How precise does a tender have to be? An architect related query

Sandymountman

Hi,
We have employed an architect to design an extension for and to restore a house.
We wanted them to do the structural stuff but they are insisting from the viewpoint of their architectural integrity on having control over the final kitting out of the place. They are very nice people but we just don't agree with them on matters of interior design. We are six months down the line with them so we would be extremely costly to go and find another architect.
Why is this of relevance?
Well, they are preparing to put the work out the tender and there are quite a few finer details that have not been decided upon. The positioning and number of electrical sockets and switches, the positioning and number of radiators, the exact layout of the kitchen, the choice of showers.
We heard that changing your mind after the tender is a very costly business with builders, so how precise does a tender have to be.
Any feedback on the tender process would be gratefully received.

secman

Who is employing who here ? You are the client, its your home and you will kick yourself if you say nothing now and regret it later.. Any alterations to the Tender will be deemed EXTRA's and will cost more. Even when you finalise your design , it would be very unusual for no changes to occur, but the trick is to keep them to a minimum. Insist on finalising the design before going out to Tender, keep changes to a minimum.

Yours

secman

De_man

Sandymountman wrote:

We wanted them to do the structural stuff but they are insisting from the viewpoint of their architectural integrity on having control over the final kitting out of the place. They are very nice people but we just don't agree with them on matters of interior design. We are six months down the line with them so we would be extremely costly to go and find another architect.

architectural integrity!!!! good god who's paying who???

let me guess, the fees will be a percentage of the final kit out price:rolleyes:
(anything up to 12%)

Personally if it were me, i'd stop everything get a second opinion on price etc otherwise this'll cost you thousands!!! and you'll have the next 20/30years
to think about the nice people.... you not under any obligation

come'on money is hard to come by, get a second opinion might cost you 200 for a consultation....afterall it's your project doing it this way you'll find yourself "frozen out" of the project and basically you'll have no say in anything!!...

Mellor

De_man wrote:

let me guess, the fees will be a percentage of the final kit out price:rolleyes:
(anything up to 12%)

The fees are normally % of build price, not finish price. Or at least they are supposed, the architect will do the same work regardless of cost of internal finishes.
But I agree that the final decision, especially on the interior, lis with the client

tba

things like the positioning of sockets and rads does not have to be too exact, but definitly get a firm grip on numbers and types of everything as this is the real elements of a tender.

muffler

Plumbing, electrics, sanitary ware etc will all be covered with PC sums.

Take you bathroom for example. There may be a PC sum of €2000 for your bits and bobs and that will be included in the tender. However if you want gold plated taps then you are going to pay extra. If the architect had specifically itemised this in the tender documents then you would have got a price back of €2000 plus the cost of the gold plated taps.

Same difference as they say.

In relation to the architect just remember who is the employer - YOU - and thats in the contract too or at least should be if they use the normal format

galwaytt

they are insisting from the viewpoint of their architectural integrity on having control

...jeez, are these people for real?? YOU are the client and paymaster. YOU are the boss. If you want control of int design - then it's yours, and not for anyone else to say, or do, otherwise.

Interesting you use the phrase 'structural' with an architect - normally, this is the preserve of a specific structural engineer - maybe they have one in the practice, or have hired one for the project - but DO ask. Architects have no qualification on structural stuff.

As for tender, personally, I'd avoid the whole PC sum thing - it's a bloody licence for contractors etc to go nuts. By all means determine how MANY sockets, lights etc. The final positioning of them should not affect cost, really, only you have some onerous conditions on them.

For an extension, a QS might be OTT, but no reason you can't do as much legwork as poss, and hand it to architect as a fait accomplait for them to execute. See nice lights/switches/taps/baths/floors? Write down make/models/colours and specify them on the tender. The more accurate the r.f.q on the tender, the more accurate the quote, and the more accurate your budget.

De_man

Mellor wrote:

The fees are normally % of build price, not finish price. Or at least they are supposed, the architect will do the same work regardless of cost of internal finishes.

i agree with you there, unfortunately for me in a previous project a few years back (too young and not street wise enough) i was charged a percentage of the project cost and the percentage calculated included the pc sums and this even included the landscaping!!!! so for example a 40K kitchen
the architect could earn in the region of 400euro in "commission"

i can see why the architects want to be involved throughout the whole
project, but this one takes it to the other extreme...:D

I'd love to know what would happen if and when the project goes over budget
who'd be responsible for paying the bank then;)

tba

depends on whose fault it is.

Sandymountman

Well, does anyone have experience of the standard architects contract, what items does the architect get a percentage of. How does the breakdown between the build cost and the project cost work.
We're going out for tender. The budget we gave the architect is 300,000. With architects fees on top of that.

squire1

I questioned the structure of Architects Fees a few months ago www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055048753 but I'm still very sceptical about how they charge for their service.

It seems to me that it is advisable to spend a lot of time discussing you fees with your Architect before any work is done. Be very precise about what elements of the build cost are/are not included in your fees. You may end up paying the Architect 10% of the cost of the dog kennell you decide to buy for Spot

galwaytt

Yes, up to 10% of the 300k. For this he'd want to be doing A LOT. Otherwise, you can quantify what you want him to do/not do, and get a fixed price for that.