkeep paths through there land. If there doing the work it shouldn't cost them anything.

I think most walkers know not to intefere with livestock or crops and I always shut the gate after me.

And yeah, if you're out walking and you get hurt it's your own fault, don't go sueing the poor farmer so you can make a few quid.

emaherx

Evil Phil wrote:

Hope the mods don't mind me joining in here. I'm not against farmers getting money to upkeep paths through there land. If there doing the work it shouldn't cost them anything.

I think most walkers know not to intefere with livestock or crops and I always shut the gate after me.

And yeah, if you're out walking and you get hurt it's your own fault, don't go sueing the poor farmer so you can make a few quid.

As a farmer I'm not against people walking on my land. And most walkers do know not to intefere with livestock and crops but it is the few that don't or more likley don't care that cause problems.

The_Conductor

emaherx wrote:

As a farmer I'm not against people walking on my land. And most walkers do know not to intefere with livestock and crops but it is the few that don't or more likley don't care that cause problems.

As part owner of a forest that was burnt down by an idiot with a camp fire- I'd subscribe to the same train of thought. Unfortunately it only takes one fool misbehaving to ruin a pleasant situation that everyone is happy with. Ps- no, forest fires are no longer an insurable risk in Ireland, primarily because of far too many of them. As for the reconstitution grants to aid in replanting the land- they don't exactly compensate for a 30 year old forest smouldering on the ground and the burnt carcasses of sheep who didn't make their escape in time.

The other end of the spectrum are yobs chasing pregnant sheep for the fun of it- for pity's sake, what the hell is going on.......

Evil Phil

smccarrick wrote:

As part owner of a forest that was burnt down by an idiot with a camp fire- I'd subscribe to the same train of thought. Unfortunately it only takes one fool misbehaving to ruin a pleasant situation that everyone is happy with. Ps- no, forest fires are no longer an insurable risk in Ireland, primarily because of far too many of them. As for the reconstitution grants to aid in replanting the land- they don't exactly compensate for a 30 year old forest smouldering on the ground and the burnt carcasses of sheep who didn't make their escape in time.

The other end of the spectrum are yobs chasing pregnant sheep for the fun of it- for pity's sake, what the hell is going on.......

That's a pretty strong argument for not allowing people access tbh. There is a responsibility on the walking community to protect your propertry if we have access to it, and to take responsibilty for educating the idiots too. Don't suppose you know who started the fire?

The_Conductor

Evil Phil wrote:

That's a pretty strong argument for not allowing people access tbh. There is a responsibility on the walking community to protect your propertry if we have access to it, and to take responsibilty for educating the idiots too. Don't suppose you know who started the fire?

Errr- yes, we know very well who set the fires. Proving it is entirely a different matter though. We can't even accuse the idiot- because who is to say he wouldn't come back and maliciously do the same thing again? You can't keep an eye on every single access point of your property every single minute of the day.......

fastrac

A big worry is the fact that cattle are becoming increasingly aggressive because of the number of farmers working off farm and the cattle having very little human contact.Bulls and suckler cows with calves are capable of killing anybody who comes too near.Several farmers die from injuries inflicted by their own stock annualy so dont be in too much of a hurry into the fields without talking to the owners.

cavedave

A big worry is the fact that cattle are becoming increasingly aggressive

Cows have gone psycho and we are only being wanred now? They could could be chewing on our families with that dazed look they have by the evening.

I think one thing I have learned from this discussion and the one over on outdoor pursuits is that a "right to roam" should always be balanced with our responsibilities to the land and to the farmers who own it.

doctor evil

IMO useing the phrase "right to roam" is not the best idea, the rtr lot in the UK are quite militant and have little room for manouvre.

Vegeta

I think people should be allowed to walk across a farmers land but legislation should be introduced(or if there is current legislation it should be inforced) to protect the farmers investment

For example, every person who goes hill walking or hiking/camping should have some form of insurance (think the NARGCs insurance policy would be perfect here, its 50 euro for the year i think)

This way if a person gets hurt or accidently damages any property/livestock they are covered

djmc

I think the owner should be asked before walking through his land I would feel the same about someone i dont know walking around my garden or back yard as walking through my land

The_Conductor

djmc wrote:

I think the owner should be asked before walking through his land I would feel the same about someone i dont know walking around my garden or back yard as walking through my land

Its a good analogy. How would a lot of the people who believe in their rights to roam the countryside feel, were I to wander into their gardens, pick a few flowers, have a picnic on the lawn, dump my rubbish in a shrub and then leave the side gate open allowing their dog to roam the neighbourhood........

cavedave

IMO useing the phrase "right to roam" is not the best idea,

Yes, I put it in quotes to show I was an expression rather then a belief.

Its a good analogy. How would a lot of the people who believe in their rights to roam the countryside feel, were I to wander into their gardens, pick a few flowers, have a picnic on the lawn, dump my rubbish in a shrub and then leave the side gate open allowing their dog to roam the neighbourhood........

The garden analogy seems forced. Your point about respecting any property you are allowed use is a good one though.

The more I think about the issue the more grey areas arise. Say I bought a 1 metre wide strip of land around the cliffs of moher, dun aengus or newgrange. Should I be allowed prevent access to these cultural sites? From a strict rights of property point of view yes. But I believe in these cases I do not under Irish law have the right to prevent access. Also in cases like this there seems something morally wrong about preventing access inorder to make money rather then to prevent damage.

The_Conductor

For the most part- its not a case of farmers trying to make money from the odd hiker across their property, its a genuine concern for their land and their livestock. The bigger issue though- is one of negligence on the part of people- and the extremely litigious nature of the Irish public at large. Why should a farmer be responsible and liable for the ignorance or stupidity of people entering his land either with or without his knowledge or permission? That is the nub of the issue.

Oldtree

We have a small farm and I am always picking up papers and bottles and the latest car tyres dumped. While i don't object to a responsible person taking an interest in our bit, it just takes one to ruin it for the lot, and to make me angry again at the disrespect.

I would be more inclined for an open day approach, like gardens. Set dates and times, that would be more easily supervised untill a feeling of trust could be built up with frequent visitors. maby somthing like the national trust for farms for card holders only. The trust could charge for the cards and take responsibility for clean ups where necessary and any insurance issues including where property is damaged. I would not wish to be paid, just no damage done. I would not be happy about a right to wander freely on what is essentially a managed landscape.

Furze

cavedave wrote:

But I believe in these cases I do not under Irish law have the right to prevent access.

I understand you have every legal right to prevent access unless there is a public right of way and many of our National Monuments do not have automatic access rights.

Who wants strangers rambling in around the farmyard and outhouses! Pathways would need to be defined with set points of entry/exit
between neighbouring farms.
Disease prevention is also a major concern especially with tourists coming
in from all over the world.

maidhc

As a farmer I would be completely against people wandering around my property, quite simply because they have no reason to be doing so. It is a production farm in east cork, and quite frankly should be of no more interest to anyone than my back garden.

As noted below issues such as frightening livestock, disease prevention, and trampling crops are all very relevant, as is the issue of liability.

There may be some reason for allowing walkers use predefined paths in areas of scenic beauty, and where the farmland is of negligible value, but the farmer should be compensated for their provision, and completely indemnified against any claims.

golden

People should have the right to be able to go to scenic walks. I am originally from Wicklow near Roundwood (sheep country) I have seen what dogs can do to sheep, but still think that people have a right to be able to get to a mountain. Having said that the people should respect the land ie shut all gates, follow the headland and bring home litter that you brought with you.

If payment is made then the landowner has a responsbilty of safe passage and is opening himself to things if the landowner seeks payment there should be a right of way such as a bridlepath like in England that the public can use.

The_Conductor

golden wrote:

People should have the right to be able to go to scenic walks. I am originally from Wicklow near Roundwood (sheep country) I have seen what dogs can do to sheep, but still think that people have a right to be able to get to a mountain. Having said that the people should respect the land ie shut all gates, follow the headland and bring home litter that you brought with you.

If payment is made then the landowner has a responsbilty of safe passage and is opening himself to things if the landowner seeks payment there should be a right of way such as a bridlepath like in England that the public can use.

The difference is that in England you won't get sued if someone does something stupid like gets stuck on a high wall/gate or chased by a bull. A lot of the farms which were defacto local amenities in the Dublin area (think St. Catherines in Leixlip which used to belong to UCD or Laraghcon Farm which was privately owned and is now used to keep horses) used to be open to the public to pick fruit/have picnics/go for walks along the river etc.....)
St. Catherines was closed and sold- when they were sued for not having a 2 mile stretch of the river Liffey fenced off and someone fell in and was injured in the current, Laraghcon Farm was closed when it was sued by someone who got stuck on top of a high partition wall outside of opening hours (they claimed it was unreasonable that it wasn't open before 10AM on a Sunday morning)......

Those are just 2 examples within a mile of where I am at present- there are similar stories all over the country. It is quite simply impossible on the part of farmers to allow anyone access to their properties when they face the possibility of being sued for the stupidity of the public......

Scenic walks are all well and good. People want to have rights to do all sorts of things- however in a lot of cases they refuse to accept that those rights also confer an obligation on their part- an obligation to be responsible both for their own actions and also a responsibility to leave private property in at least as good a condition as they find it.

DEFRA have agreed to limit access to a number of properties both privately held and also held in commonage, in the UK, because of the lack of responsible behaviour on the part of those who visit them. In particular many ancient walkways in the Lake districts are being removed from the public domain (largely because they are being wrecked by yobs on motor cycles) and many lakes and their waterways are being destroyed by jetskies.

There isn't a simple answer to this one. Its all well and good demanding access to scenic areas- but inevitably people refuse to acknowledge responsibility for their own actions- which is precisely why so many farmers are loathe to allow the public access to their lands.

We are in an age where someone else is always to blame when things go wrong. There is a built-in refusal on people's parts to say "Mea-culpa"- that they are at fault if something untowarth happens, as a consequence of their actions. Its part of modern teachings in school- never accept responsibility, someone else will take the blame. Is it any wonder that people encounter locked gates and electric fencing- its simple self preservation on the part of farmers......

golden

I did mention that people should respect the land and know how irresponsible people can be. My point really was that people if they respect the land and know the country code etc and be responsible for their actions should be allowed on only if its to get them to scenic area. I was of the understanding that if a farmer accepted payment he was leaving himself/herself open.

I used to own a horse and always sought permission to ride in fields but would respect the land as farmers have to make a living. There is a lot of commonage where I am from and know what happens ie nearly lost my life on a green horse (was not on my own due to the fact that it was a green horse) and all of a sudden this scrambler came up and did high revs and the horse that I was riding bolted.

Basically if people do not respect the land then they should not be on it.

Its a pity that Ireland has got very litigatious

maidhc

golden wrote:

Having said that the people should respect the land ie shut all gates, follow the headland and bring home litter that you brought with you.

Problem is that while some people will, many will not. I even get people throwing their bags of rubbish over the ditch into my farm from the road. :mad:

Land in Ireland, has a very different significance to England. The culture is different, the size of the holdings is different, the history is very very different, and Irish people as a race are far more protective of their land.

It is one thing for the Duke of xyz to grant permission to roam on his 10000 acre estate that he doesn't even visit, and quite another for Mr. Murphy to allow random punters to wander amongst his dairy cows on his 100 acre farm!

jmayo

Having grown up on a farm and now owning a section of forested land, I will say anytime I ever go hill walking and end up crossing somebody's property there are certain rules I think should be obeyed.
1. you leave everything as you find it e.g gates, fences, etc
2. you do not disturb animals
3. you do not stroll by the farmers house or through their yard, anybody in a city would not like someone going through their back garden as a shortcut.
4. you leave no litter or even food stuffs of any kind including your banana skins, they are not natural to the envirnonment.
5. you do not trample through crops including meadow, work your way around the headland if you had to, but you shouldn't have to in the first place.

Also it is about time that anyone that is not invited onto someone's property is liable for any accidents that befall them.
In other words tough sh**, nobody asked you to be there.

When I was growing up twenty odd years ago if you tripped or fell you picked yourself up and realised you should watch where you were going. Nowadays in this country the opinion is you should find someone to blame rather than yourself and then thanks to lawyers and generous judges you get a nice compensation.

eoghan.geraghty

It seems that everyone here represents a voice of moderation and resposibility, shame that all those involved in sorting the dispute don't.
What is needed is clear leadership and an undertaking of its duties by the govt. ( never likely to happen really ).
I was rambling and camping a few months ago in australia. A parks ranger arrived at the campsite every morning at 7am to check over the place and I got the impression that she would not tolerate any law breaking.
This country earns revenues from tourists wanting to "discover ireland" so money needs to be spent on full time teams of rangers enforcing new laws in relation to hiking,camping,fishing etc.
I don't think farmers should be paid for nothing, but if a lamb is mauled by a dog or suffers any other loss due to ignorant trespassers he should be compensated.
I think hikers should remain as trespassers, but trespassing would not be an offence in itself as long as its not in the farmers yard or vicinity of his house.
Hikers should be responsible for their own insurance and not be able to sue a farmer/landowner.
Just my 2c worth

johngalway

I'm a land owner, both fenced private and commonage, and sheep farmer. I've had to deal with lots of issues being delt with in this thread. From people being where they shouldn't to dogs killing ewes and lambs.

I won't ever accept any amount of money or other to let people across my fenced private land. Nor do I recognise the ridiculous, yet so simply solved, situation that if someone tresspasses on my land and hurts themselves they can sue me. They've got no business being there. The commonage is a different issue I believe. I don't mind people being there as long as the usual applies, no rubbish, dogs, unacceptable behaviour.

Nor would I accept any proposal for the legal drawing up of any "public footpaths" through lands such as they have in the UK. You should see the trouble that leads to for landowners.

I don't have the "right to roam" through your back garden, you don't have the "right to roam" over my farm.

If it were a perfect world I wouldn't need to set the stance out as above. But it's not. People well know that small anumbers of idiots can and do and enjoy doing in some cases large amounts of damage.

For those people who are genuine, not looking to get one up on another in society and just wanting to enjoy themselves responsibly I do feel sorry for both you and I that we are in this situation.