Votes for Irish citizens living abroad

karen3212

Sorry I still think that if they are not prepared to live under the government they elect then they should be treated like second class irish citizens. Why should they not have to choose which country they vote in, why should they have a say in two countries?

If they get some representation will they not still complain that they are not properly represented(still second class citizens)

Also I think it is possible to fly here, get an address here, register to vote here, fly off and come back on voting day, am I wrong I'm not really sure of this? Of course they'd then have to pay for a flight or two - or just hang around in the meantime. If they were hanging around for a month or so at least some knowledge of the current politicians might seep in.

oscarBravo

Zambia232 wrote:

Its in the national interest that if you have a citizen you allow them to be at least represented.

You'll have to explain why that's the case, because I don't see it.

Zambia232 wrote:

If they only have one constituency for a foreign vote then they cant overthrow the Goverment as Karen is concerned over as well. But it would also allow them to have their voice heard in the Dail on issues thay feel may concern them.

If it's a 67-seater (or whatever), it could have a disproportionate influence.

bonkey

karen3212 wrote:

Why should they not have to choose which country they vote in, why should they have a say in two countries?

What makes you think "they" do? (I being one of the "they" in question).

I have no voting rights where I live, and while i have voting rights in the nation I am a citizen of (Ireland), I have no means to cast that vote.

If they get some representation will they not still complain that they are not properly represented(still second class citizens)

Are "they" complaining? Generally speaking, I see Irish people living in Ireland complaining on behalf of the diaspora, not the diaspora themselves.

Also I think it is possible to fly here, get an address here, register to vote here, fly off and come back on voting day, am I wrong I'm not really sure of this? Of course they'd then have to pay for a flight or two - or just hang around in the meantime. If they were hanging around for a month or so at least some knowledge of the current politicians might seep in.

As far as I know (and my reading of the Constitution seems to support this), its even simpler than that. The issue isn't really that I (or other non-resident citizens) do not have the right to vote. It is that the means to vote is not made available to us unless we return to the country.

Its a subtle distinction, but no-one is being denied any right.

Incidentally...if you argue that people should have voting rights in the nation that they are resident in / paying tax in, then all sorts of foreigners would have voting rights in Ireland and we can't be having that at all at all.

On the other hand, if you argue that people should have voting rights in the nation that they are a citizen of and the means to vote made available to them in other nations, then all sorts of people living abroad (not just emigrants) would have votes in Ireland and we can't be having that at all at all.

So the "solution" is to decide that :
- Irish citizens, in Ireland have voting rights and the means to exercise those.
- Civil servants forced to abroad will, naturally, be made an exception and given the means to vote when posted abroad.
- Tough noogies on the Irish abroad, or the foreigners in Ireland. They all deserve to be unrepresented, right? After all, if a lack of representation was a problem for any of them, sure couldn't they fly home to cast their vote?

gilroyb wrote:

Voting is a duty on citizens, not a right.

I suggest you re-read your constitution. Voting is a right, and not a duty.

You may choose to see it differently, naturally, but that doesn't change the legal reality.

Zambia

oscarBravo wrote:

You'll have to explain why that's the case, because I don't see it.

If it's a 67-seater (or whatever), it could have a disproportionate influence.

It really goes back to the right of a citizen to vote. If 50,000 people migrate due to conditions in Ireland and have to live in the UK. There return is dependant on the conditions improving hence I would like to see them have a voice to meet this end.

The number of seats would be dependant on the amount of people registered from abroad however there would be a cap to ensure they do not have a disproportionate influence.

oscarBravo

Zambia232 wrote:

The number of seats would be dependant on the amount of people registered from abroad however there would be a cap to ensure they do not have a disproportionate influence.

Why not? If they're citizens, with all the rights pertaining thereto, shouldn't they be entitled to full representation?

metrovelvet

karen3212 wrote:

Sorry I still think that if they are not prepared to live under the government they elect then they should be treated like second class irish citizens. Why should they not have to choose which country they vote in, why should they have a say in two countries?

If they get some representation will they not still complain that they are not properly represented(still second class citizens)

Also I think it is possible to fly here, get an address here, register to vote here, fly off and come back on voting day, am I wrong I'm not really sure of this? Of course they'd then have to pay for a flight or two - or just hang around in the meantime. If they were hanging around for a month or so at least some knowledge of the current politicians might seep in.

So your criteria is knowledge?

What do you propose - have everyone take a quiz before they step into the voting booth? I guess you think you have to speak fluent English [or Irish?] also?

If they are citizens of two nations they should be able to vote in two nations.

Question; of the population of Ireland, how many of them are allowed to vote in the elections?

Zambia

oscarBravo wrote:

Why not? If they're citizens, with all the rights pertaining thereto, shouldn't they be entitled to full representation?

Far as I am concerned that gives them full representation.

Whereas the current system gives them none.

Gobán Saor

OK, consider the following scenario. A civil servant, Irish soldier or diplomat posted abroad gets a postal vote. Another Irish citizen posted abroad by his private employer to the same location for the same duration does not.

I defy anyone to justify this disparity of treatment.

The_Minister

Gob&#225 wrote: »

OK, consider the following scenario. A civil servant, Irish soldier or diplomat posted abroad gets a postal vote. Another Irish citizen posted abroad by his private employer to the same location for the same duration does not.

I defy anyone to justify this disparity of treatment.

It's not that hard at all.
The civil servent/soldier/diplomat is there at the direct behest of the state, and is actively and directly engaged in protecting its interests.
That is the main difference.

Hagar

The_Minister wrote:

It's not that hard at all.
The civil servent/soldier/diplomat is there at the direct behest of the state, and is actively and directly engaged in protecting its interests.
That is the main difference.

It has been established that no distinction can be drawn between the State and the citizens which comprise the State. The people of Ireland are the State of Ireland. It can be argued that an individual citizen providing for his/her self and family are equally directly serving the interests of the State in the person of the individual citizen.

Gobán Saor

The_Minister wrote:

It's not that hard at all.
The civil servent/soldier/diplomat is there at the direct behest of the state, and is actively and directly engaged in protecting its interests.
That is the main difference.

I don't buy that at all. The civil servant/soldier/diplomat is indeed all that you say. BUT, while in Ireland, that does not generate extra voting rights for him compared to a citizen who doesn't work directly for the state. So why does that change when he's outside the state?

Victor

Hagar wrote:

It has been established that no distinction can be drawn between the State and the citizens which comprise the State. The people of Ireland are the State of Ireland. It can be argued that an individual citizen providing for his/her self and family are equally directly serving the interests of the State in the person of the individual citizen.

Are you confusing the State and the Nation?

Rippy

I was born and raised in the UK. I have lived in Ireland for the last seven years.
I own a business and a house here and am activly involved in my local community. I do not have a vote even though I am very directly affected by the actions of the Goverment.
When I lived in London I knew many Irish Citizens who had voting rights and exercised them. Why can this not work the other way?
Votes for residents before the diaspora.

karen3212

Who is eligible to vote in elections and referenda? Irish citizens can vote in every election and referendum
British citizens may vote at Dáil, European and local elections
Other EU citizens may vote at European and local elections
Non-EU citizens can vote at local elections only
To be eligible to be included on the Register of Electors, you must:

be at least 18 years old on the day the Register comes into force (15 February)
have been ordinarily resident in the State on 1 September in the year preceding the coming into force of the Register
You are eligible for inclusion in the supplement to the Register of Electors on or after the day on which you reach 18 years of age. You can be included if this birthday falls after the closing date for applications but is on or before polling day. If you are within this category, you should accompany your application with a copy of your birth certificate.

Students living away from home while attending college have the choice of being registered at either their home address or their student residential address.

Right I found this on citizensinformation.ie It just clears up a few points I was wondering about myself.
And my sister who lives abroad doesn't complain about not having a vote here , so I don't assume that it is only they that are complaining. I realize there are Irish citizens abroad who don't have a vote in the countries they are living in, but if you are resident in Germany do you not have the same rights as EU citizens here. I think there is definately a case for residents here who are not citizens having a vote in all our elections.

Lennoxschips

Irish living abroad outnumber the Irish resident.

The number of Irish citizens (passport holders) abroad do not outnumber the number in Ireland. There are something like 3 million Irish citizens living outside the Republic, compared to 4 million resident in Ireland, making a total of 7 million or so Irish citizens in the world. It is an extremely large proportion nonetheless, reflecting the amount of emigration Ireland has undergone even recently. The amount of money that these people sent back to and reinvested in Ireland over the past decades should not be overlooked. However, a lot of us 3 million overseas have it in for our Ireland's corrupt shower of politicians, so don't expect them to give us the vote any time soon.

Voting rights within the EU need to be addressed. I'm surprised they haven't been already. I am 25 and, being an Irish citizen living in the Netherlands, have never voted in a general election. The Dutch won't let me vote because I am a foreigner, the Irish won't let me vote because I am non-resident. (Whereas Dutch citizens overseas can vote by post, but then they don't have 3 million overseas residents.)

Ideally, EU citizens should really be allowed to vote in the EU country in which they are resident. We have freedom to live and work throughout Europe, we have the Euro, etc etc, so pan-European freedom of democracy is the logical next step.

r3nu4l

I'm living in the UK and have been for almost 3 years now. I keep in touch with what's happening at home through reading Irish newspapers, listening to a wide-variety of Irish radio stations online and of course, through the bastion of facts that is boards.ie

I am also active in my local community in England and take an interest in British politics...after all I'm living here, I pay taxes that allow Britain to go to war and I pay National Insurance.

I feel that as I don't pay tax in Ireland it would be unfair of me to impose my will on the taxpayers that would have to live and work under that Government as a result of my vote. On the other hand, I love my country and plan to return in the next few years so would love to be involved through voting.

As you can see I'm very split on that issue but I do believe that if you are ordinarily resident and pay tax in a country you should have a vote in that country.

Alun

Rippy wrote:

I was born and raised in the UK. I have lived in Ireland for the last seven years.
I own a business and a house here and am activly involved in my local community. I do not have a vote even though I am very directly affected by the actions of the Goverment.
When I lived in London I knew many Irish Citizens who had voting rights and exercised them. Why can this not work the other way?
Votes for residents before the diaspora.

Are you a UK citizen? If so you (just like me!) can vote in all elections here. The only thing you can't do is vote in referenda.

A Dub in Glasgo

I have been living in Scotland for the last 14 years. I have voted in every election since I was 18 (age 18-23 in Ireland & the rest in Scotland).

I was annoyed when I first came here that I could not continue to vote in Ireland especially when you see enlightened countries that do give their non-resident citizens a vote.

I would still be annoyed if I was in a country that does not allow foreigners to vote. This guy calls for that

Zambia

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I would still be annoyed if I was in a country that does not allow foreigners to vote. This guy calls for that

Reckon this bloke should just join the BNP and wear his true Colours.

cee_jay

karen3212 wrote:

Who is eligible to vote in elections and referenda? Irish citizens can vote in every election and referendum
British citizens may vote at Dáil, European and local elections
Other EU citizens may vote at European and local elections
Non-EU citizens can vote at local elections only
To be eligible to be included on the Register of Electors, you must:

be at least 18 years old on the day the Register comes into force (15 February)
have been ordinarily resident in the State on 1 September in the year preceding the coming into force of the Register
You are eligible for inclusion in the supplement to the Register of Electors on or after the day on which you reach 18 years of age. You can be included if this birthday falls after the closing date for applications but is on or before polling day. If you are within this category, you should accompany your application with a copy of your birth certificate.

From the above, technically I am eligible to vote, but because I was transferred to the UK with work in February, I can't.
I have no plans of staying here forever, and can see myself moving home before the next elections come up, so these results will affect me.
Just because I am currently living out of the country, why should I lose one of my basic rights of my citizenship?

One of my colleagues is French, and last weekend he went to Edinburgh, where he was able to have his say in the French presidential elections.
He was able to vote in a polling booth in the French consulat.
He thinks its the oddest thing that I can't vote in my country's elections.

karen3212

cAr0l wrote:

From the above, technically I am eligible to vote, but because I was transferred to the UK with work in February, I can't.
I have no plans of staying here forever, and can see myself moving home before the next elections come up, so these results will affect me.
Just because I am currently living out of the country, why should I lose one of my basic rights of my citizenship?

One of my colleagues is French, and last weekend he went to Edinburgh, where he was able to have his say in the French presidential elections.
He was able to vote in a polling booth in the French consulat.
He thinks its the oddest thing that I can't vote in my country's elections.

Is there not such a thing as a postal vote? I'm not sure, but I thought you would be eligible for one.

oscarBravo

cAr0l wrote:

Just because I am currently living out of the country, why should I lose one of my basic rights of my citizenship?

You haven't. Just make sure you're in Ireland on the day of the election.

Lennoxschips

What does paying tax have to do with anything? Are we to deny the unemployed the right to vote as well? OAPs?

And what happens if you are a resident Irish citizen, but are on holiday during an election?

Why are embassy staff overseas allowed to vote but other citizens overseas not?

One of my colleagues is French, and last weekend he went to Edinburgh, where he was able to have his say in the French presidential elections.
He was able to vote in a polling booth in the French consulat.
He thinks its the oddest thing that I can't vote in my country's elections.

Ireland has 3 million overseas citizens (an incredible 75% of the resident population), due to emigration in the last 50 years under various Fianna Fail governments. Could you see Bertie giving us the vote? He'd be mad to, we'd all vote against him. If the French government faced the same situation they wouldn't give their overseas citizens the vote either. Call me a cynic, but if overseas citizens were all Fianna Fail we'd be given the vote tomorrow.

homah_7ft

A lot of posters seem to be focusing on the fact of overseas french citizens being able to vote. It's not so easy when you are using a constituency based system requiring a set number of seats per constituency size. The real politik is that there is no groundswell of opinion to change the current system so if you want to vote you must make yourself present.

rlogue

I've long advocated that there should be a number of Seanad Eireann panels that would be directly elected by the Irish abroad. It would give us a voice in the Oireachtas without directly affecting government policy.

Senator

I'm an Irishman abroad (well, Britain anyway) and as a graduate of Trinity I have a vote in the Senate election, which I treasure. It might not seem much to others but it's my little political link with home and when senators and candidates write to me and keep me upto date it makes me feel that I'm not politically forgotten.

However, there is the "representatiuon without taxation" issue. While I don't pay income tax directly to the Irish exchequer and yet am represented in one of the legislating Houses of the Oireachtas, I do holiday in Ireland every year and bring over loads of my earnings to spend. I also buy Irish products over the Internet and pay subscriptions to Irish publications (e.g. 'Irish Times') so I feel I'm "doing my bit" as best I can for the old country.

Nevertheless, I think anyone of any nationality who lives and works in Ireland and pays income tax there ought to have full voting rights, without question.

r3nu4l

I'm in a very similar situation to Senator, except I'm an NUI graduate

I would agree that I'm home in Ireland every few months and spend a lot of money there. I also buy as many Irish products as possible in the shops (Kerrygold butter, Irish Cheese etc). I also subscribe to an Irish business and financially supporting it...it's called boards.ie

I'm happy to vote in England because I pay tax here and what happens in National and Local Government directly effects my life on a day to day basis. Even after reading all the arguments here I'm not convinced that I should have the right to vote in regional and national elections at home.

What does paying tax have to do with anything? If you pay tax, you contribute to the State finances, therefore, contribute to health, education, environment, infrastructure, business etc. therefore you should have the right to have a say in how that money is spent. The only way for the vast majority of people to influence how money is spent is to vote the party (whose spending policies) they support into power. So, in my view, any taxpayer, regardless of nationality should have the right to vote.

FatherTed

r3nu4l wrote:

I'm in a very similar situation to Senator, except I'm an NUI graduate

I would agree that I'm home in Ireland every few months and spend a lot of money there. I also buy as many Irish products as possible in the shops (Kerrygold butter, Irish Cheese etc). I also subscribe to an Irish business and financially supporting it...it's called boards.ie

I'm happy to vote in England because I pay tax here and what happens in National and Local Government directly effects my life on a day to day basis. Even after reading all the arguments here I'm not convinced that I should have the right to vote in regional and national elections at home.

What does paying tax have to do with anything? If you pay tax, you contribute to the State finances, therefore, contribute to health, education, environment, infrastructure, business etc. therefore you should have the right to have a say in how that money is spent. The only way for the vast majority of people to influence how money is spent is to vote the party (whose spending policies) they support into power. So, in my view, any taxpayer, regardless of nationality should have the right to vote.

But what if you are a 20 year old student who has never worked day in his life?

r3nu4l

FatherTed wrote:

But what if you are a 20 year old student who has never worked day in his life?

I didn't say only tax payers should be allowed to vote, that's what you took from what I said.

I'm saying if you pay (income) tax in a country and are resident in that country you should be allowed to vote in that country. So a foreign national who pays tax in Ireland and is resident in Ireland should be allowed to vote.

As an Irish citizen, living abroad who doesn't pay income tax in Ireland, I'm not sure that I should be allowed to decide what Government gets into power to spend taxpayers money.

FatherTed

I agree about Irish Citizens living abroad, we should not be allowed to vote in Ireland. But voting is a right bestowed by citizenship so I think non Irish citizens living in Ireland should not vote whether they pay taxes or not.