Votes for Irish citizens living abroad

Gobán Saor

Once again the French Presidential election threw up the sight of thousands of French citizens exercising their electoral franchise at the French embassy in Dublin. In fact, they could hardly cope with the crowds who came to vote and had to get the ok from Paris to allow them to keep the polls open until all those who showed up at the embassy before 6pm could get in to cast their vote. A heart warming display of active citizenship that quite frankly puts us to shame.

Other countries who allow their Irish-resident citizens to vote include the United States (who have been doing it for years) and South Africa. In South Africa's case the emigrant franchise was granted for the very first post-apartheid election. Not for them mealy mouthed excuses about how now would be a bad time to do that sort of thing, or how difficult or expensive it might be or how it might distort the result or how there might be widespread fraud. You know, all the excuses that are trotted out here whenever votes for emigrants is tentatively suggested. Ah no, sure, you couldn't do that; you couldn't trust all them emigrants not to vote for Sinn Fein; they don't pay tax, etc, etc.

Well, actually, you could do that. Why not? Could it possibly be that the main parties who have formed the majority of our governments might not be too keen on the verdict that might be delivered by our emigrant citizens?

ninty9er

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Once again the French Presidential election threw up the sight of thousands of French citizens exercising their electoral franchise at the French embassy in Dublin. In fact, they could hardly cope with the crowds who came to vote and had to get the ok from Paris to allow them to keep the polls open until all those who showed up at the embassy before 6pm could get in to cast their vote. A heart warming display of active citizenship that quite frankly puts us to shame.

Other countries who allow their Irish-resident citizens to vote include the United States (who have been doing it for years) and South Africa. In South Africa's case the emigrant franchise was granted for the very first post-apartheid election. Not for them mealy mouthed excuses about how now would be a bad time to do that sort of thing, or how difficult or expensive it might be or how it might distort the result or how there might be widespread fraud. You know, all the excuses that are trotted out here whenever votes for emigrants is tentatively suggested. Ah no, sure, you couldn't do that; you couldn't trust all them emigrants not to vote for Sinn Fein; they don't pay tax, etc, etc.

Well, actually, you could do that. Why not? Could it possibly be that the main parties who have formed the majority of our governments might not be too keen on the verdict that might be delivered by our emigrant citizens?

The outcome doesn't affect them; therefore no vote...whatever way you feel..this truth is self evident

karen3212

If they are not living here and paying taxes here then no they shouldn't be allowed to vote here.
Army personnel posted overseas though should be allowed to vote(i'm not sure if they are now)

The_Minister

Irish living abroad outnumber the Irish resident.
Also, where do they vote? I don't think our electoral system lends itself to this kind of organisation.

ninty9er

karen3212 wrote:

If they are not living here and paying taxes here then no they shouldn't be allowed to vote here.
Army personnel posted overseas though should be allowed to vote(i'm not sure if they are now)

Irish residents working abroad on contract (such as defence forces) can vote

Scigaithris

Some posters suggest Irish citizens working or living abroad should lose part of their rights to citizenship? Voting? What other rights should they also lose? After certain rights are taken away, when does someone cease to be a citizen?

The problem of voting logistics abroad should have solutions? Other nations have used embassy or consulate visits to verify citizenship and voting.

Paying taxes was used as one qualifier for the vote abroad? This is not a simple argument, but rather complex and problematic (especially if the argument is extended to other categories of voters in this nation using the same reasoning)? For example, if a woman becomes pregnant and takes time off from work to raise children for a few years, should she be disenfranchised of the vote because she no longer pays income taxes (i.e., contributes less to the nation's tax revenues)? Further, if someone is poor or sick and fails to pay taxes in this nation, or pays less tax, then would an extension of the same argument suggest that their vote should count less than the rich?

This whole discussion about potentially disenfranchising Irish citizens of the vote abroad reminds me of the statement in Animal Farm, which I will attempt to paraphrase here... All (citizens) are equal, but some (citizens) are more equal than others?

metrovelvet

So wait - only people who pay taxes should vote?

So... OAPS and the unemployed shouldn't get to vote?

gilroyb

Voting is a duty on citizens, not a right. Some choose not to fulfil this duty, but that's another issue. Citizens abroad are not utilising (m)any of rights that citizens in the jurisdiction have, and so do not have the same duty to vote.

The duty to vote is placed on citizens of whom it can be expected can make an informed choice regarding the society the elected body is to govern over.

karen3212

Hi I said paying taxes and living here.
I should have said, paying taxes here or living here. So yes the unemployed would still have a vote.
Seriously do you think Irish citizens abroad for long periods could be fully informed about how the politicians are performing. My sis has lived abroad for many years, is still an irish citizen, but wouldn't have a clue what is going on here now.

She participates fully in her chosen country and votes there.
Why should she have a say here too?

metrovelvet

There are lots of people who live in Ireland who also dont have a clue what is going on there.

Yes she should be allowed to vote. Voting is based on citizenship not residency.

InFront

gilroyb wrote:

Voting is a duty on citizens, not a right. Some choose not to fulfil this duty, but that's another issue. Citizens abroad are not utilising (m)any of rights that citizens in the jurisdiction have, and so do not have the same duty to vote.

I'm not sure that follows exactly. If I don't exercise some of my rights as a resident, should that diminish my right to a vote assuming that I am a citizen? I don't exercise hundreds of my rights every day of the week.

I find the citizens abroad argument compelling. Does the constitution say anything specific about making voting accessibile to Irish citizens?
Of course, whatever the principles are, in some instances expatraites would have no real business voting (the grandson of an emigrant now entitled to citizenship, for example)

karen3212

Well I don't think she should, and I've asked her about it too and she has said she spends the spare time she has watching the politicians in her new country as the outcome of the election there will affect her.

And what about all of the Irish who have citizenship by virtue of a grandparent, do you relly think they should be voting for the government of a country they know nothing about???

As for people here who don't have a clue, well maybe they'll wake up if the people voted in really hurts them. Where as someone abroad won't really be affected greatly by their decision.

gilroyb

Regarding people in Ireland who aren't informed, I said of whom it can reasonably be expected they would be adequately informed to vote. The fact they are alive and living in the state should mean they'd have some opinion on who they wish to vote for to be honest. If they don't that's not something the government can easily test for. This however is going towards a different arguement.

You say that voting is based on citizenship, not residency. The constitution at least infers differently.

The ratio between the number of members to be elected at any time for each constituency and the population of each constituency, as ascertained at the last preceding census, shall, so far as it is practicable, be the same throughout the country

The reference to throughout the country suggests that it is only with reference to citizens with residency.

Even if those outside the country did vote, which constituency would they be voting in? Where they were born? Where their parents were born? Where their grandparents were born? It's possible that a new 'international' constituency may be possible, but it would have to be immense due to the legal requirement that a constituency gets a specific level of representation based on its number of constituents.

Also, it would probably set the peace process back a few years as the Unionists would be a bit upset that we're giving representation to citizens of Northern Ireland.

Anyway, despite all these practical reasons to disagree with it, in general I'm still sticking with disagreeing on principle.


EDIT: I should add,
You may be happy to hear though that graduates get to vote in Seanad elections even if they've left the county or indeed country, as this constituency is not based on geography, or equality of population. So there are at least two international panels in the Oireachtas.

karen3212

QUOTE=gilroyb]The fact they are alive and living in the state should mean they'd have some opinion on who they wish to vote for to be honest. [/QUOTE]


I agree, some knowledge just seeps in.

OTK

No representation without taxation. Even the unemployed who live here pay indirect taxes - VAT, alcohol duty...

Ireland is different from other countries in that it has a huge diaspora and another million people in NI who can claim Irish citizenship. We are quite happy encouraging these people to think of themselves as Irish if this means that we make a few quid from them in tourism and investment.

It would not be practical if every pretend Irishman around the world were to choose the government of a country they will never live in. They wouldn't have to live with the consequences of their actions.

I met many Irish in the US over the years who had much more pro-republican politrics than your average Irish resident person. I think this sentiment may have put the government off the idea of extending the vote.

That said there must be a compromise such as allowing overseas votes from people who've made an Irish tax return in the past few years or where you've been out of the country for less than a year.

metrovelvet

OTK wrote:

No representation without taxation. Even the unemployed who live here pay indirect taxes - VAT, alcohol duty...

.

So do the refugees and thousands of other residents who are not citizens but residents. And they cant vote.

Wow you guys have a very restricted view on who can vote.

If your a citizen you should be allowed to vote in the nation of your citizenship. It should be an inalienable right.

Zambia

karen3212 wrote:

Hi I said paying taxes and living here.
I should have said, paying taxes here or living here. So yes the unemployed would still have a vote.
Seriously do you think Irish citizens abroad for long periods could be fully informed about how the politicians are performing. My sis has lived abroad for many years, is still an irish citizen, but wouldn't have a clue what is going on here now.

She participates fully in her chosen country and votes there.
Why should she have a say here too?

I can see where your coming from save for a few pionts

1: Each Irish Citizen abroad holds an Irish Passport and is directly affected by Irish Foriegn policy.
2: Some may have had to emigrate and may well wish to return home , hence why deny them the right to vote for the party that they believe gives them that possiblity.
3: Some Irish abroad have every intention of returning to Ireland to retire , live , have kids etc they should have a right to a say in the future goverment they will live under
4: Irish abroad did contribute while they where in Ireland. I would consider a 30yr old who paid tax for 10 years here (then moved to the states) having contributed to the state more than a 30 yr old who has never worked and drawn the dole for ten years.

All my taxs go to the UK, however to claim the Goverment of the South does not concern me as a Irish Citizen in Belfast is simply not the case.

Hagar

OTK wrote:

I met many Irish in the US over the years who had much more pro-republican politrics than your average Irish resident person. I think this sentiment may have put the government off the idea of extending the vote.

Nail. Head.

Zambia

OTK wrote:

It would not be practical if every pretend Irishman around the world were to choose the government of a country they will never live in. They wouldn't have to live with the consequences of their actions.
.

Well then they should not have a pretend passport IMHO , a nation is responsible to its citizens. you cant make citizens then expect not to have them influence your regime.

OTK wrote:

I met many Irish in the US over the years who had much more pro-republican politrics than your average Irish resident person. I think this sentiment may have put the government off the idea of extending the vote.
.

This could be true but its like saying Donegal doesnt vote FF , FG etc lets deny them the vote. In short its un-democratic

OTK wrote:

That said there must be a compromise such as allowing overseas votes from people who've made an Irish tax return in the past few years or where you've been out of the country for less than a year.

Step in the right direction

oscarBravo

A question for those in favour of an emigrant franchise: apart from presidential elections (which were cited in the OP) and referenda, in which constituency should an emigrant be registered to vote?

My brother lives in Dartford, having left Mullingar some 20-odd years ago. Should he be allowed to vote (postal or otherwise) in Westmeath?

OTK

metrovelvet wrote:

So do the refugees and thousands of other residents who are not citizens but residents. And they cant vote.

Anyone who lives here long enough should be allowed to vote. Maybe after a year?

If your a citizen you should be allowed to vote in the nation of your citizenship. It should be an inalienable right.

What if you have dual citizenship? Should you get two votes? And if you are a citizen of one country but live in another, should you be allowed to vote in both countries? What if you receive the benefits of the Irish educational system until you become professionally qualified and then you leave the country to live in a place with higher salaries or lower taxes?

Should Terry Wogan have a vote?
Tony O'Reilly (Lord Dr AJF)?
Michael Smurfit?
Denis O'Brien?
JP McManus?
Dermot Desmond?

Zambia

oscarBravo wrote:

A question for those in favour of an emigrant franchise: apart from presidential elections (which were cited in the OP) and referenda, in which constituency should an emigrant be registered to vote?

My brother lives in Dartford, having left Mullingar some 20-odd years ago. Should he be allowed to vote (postal or otherwise) in Westmeath?

They should have their own Region or failing that vote in the region of last registration.

karen3212

ok I am exaggerating completely here:
My sister lives abroad. Lets say she wakes up in the morning and realizes she hates Ireland and all of us here. So she decides to vote for a complete idiot to harm this country, and she starts campaiging for said person abroad as much as she can. Said idiot becomes very powerful in Ireland and makes life miserable for everyone here. She doesn't have to live with the consequences, we do.

Please wake up, it's very possible her kids who will have dual citizenship could hate Ireland and simply vote to destroy the place.

Zambia

karen3212 wrote:

ok I am exaggerating completely here:
My sister lives abroad. Lets say she wakes up in the morning and realizes she hates Ireland and all of us here. So she decides to vote for a complete idiot to harm this country, and she starts campaiging for said person abroad as much as she can. Said idiot becomes very powerful in Ireland and makes life miserable for everyone here. She doesn't have to live with the consequences, we do.

Please wake up, it's very possible her kids who will have dual citizenship could hate Ireland and simply vote to destroy the place.

You then should consider reducing the amount of Irish passports not go about making second class citizens.

Basic right of a citizen is the vote IMO.

lostexpectation

heartwarming are scared ****less le pen would get into the second round again?

what awas the cut off point to get into second round anybody have a links to the full results?

InFront

The same can be said of old age pensioners, Karen. Think of all the pensioners who are going to die in the next few years. What's to stop them installing a rabid dictator if they get fed up with the way the country is run. What do they care, they won't be around to live with it?
So should the nearly dead be denied the vote?

Originally posted by OscarBravo
My brother lives in Dartford, having left Mullingar some 20-odd years ago. Should he be allowed to vote (postal or otherwise) in Westmeath?

I don't think he should if he's not planning on returning to Ireland, but yeah perhaps he ought to have that right. What's the point in being a citizen otherwise?

If an American with one Irish Grandparent, who emigrated in 1910, comes on holiday here, can he register to vote, vote, and then leave?

oscarBravo

Zambia232 wrote:

They should have their own Region or failing that vote in the region of last registration.

Given the rules on the number of TDs per head of population in a constituency, creating an "abroad" constituency would make for rather a lot of seats.

And I don't see why someone who's lived in various parts of London for 20 years should have a vote in Westmeath. Maybe I'm missing something.

InFront wrote:

I don't think he should if he's not planning on returning to Ireland, but yeah perhaps he ought to have that right.

That would be rather a strange qualification on a franchise.

karen3212

InFront wrote:

The same can be said of old age pensioners, Karen. Think of all the pensioners who are going to die in the next few years. What's to stop them installing a rabid dictator if they get fed up with the way the country is run. What do they care, they won't be around to live with it?
So should the nearly dead be denied the vote?

Good point

No they shouldn't be denied the vote.
Firstly they can't be sure they'll die soon so might have to live with the consequences.
Second How many pensionsers do we have here and is it likely that the nearly dead could swing the vote all by themselves? And how many people abroad could claim Irish citizenship, is it likely they could outvote the population of Ireland.
Third Do you think it would be easier to indoctrinate Irish citizens abroad against Ireland than it would be to do the same thing here.

Zambia

oscarBravo wrote:

Given the rules on the number of TDs per head of population in a constituency, creating an "abroad" constituency would make for rather a lot of seats.

A natural side effect of having a lot of Citizens, would be the net effect of one more constituency with a very large population.

oscarBravo wrote:

And I don't see why someone who's lived in various parts of London for 20 years should have a vote in Westmeath. Maybe I'm missing something. That would be rather a strange qualification on a franchise.

The above would be a better option but unless he/she gives up Irish Citizenship he should have a vote.

oscarBravo

Zambia232 wrote:

A natural side effect of having a lot of Citizens, would be the net effect of one more constituency with a very large population.

I fail to see how that's in the national interest.

Zambia232 wrote:

The above would be a better option but unless he/she gives up Irish Citizenship he should have a vote.

He can have a vote anytime he decides to take up residence here.

If I'm out of the country for the day of the election, I don't get to vote. Doesn't mean I've been disenfranchised.

Zambia

oscarBravo wrote:

I fail to see how that's in the national interest.

He can have a vote anytime he decides to take up residence here.

Its in the national interest that if you have a citizen you allow them to be at least represented.

If they only have one constituency for a foreign vote then they cant overthrow the Goverment as Karen is concerned over as well. But it would also allow them to have their voice heard in the Dail on issues thay feel may concern them.